[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[ErrantX]

My opinion on Eighth Seraph's ideas and such:

As far as flurry goes, I think we should explicitly state in either the Blast abilities (preferably) and/or Firestorm that Blast is utterly incompatible with Flurry of Blows. When you use FoB you are not making a simple Unarmed Attack action, you are using the Flurry of Blows special ability. With that in mind, Firebender/monks cannot use both.

And as far as the Admiral "I can't control my firebending and hate magic fish because I'm a total #@$@%" Zhao's uncontrollable firebending? That's specific to him and his inability to not overbend when angry as Zeal stated. Either that, or he just was reckless as hell. Either way.

-X

[Mephibosheth]

First, I cleared up the language on Fire Blast, allowing benders to channel their blasts through unarmed strikes. Check out the OP text and make sure everything's ok.

Next, are we (more or less) agreed on the following text for Blue Fire?

Blue Fire (Template
Base DC: 20
Instead of the normal reds, yellows, and oranges associated with conventional firebending, the fire produced by this seed glows blue and is exceptionally hot.
• Applications: Damage dice for firebending forms using this seed increase by one step (for example, from d6 to d8, or d4 to d6). Additionally, blue fire deals full damage to objects.

Note that I eliminated the reduction in the Deflect Attack penalty to clear up confusion with the Airbending Study feat. If people want to add that back in, I'm happy to do so. I'd like to get this cleared up so we can have a definitive DC for the "Fall of Chin the Great" campaign.

I'm convinced that allowing Rapid Shot to apply to bending blasts wouldn't be too bad. At least, convinced enough to allow it for playtesting. I'll add it as a note in the "Bending Overview."

The idea of uncontrolled blasts is an interesting one, but I'm worried it could easily bog things down. Not only would it require more dice rolls, but it could lead to all sorts of problems with missed Fire Blasts. What if another creature or character is standing behind the target of the missed blast? Is that creature hit? Is there a save involved or would there still be an attack roll? How do you treat non-targeted seeds? Note, I'm not necessarily opposed, just urging caution.

Another possibility would be to represent it as a trait or a flaw. If I remember correctly, Zhao's lack of control is presented as somewhat abnormal. Maybe something like this:

Spoiler

Undisciplined (Flaw)
You lack the discipline to maintain perfect control of the fire you create
Effect: Whenever you miss with a targeted ranged firebending attack, you must make a Concentration check (DC equal to 10 + the Firebending DC of the form) to extinguish the fire. If you fail this check, the attack continues on its current trajectory, extinguishing at the end of your bending range. You must make an additional attack roll against any creature in the trajectory of the attack, though you suffer a 50% miss chance on these attacks. If you successfully hit a creature, the attack ends. You cannot make additional Concentration checks to control the fire if you miss on any of these additional attacks.

So that's my suggestion, if we decide to include this ability. I'll also add a note about how firebending sets flammable materials on fire, adding an element of risk to AoE firebending seeds. Maybe using AoE seeds on wooden boats is Zhao's problem...

Finally, how 'bout adding the following to the Tentacle seed:

"The waterbender must actively control the tentacles she creates, taking a full-round action each round to direct them."

Mephibosheth

[Pirate_King]

I like the look of blue fire

I don't think the effects of uncontrolled fire really need to be explicitly stated, DM's sort of handle those things on their own, and there are already rules for things that get set on fire. generally its a D4 fire damage per round, I think. It's probably enough to say that firebending can ignite flammable objects and leave the rest to the DM.

"Undisciplined" seems like a very specialized flaw. Also, Zhao's lack of discipline is very character based, and to create a game mechanic rather than just letting people play a character seems to be carrying the meta-game too far. I'll let the srd make the rest of my point:

Flaws with primarily roleplaying or story effects have unpredictable effects on game balance.

A flaw must have a meaningful effect regardless of character class or role.

[ErrantX]

I second Pirate King on both of his points.

-X

[Eighth_Seraph]

If we make the flaw apply to all benders, I think it'll be general enough, since pretty much every bender will be using some sort of ranged bending, even if not their Blasts. If that's not considered general enough, just make it apply to all ranged attacks and I think we're set.

Also, I think that controlling the Tentacle seed should be a standard action per turn, rather than a full-round action, with a clause stating that no other bending can be done while the form is active. This is because a full-round action means no movement, except five-foot steps, and this makes a waterbender a sitting duck in any situation, since a 40-foot safe bending range is not really large enough to make it worth the damage to stay still. Eventually someone will bullrush or trip your meat shield, and then you'll get charged at. Rather than this being an effective balancing factor, it might make the seed not worth using.

