Hmmmm... that casts a new light on the scene where Sizemore tried to stop Bogroll from waking Parson -- he thought it was against Parson's interests, and Sizemore himself probably has enough flexibility to bend or break orders under those circumstances, but Bogroll apparently doesn't.
And, of course, it fits Wanda's "I'm allowed. I'm convinced it will lead to your destruction." comment way back at the beginning of the story.
So, another existential moment for Parson. I'd say he definitely had more freedom at Kinkos because he could always walk out without fear of being "disbanded". I mean, who knows what actually would happen. Yeah, I've thought all along that Wanda has a very big part in Parson's future, he does need her.
And what the heck is that reading at the top... some kind of panda-monkey?
"What the Boop." Heh. I didn't understand that right off.
Anyway, this klog sheds some light on how betrayal works. Apparently it is very very difficult for a chief warlord to betray his master, but Stanley did suspect Parson of doing just that. Maybe Stanley actually did betray King Saline and was successful only because he was able to do it indirectly.
Perhaps a direct betrayal gets you disbanded automatically, but an indirect one only gets you disbanded if your overlord finds out.
so erfworlders have even their minds messed up by erfworldian magic, rough. So this may explain why parson hasn't considered surrender yet. so wanda was messed up cause she used unnatural thinkamancy?
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I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
just when you though Erfworld was really good, they throw a another concept to boggle your mind. Congrats to the script for being really well though and so compelling.
Still, there's some points left as mentioned before. Is this is so, how could Stanley have betrayed Saline? Or is this like the 3 rules of robotics that your own initiative can make you kill him because you believe that killing him is the best for his cause? Those 3 rules sure feels like it (rules of robotics).
And the problem with free will is, if there's no free will, how can units disobey? I'd rather believe that they have free will to some extent, but they are compelled to frame it within those 3 rules (heh, partial free will :P).
Also, it would be funny if what Parson actually desires, was no free will but lead armies :P
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I think they likely have a random number generator determining whether or not the unit will ultimately betray the ruler. They are not betraying the ruler on their own initiative, they are following the secret GM`s rolls.
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Why are you guys combining DD and Logic anyway?
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Originally Posted by Mogotoo
In the hope that we can neutralize DD in the same way that a base neutralizes an acid?
Stanley was promoted to Heir which basically make him something like Prince Ansom. I'm pretty sure royals or heirs have total free will.
By the way, I guess thats why they cant surrender. Only the ruler (Stanley) can do that and we know it will never happen. As long as Stanley want them to fight, they have too. But I wonder what happens if Stanley get killed. Are they automatically disbanded or they can join another side?
We also know now that killing Ansom wont do anything. As long as the King live, the troops will continue to fight even without their Prince.
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Stanley was promoted to Heir which basically make him something like Prince Ansom. I'm pretty sure royals or heirs have total free will.
Actually I doubt that heirs have totally free will. That would make it MUCH to dangerous to generate an heir. They would have the motive and capability to perform a coup. Just look how prevalent familial regicides are in both fiction and history. Ansom is acting on his own initiative to do what he believes is best for his king. Elimination of a threat to the kingdom, elimination of a threat to the social dominance of royals, and potential expansion of territory (note that Jetstone seems to be the only human kingdom involved in the coalition; the other factions seems to be city-less creatures).
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Originally Posted by Querzis
We also know now that killing Ansom wont do anything. As long as the King live, the troops will continue to fight even without their Prince.
Not necessarily. King Jetstone may not care about the war as much as Ansom does. Also, part of the idea was to eliminate his leadership bonus. His bonus seems to be at least as high as Jillian's 9, possibly higher. Also, if they could take out Ansom, they might be able to claim the Arkenpliers for themselves, which would both weaken the coalition and strengthen GK.
It's Sizemore (in a tunnel, illuminated by the eyebook). That may be what Parson was referring to when he mentioned talking to him.
but, wouldn't the eyebooks stop working now that there are no link between the trimancers? I though that wanda implied that.
I guess they were just done buy the mancer link but it doesn't need them to work then
edit: Querzis, that could be if that Heir Status override the Chief Warlord status, but we don't know how those rules apply, and IMO it's not coherent that a Heir stops being Chief Warlord. It can be that it doesn't have the same restrictions.
Oh, also this strips explains a bit why Ansom is so picky about royalty. They are like "above" the rest of the units in Erfworld.
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Last edited by PePe QuiCoSE : 02-02-2008 at 12:30 PM.
but, wouldn't the eyebooks stop working now that there are no link between the trimancers?
Why? Would your TV stop working if the factory where it was built burned down?
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Oh, also this strips explains a bit why Ansom is so picky about royalty. They are like "above" the rest of the units in Erfworld.
Parson mentioned earlier that royals have slightly better stats and level up faster. That confirms what I speculated earlier (in Erfworld, royals really are superior).
but, wouldn't the eyebooks stop working now that there are no link between the trimancers? I though that wanda implied that.
I guess they were just done buy the mancer link but it doesn't need them to work then
The linked 'mancers created the eyebooks, but the eyebooks are independent magic items, like Jillian's sword and the Jetstone hats.
A lot of people are/were confused that the table was a magic item. It was not. It was just a convenient physical object for the 'mancer-link to project illusions onto. I doubt they needed a table at all, but I'm guessing it was there already from pre-link strategy sessions, kind of like what the coalition leaders use.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This also makes it seem that I was wrong about a Wanda-Maggie-Sizemore link. It seems that Parson is intending Sizemore to lead his golems and Wanda to lead the uncroaked. I wonder who's going to lead the living troops, or if they will just be split up amongst the uncroaked and golems.
Unless a dirtamancer/croakamancer linked with a thinkamancer* can confer it's leadership bonus 'by remote'. Unlikely, but hey, who knows. * "with a thinkamancer" is redundant, but stated for clarity
No, I'm still betting that the coalition air forces are going to be going after Stanley, leaving the ground forces to pound on GK. Given that there will then be 1-2 choke points (the road, and possibly where the tunnels emerge, either into the city or at the base of the mountain), I'm thinking Parson is going to break one of the 'rules' of standard Erf strategy and have two mega-stacks: Wanda with the Uncroaked, and Sizemore with the golems, possibly also with the Gobwins for numerical support and additional tunnel mastery. It wouldn't surprise me if Parson, Maggie, and maybe Bogroll were the only ones not in those mega-stacks. Or maybe seeing it is implied that the uncroaked get more of a bonus from a croakamancer than the golems get from a dirtamancer, perhaps Parson will put his boop directly on the line and stand with Sizemore.
The size of the stacks would keep the casters relatively safe, because the attacking ground forces would have to work through the entire stack to get to the leader. Of course, even one opposing air attacker could be devastating at that point...
WHOA! Just had a truly landscape-altering thought. Parson could order Sizemore to deliberately sink/bury the city. That way there would be no way for air forces to attack. That could also reduce the chokepoints to just the tunnel entrance.
Ok, that gives 3 possible reasons for Sizemore to look so shocked in that picture:
Golems get a benefit if they're lead by a Dirtamancer. Uncroaked get a benefit if they're lead by a Croakamancer.
We have a non-functional Croakamancer. Bind her to the functional Dirtamancer and let the gestalt lead the forces.
No wonder Sizemore looks unhappy.
__________________ Alignments are objective. Right and wrong are not. Good: Will act to prevent harm to others even at personal cost. Evil: Will seek personal benefit even if it causes harm to others. Law: General, universal, and consistent trump specific, local, and inconsistent. Chaos: Specific, local, and inconsistent trump general, universal, and consistent.
Parson needs to think things through more carefully:
Can't withhold information
Parson already knows from his first meeting with Stanley that he can tell a bald faced lie (see #20: "Where I'm from, the highest term of respect is. . .'tool.'") to Stanley without any consequences as long as Stanley doesn't catch on. Furthermore, Wanda pretty clearly knew that Parson was lying and didn't call it to Stanley's attention (though in her case she may have been able to rationalize it as being in Stanley's interest not to disband the warlord he just spent 350k schmuckers on). He's clearly subject to direct orders, but he seems to have a fair amount of leeway in other cases, for whatever reason.