[Mephibosheth]

Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph

I think that controlling the Tentacle seed should be a standard action per turn, rather than a full-round action, with a clause stating that no other bending can be done while the form is active. This is because a full-round action means no movement, except five-foot steps, and this makes a waterbender a sitting duck in any situation, since a 40-foot safe bending range is not really large enough to make it worth the damage to stay still. Eventually someone will bullrush or trip your meat shield, and then you'll get charged at. Rather than this being an effective balancing factor, it might make the seed not worth using.

I debated between a standard and full-round action for a while. The reason I went with full-round action is that we never see Aang or Katara move while using the Octopus Form. They seem to remain pretty immobile while using it, sacrificing mobility for considerable defensive capabilities (and it is an essentially defensive form). That said, I'm not opposed to changing it to a standard action with the qualifier that no other bending can be done while the form is active.

Another waterbender-related issue I just thought of pertains to Ice Shards. Specifically, we see the seed used multiple times to pin an opponent to a wall, floor, or other structure. However, I looked at the Ranged Pin feat, and it has some pretty hefty prerequisites. I could easily see waterbenders benefit from taking all of these feats, but they're pretty feat-starved, and Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Ranged Pin, not to mention other feats to enhance grapple modifiers, are substantial investments when you only get 8 feats over 20 levels. I know Ice Shards is a powerful seed, but do you think it would be unreasonable to add a high DC application that allows for ranged pins without the feat? I'm envisioning something like:

Entraping Shards (DC 25): By maneuvering shards of ice with pinpoint accuracy, powerful waterbenders can pin an opponent to a hard surface. If she succeeds in a ranged attack using the Ice Shards seed, a waterbender can initiate a grapple attempt instead of dealing damage. The target must be within 5 feet of a wall, tree, or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck and must be wearing some sort of clothing, armor, or other accoutrement. To break free, the victim must make a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape Artist check as a standard action. By increasing the DC of the form by 10, a waterbender can cause the ice shards to originate high in the air, allowing her to pin opponents to the ground instead of to a vertical surface.

What do you think?

[Mephibosheth]

Sorry for the double post. I want to make sure people see this.

I'm still accepting submissions for both playtesting campaigns. The Fall of Chin the Great is accepting submission until February 11, and the playtesting arena is always accepting submissions. There are only a few people who have expressed interest in the arena, and none who have submitted character sheets. If this isn't something that people are interested in, I'll happily abandon the arena, but I want to make sure people know that it's there.

If you're interested in either of these campaigns, hop on over to the "Finding Players" forum and sign up. Both threads have an [Avatar d20] tag in the title.

Mephibosheth

[ErrantX]

Adding entrapping shards to Ice Shards does already make an awesome seed better, but at the same time, it's such an essential seed for waterbenders who at all think they might get into a fight or three. I don't have a problem with it because we obviously have precedent, but it does make me think that we may be overloading the seed.

But what the hell, add it anyway! :) If it's broken we can fix it after.

-X

[Guyr Adamantine]

I got an idea! We make Ice Shard the new Water Blast, and Water Blast becomes a seed.
It might sound stupid, but since any Waterbender would take it, perhaps it is its real place.

[Ceiling009]

Make it a template? I mean, as a mechanic, it works if you add it to any form, thus removing possible problems with thing like Freeze + Wave. If it's added to ice shards, it works too; as i envision the ranged pin feat something you can do with any weapon that's ranged, while this use is more based on the fact that the better you can control water, the better your aim.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

I debated between a standard and full-round action for a while. The reason I went with full-round action is that we never see Aang or Katara move while using the Octopus Form.

I meant to add this in my last post: Octopus Form should rightfully be full-round, since it's pretty clearly a last-ditch defensive technique, but the normal use of Tentacle, in my opinion, should only require a standard action.

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

Entraping Shards (DC 25): By maneuvering shards of ice with pinpoint accuracy, powerful waterbenders can pin an opponent to a hard surface. If she succeeds in a ranged attack using the Ice Shards seed, a waterbender can initiate a grapple attempt instead of dealing damage. The target must be within 5 feet of a wall, tree, or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck and must be wearing some sort of clothing, armor, or other accoutrement. To break free, the victim must make a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape Artist check as a standard action. By increasing the DC of the form by 10, a waterbender can cause the ice shards to originate high in the air, allowing her to pin opponents to the ground instead of to a vertical surface.

Problem: A DC 25 can be done by a level 4 bender with 16 Wisdom taking 10 on a Waterbending check. Make it DC 30 and I think it'll be alright.

[ErrantX]

Yeah, raising the DC after seeing that break down by Eighth Seraph would be a good idea. 30 at minimum, makes it a little too easy at lower level.