Parson needs to think things through more carefully:
Can't withhold information
Parson already knows from his first meeting with Stanley that he can tell a bald faced lie (see #20: "Where I'm from, the highest term of respect is. . .'tool.'") to Stanley without any consequences as long as Stanley doesn't catch on. Furthermore, Wanda pretty clearly knew that Parson was lying and didn't call it to Stanley's attention (though in her case she may have been able to rationalize it as being in Stanley's interest not to disband the warlord he just spent 350k schmuckers on). He's clearly subject to direct orders, but he seems to have a fair amount of leeway in other cases, for whatever reason.
There is a significant difference between not offering unsolicited info, and not answering direct questions. For example, you may know there are strong enemy forces on the left flank, but if you aren't asked about them, you are under no compulsion to tell. And I can see some wiggle room, too. If asked, "Are the enemy planning to attack our right flank?", you could answer "no" since you know they intend to attack your left flank, and not be compelled to tell what you really know.
Put another way, you have to answer questions honestly (and poorly phrased questions may allow you to do so without revealing much), and if you aren't asked, you don't have to tell.
There are two zombified warlords left. For a bit of tactical flexibility, perhaps I would divide the living troops into two big stacks, each led by one of those warlords.
For using those, I already speculated about setting a trap inside the walls of GK.
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This certainly shines new light on Sizemore's reaction to Parson's complete lack of Obedience on page 76: what Parson was saying, was to Sizemore, was most likely as alien as someone saying that they can just jump four-dimetionally at will is to someone on Earth.
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Originally Posted by eilandesq
Parson needs to think things through more carefully:
Can't withhold information
Parson already knows from his first meeting with Stanley that he can tell a bald faced lie (see #20: "Where I'm from, the highest term of respect is. . .'tool.'") to Stanley without any consequences as long as Stanley doesn't catch on. Furthermore, Wanda pretty clearly knew that Parson was lying and didn't call it to Stanley's attention (though in her case she may have been able to rationalize it as being in Stanley's interest not to disband the warlord he just spent 350k schmuckers on). He's clearly subject to direct orders, but he seems to have a fair amount of leeway in other cases, for whatever reason.
Parson was never asked what his world's highest term of respect was: he volunteered that information. I would assume that units can lie (as in, they possess the ability to do so), but if they are questioned, they must (in the same way that someone from Earth must abide by the law of gravity) answer truthfully; it seems that while they cannot hide anything from their Ruler once s/he asks, they are under no obligation to volunteer that information before asked for it. While, Erfworlders can lie while volunteering information, the best they can do while answering questions asked, is hedging.
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I would assume that units can lie (as in, they possess the ability to do so), but if they are questioned, they must (in the same way that someone from Earth must abide by the law of gravity) answer truthfully; it seems that while they cannot hide anything from their Ruler once s/he asks, they are under no obligation to volunteer that information before asked for it. While, Erfworlders can lie while volunteering information, the best they can do while answering questions asked, is hedging.
That also fits Wanda admitted that the "Perfect Warlord" would not be unbeatable in response to Stanley's direct question. (OTOH, ordinary prudence would require admitting that up front -- if Stanley expected Parson to be infallible, his reaction the first time he failed would have been even worse than it actually was.)
There is a significant difference between not offering unsolicited info, and not answering direct questions. For example, you may know there are strong enemy forces on the left flank, but if you aren't asked about them, you are under no compulsion to tell. And I can see some wiggle room, too. If asked, "Are the enemy planning to attack our right flank?", you could answer "no" since you know they intend to attack your left flank, and not be compelled to tell what you reall
I don't see how that would be taking initiative in the service of your Ruler...
Why oh Why did we need to open this bloody can of worms!? I could ramble for pages on this particular little cerebral conundrum. But I shall try to skip all that and cut straight to what I see as the heart of the matter.