-X

[Ceiling009]

Actually, with Focused Bending, Skill Focus, and Synergy bonus, and 16 Wis -> that's a 12 modifier, 14 if it's at night (19 with a full moon?) and taking a 10 means you only need 3 ranks. At 25. at 30; 7 ranks. A level 4 waterbender can still reliably do it. Ranged Pin seems to be quickest gotten at level 6. I'm perfectly okay with a level 4 bender being able to do it, cause it still involves a ranged attack hitting... which at level 4 is a BaB of 3. 35 DC for the ground pin requires being level 9. Ground Pin DC at 40 means level 15 minimum.

[endoperez]

Originally Posted by Ceiling009

Make it a template? I mean, as a mechanic, it works if you add it to any form, thus removing possible problems with thing like Freeze + Wave. If it's added to ice shards, it works too; as i envision the ranged pin feat something you can do with any weapon that's ranged, while this use is more based on the fact that the better you can control water, the better your aim.

I'd like to point out that there doesn't seem to be Waterbending ability to direct a wave of water at the opponent and then freeze the wave, leaving the enemy trapped inside. In the series, Zuko was trapped this way in the Spirit Oasis while he was trying to catch Aang.

It seems like Wave (Breaker) to push an enemy against a wall combined with an Entrapment seed would produce the exact effect used against him.

However, I'm not part of the project, just a fan, and if I missed a Waterbending ability, please disregard.

[Guyr Adamantine]

I'd like to point out that there doesn't seem to be Waterbending ability to direct a wave of water at the opponent and then freeze the wave, leaving the enemy trapped inside. In the series, Zuko was trapped this way in the Spirit Oasis while he was trying to catch Aang.

It seems like Wave (Breaker) to push an enemy against a wall combined with an Entrapment seed would produce the exact effect used against him.

However, I'm not part of the project, just a fan, and if I missed a Waterbending ability, please disregard.

The Class Feature youv are is Heat/Chill. It was considered so basic it shouldn't be a seed.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Now, there's something that's been bothering me for a while now. Why do benders get Wind Shaping, Move a Rock, Play with Fire, and Manipulate at second level? It seems to me that these abilities are the basic foundation for all bending and the first thing that acolytes learn. If anything, the blasts or Deflect Attack should be pushed back. However, since blasts are necessary for any bender to survive past level one, I would suggest that Deflect Attack be pushed back a level. I can't imagine even an apprentice firebender being unable to hold a flame in his hand, so I figure that it should be the very first thing that all benders learn to do.

[ErrantX]

Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph

Now, there's something that's been bothering me for a while now. Why do benders get Wind Shaping, Move a Rock, Play with Fire, and Manipulate at second level?

*ponders the irony for a moment*

I don't know why, I see what you're saying. Perhaps it should be moved down to level 1.

-X

[Ceiling009]

I don't know, but with Katara for example, she didn't quite know how to move water with as much finesse... but she could at least blast people with water; especially in the first few episodes of the show. Though theoretically, blast and manipulate/freeze should be at first level, and deflect at second, as blast means that you can already sort of control your element, while deflect seems to show more mastery and finesse.

[Pirate_King]

I'm not sure Katara had class levels at the beginning of the series. I don't think she participated in any direct combat until The Waterbending Scroll

[FlyMolo]

Originally Posted by endoperez

I'd like to point out that there doesn't seem to be Waterbending ability to direct a wave of water at the opponent and then freeze the wave, leaving the enemy trapped inside. In the series, Zuko was trapped this way in the Spirit Oasis while he was trying to catch Aang.

It seems like Wave (Breaker) to push an enemy against a wall combined with an Entrapment seed would produce the exact effect used against him.

However, I'm not part of the project, just a fan, and if I missed a Waterbending ability, please disregard.

The Wave/Freeze combo was used all the time in the Playtesting arena. It was the win button for waterbenders, as ice shard awesomeness didn't work so well when everyone had DR 3/- and cold resistance.

As far as ranged pin goes, I really like it as a high-DC version of Ice shards(ranged). I think that's simple, to the point, and accurate. DC 30 for vertical pinning, minimum. DCs between 20 and 25 are easy to get, within a few levels. DC 30 is hard, and DC 40 requires at least 15, if not close to 20, levels.

[Pirate_King]

Before I start building my playtesting character, is the website up to date with everything we've agreed on here?

also, I'd like to bring up the create part of blades of fire. We haven't actually seen anyone do that aside from daggers and whips. Really, those are the only weapons that make sense to be able to create from fire. It's non-magical, so even the druid's flameblade doesn't really set precedent.

[Mephibosheth]

The website should be up-to-date. I added rules for quickened bending, increasing attacks, and a few new seeds this morning. If there are any glaring omissions, please let me know.

I'm not opposed to limiting the appearance of the Blades of Fire seed to daggers. Really, since the blades deal damage as Fire Blasts, the exact form of the weapons is immaterial unless you get into reach weapons and whatnot. Unless anyone has major objections, I'll make the change.

Mephibosheth

[Pirate_King]

The base DC for blue fire is still 30 on the website, and I don't know if we finalized the quickened bending rules, but I don't see those anywhere.

Also, it was brought up earlier that the endure elements change for firebenders made Fire in the Stomach a pointless seed. Also, in the form creation forum, there was a use of it that was kind of cool in concept and sort of fit the canon, but didn't actually work with the rule that we have. Is there a way we can change fire in the stomach to make this form possible?

Originally Posted by ErrantX

Inferno Blast
Fire Blast / Fire in the Stomach / Intensity: DC 34+

By bringing in the strength of firebending, one's breath, and use it to stoke the flame within, a firebender can greatly intensify the strength of his fireblast. By turning the fire blast into a full round action, he can increase the blast's damage. The blast does the firebender's base fire blast damage +1d6, plus an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 4 that the firebender beats the target DC on his firebending check.

[Mephibosheth]

Originally Posted by Pirate_King

The base DC for blue fire is still 30 on the website, and I don't know if we finalized the quickened bending rules, but I don't see those anywhere.

Thanks for catching that. I've reduced the DC on the website. Also, check the bottom of this page for rules on quickened bending.

Originally Posted by Pirate_King

Also, it was brought up earlier that the endure elements change for firebenders made Fire in the Stomach a pointless seed. Also, in the form creation forum, there was a use of it that was kind of cool in concept and sort of fit the canon, but didn't actually work with the rule that we have. Is there a way we can change fire in the stomach to make this form possible?

Again, I don't necessarily think the Endure Elements makes Fire in the Stomach completely redundant. There's still the breath holding benefit, plus the fact that Fire in the Stomach functions at any temperature, whereas Endure Elements bottoms out at 0 degrees. That said, I'm not really worried about Fire in the Stomach becoming obsolete, if it comes to that. It was always a pretty weak seed and I like the new energy resistance progression.

I can't remember where the show indicates an ability like Inferno Blast is possible, but I'm not necessarily opposed to its use. Any screenshots? Also, combining forms is very much a judgement call on the part of the DM. If I were DM'ing and a player presented that idea to me, I might very well allow it. We haven't changed Fire in the Stomach since it was written, and the fluff behind it seems to fit well with Inferno Blast, even if the crunch doesn't (and never really has).

[Pirate_King]

I don't have any screen shots, but X and Dolphin Safe were referencing Crossroads of Destiny.

[ErrantX]

I was referencing the huge Haddoken-like fire blast that Zuko did at Aang here: http://screenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/220/502.jpg and here: http://screenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/220/503.jpg

-X

[Pirate_King]

Something I just noticed; is there a reason airbenders have a better defense bonus than all the other benders? They've got their extra dodge bonus as it is...

If any different, it should be lower, closer to the monk bonus (column A), and the earth benders should have the advancement that airbenders currently have. The defense bonus advancements are based on the type of armor the class is proficient in(no armor proficiency: A, light armor:B, Medium armor:C, Heavy armor:D), and to give a better advancement to a class that has less armor contradicts the workings of the variant.

this is my last edit, I promise

In addition to using his Fire Blasts to attack from range, a firebender can channel his blasts through his unarmed strike, dealing Fire Blast damage in addition to unarmed strike damage for each blow. A firebender must make a successful melee attack in order to channel his Fire Blast.

We should probably cut out the bold bit if we're not going to let firebender's apply this to attacks gained through TWF.

[Eighth_Seraph]

It'll need some rewording, yes.

...Whoa. I think we've solved everything on the to-do list. This is a first since, like, August of last year. Could I suggest some fleshing out for the benders, then? Minor things just to give the classes flavor; for example:

• An airbender ability making use of the fact that air is invisible even as it moves, perhaps using Sleight of Hand
• Small skill bonuses to reflect where the bender learned his bending, perhaps modeled around the UA monk style variant
• Rules for combat-ready bending material (i.e. the anti-air rocks on the earth king's palace, the giant coins in that one general's courtyard)

Thoughts, ideas?

[Copacetic]

Meh, Me thinks the variants on where you learned are a ltle silly, but then gain thats just me. Also, Rock is rock is rock is rock. So no, to the second and no to the third. First is fine with me.

[FlyMolo]

Stuff like the coins should have a few rules, just something along the lines of "They're big. About 15 feet wide, and have a hole in the middle about 5 feet wide. If they're flung at you, they deal X damage, reflex save to jump through the middle and take no damage."