Consider the source. All this information came from Maggie who is about the coldest fish imaginable, and a thinkmancer to boot. I see Maggie as a plain black and white thinker. She doesn't see all possibilities.
I would argue that this whole free will thing is a lot more complicated than Maggie will ever realize.
Golems get a benefit if they're lead by a Dirtamancer. Uncroaked get a benefit if they're lead by a Croakamancer.
We have a non-functional Croakamancer. Bind her to the functional Dirtamancer and let the gestalt lead the forces.
No wonder Sizemore looks unhappy.
Spoiler
Hard as I am on Parson, and will likely continue to be for the forseeable future, I don't think he'd do that.
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"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
Parson mentioned earlier that royals have slightly better stats and level up faster. That confirms what I speculated earlier (in Erfworld, royals really are superior).
I'm guessing that random variation in stats has a bigger effect (or at least causes an overlap between normal unit stats and royal unit stats.) than royalty otherwise, Ansom could take one look at Jillian's stats and say "Hey, you have stats A,B,C,D and special abilities X,Y,Z. You must be a royal."
"Casters are too rare and valuable to risk"
I wonder if the rare part might imply that casters simply can't be stuck in a queue and popped, otherwise wouldn't difficult to replace be a better term? That also might explain the lack of lookamancers on Ansom's team.
A huge bonus for the uncroaked units; if this scales with level or casters power it, Ansom might be in for surprise if Wanda leads the troops. She is an incredibly powerful caster; she was able to cast a uber-findamancy spell and she isn't even a findamancer. I'm guessing Sizemore is fairly powerful too, (He built the defenses for the strongest defensive position the known world.)
Scary magic: hopefully Parson could use that to surprise Ansom. What is this scary magic anyway?
I wonder how much of the natural magic affects Parson. We know he can't swear, but he also has no visible stats. So assuming that those are both examples of natural magic, it appears he is partly affected. (assuming Parson is actually prevented from swearing, it could simply be the air that is prevented from carrying swear words.) Also if flying is magic powered that explains why air units can't simply bomb targets in to nothingness; there is an arbitrary flight ceiling.
WTB -I think Parson should try to abbreviate "where's the fudge" and see what happens.
Well more answers and more questions...
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Spytrap III, Ultimate Kaos II, Monty Python, Twin Village, Invasion of the Zombies: Outbreak, Vampires III
Hard as I am on Parson, and will likely continue to be for the forseeable future, I don't think he'd do that.
Spoiler
[Kosh]: "If we are a dying people, then let us die with honor, by helping the others as no one else can.
[G'Kar]: I don't understand.
[Kosh]: Because you have let them distract you. Blind you with hate. You cannot see the battle for what it is. We are fighting to save one another. We must realize we are not alone. We rise and fall together. And some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved.
__________________ Alignments are objective. Right and wrong are not. Good: Will act to prevent harm to others even at personal cost. Evil: Will seek personal benefit even if it causes harm to others. Law: General, universal, and consistent trump specific, local, and inconsistent. Chaos: Specific, local, and inconsistent trump general, universal, and consistent.
"Casters are too rare and valuable to risk"
I wonder if the rare part might imply that casters simply can't be stuck in a queue and popped, otherwise wouldn't difficult to replace be a better term? That also might explain the lack of lookamancers on Ansom's team.
Hmm, this offers another possible reason Banhammer would have popped a croakamancer. Perhaps you can choose to pop a caster, but you can't choose their specialty... so you might want a Carnymancer and end up with Dittomancer.
Caledonian, you make such bizarre posts. I remember you because you changed your sig to it's current status right after we argued about whether Miko was Chaotic good or Lawful evil.
"Some must be sacrificed so that all can be saved?"
What is it that convinces people to blend together the polar opposites of fatalism and hope? One or the other must be a lie. Or to be more specific: one or the other must be chosen. They are exclusive and cannot coexist. Parson is not a raging nutcase, so he's not going to sacrifice anyone for the greater good.
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94 parson's Klog pg 10
