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Old 08-22-2008, 05:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
Chronos
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Default Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Introduction:
Spoiler

Skills:
Spoiler

Ability scores:
Spoiler

Races:
Spoiler

Class abilities:
Spoiler

Classes:
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Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
3.x Compendium of Healing

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Old 08-22-2008, 05:50 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Feats:
Spoiler

Magic:
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3.x Compendium of Healing

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Old 08-22-2008, 05:52 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Items:
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Sample builds:
Spoiler

Pitfalls:
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3.x Compendium of Healing

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Old 08-22-2008, 06:12 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

A point: Elves also get an auto-search ability which is VERY handy for a skillmonkey-on-the-go. Don't even need to bother declaring you are searching for secret/concealed doors, you do it automatically.

Also, Swordsage gets 6 skill points per level, and has all the stealth skills (hide, move silently), all the detection skills (listen, spot, search) and even social skills (bluff), making it a solid skillmonkey class, particularly if you go heavy into Shadow Hand. In fact, you can be a very effective melee combatant and STILL be a very good skillmonkey, using your Dex for damage while in a Shadow Hand stance (which should be always). Island of Blades makes for very good synergy with flanking and precision damage.

Even if you don't want to be a Swordsage forever, a two level dip nets you a LOT of useful things, including Island of Blades to make precision damage more effective, Dex to damage, Wis to AC even in light armor (like Mithral Chain), and still has plenty of skill points to keep bases covered.

Also, my 'sneak suit', which any rogue would appreciate:

+1 Mithral Chain Shirt Shadowed, Silent Moves

It gives most armor for your buck, with a high enough dex mod that it won't hamper most skillmonkeys. It is light armor, so Swordsages still get their Wis bonus to AC. It negates the need to tie up slots on feet and cloak to get stealth up. Boots of Speed or Levitation are far more useful, and there are MANY cloaks out there that are extremely valuable to a rogue.
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:18 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Nice work, Chronos. This is a solid guide, and fills a lot of holes left by the current crop of guides at the Wizards forums.
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:30 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Nice guide!

You missed out one of my favourite core low-level skillmonkey items, though; the Goggles of Minute Seeing. At only 1,250 gold for a +5 bonus to Search, they're a great way to kick up your chances of finding traps and secret doors.

- Saph
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:35 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Very impressive. If I make a skillmonkey in the future, I'll certainly be referring to this.
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:13 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
Chronos
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Quote:
A point: Elves also get an auto-search ability which is VERY handy for a skillmonkey-on-the-go. Don't even need to bother declaring you are searching for secret/concealed doors, you do it automatically.
True, but searching for traps is usually a lot more important. Still, I'll add a mention of it.

Quote:
Also, Swordsage gets 6 skill points per level, and has all the stealth skills (hide, move silently), all the detection skills (listen, spot, search) and even social skills (bluff), making it a solid skillmonkey class, particularly if you go heavy into Shadow Hand. In fact, you can be a very effective melee combatant and STILL be a very good skillmonkey, using your Dex for damage while in a Shadow Hand stance (which should be always). Island of Blades makes for very good synergy with flanking and precision damage.
Huh, I thought I'd included them. I must have gotten a little too trigger-happy with the delete button somewhere along the way.

Quote:
You missed out one of my favourite core low-level skillmonkey items, though; the Goggles of Minute Seeing. At only 1,250 gold for a +5 bonus to Search, they're a great way to kick up your chances of finding traps and secret doors.
OK, I'll add them. I hadn't noticed the low price.

Keep the suggestions coming-- I'm sure there are some splatbook spells and items I'm overlooking, too (haven't gone through the Compendia with a fine-toothed comb).
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:31 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

if you want to include racial sub levels Kobalds make awsome skill monkeys... and trap monkeys if you use there racial subs.

other wise this is awsome.

although i understand the reason behind it you might want to expand on your "slight of hand becomes your attack" line...
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:37 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Could replace "Guide" with "Suggestions", "Strategies", "Stratagems", or some such, for the acronym.
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:46 PM   Top  -  End  -  #11
monty
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

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Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
Could replace "Guide" with "Suggestions", "Strategies", "Stratagems", or some such, for the acronym.
But then it's not unalliterative. And big words are fun.
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #12
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Great guide the only thing I really disagree with is the interpretation of how the Master Spellthief feat works for a spellcasting skillmonkey.

Since Oriental Adventures was mentioned for Iajutsu Skill the Magic of Faerun
Spellfire Wielder feat is really strong if you can get access to the book.

The Godsight feat from Lost Empires of Faerun could be useful or some of the Complete Mage bloodline feats with spell-like abilities could be useful depending on the campaign particularly social interaction and non-LA race campaigns.
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:55 PM   Top  -  End  -  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monty View Post
But then it's not unalliterative. And big words are fun.
True enough. Perhaps replace with "Undiluted"?

As for the guide itself....

Hide in Plain Sight:
Most versions of Hide in Plain Sight only remove the requirement that you not be observed when you start hiding, or that you need some form of cover or concealment. Few do both, so read the one you're using very carefully, ideally before your DM does.

Slight of Hand:
Negated by things being "well secured" and as "well secured" isn't a game-defined term, this has a lot of DM discretion. Additionally, when pickpocketing becomes a known problem, people start taking steps to better secure their possessions. If you rely on this strategy too much, you'll eventually find all your opponents will be guarded against it in one way or another - and this is in character for intelligent opponents, not a deliberate nerf.
Additionally, Spot only makes the DC a little higher, and lets people know you're doing it. It doesn't actually stop you from lifting an item.

Feats:
I'm surprised Silent Spell didn't make the list for caster skillmonkeys. Seems a bit required.
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:02 PM   Top  -  End  -  #14
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Hm... a Factotum/Chameleon Changeling...
...a Master of Disguise...

(Couldn't a Chameleon take Open Minded every day as its bonus feat, netting it infinite skill points, rendering the skills-per-level pointless? I mean, it never says the points go away if the feat does, though it makes sense to rule that way)
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:08 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexxation View Post
Hm... a Factotum/Chameleon Changeling...
...a Master of Disguise...

(Couldn't a Chameleon take Open Minded every day as its bonus feat, netting it infinite skill points, rendering the skills-per-level pointless? I mean, it never says the points go away if the feat does, though it makes sense to rule that way)
... when you lose a feat, you lose the benefits of the feat. What's the benefit of the Open Minded feat? Five bonus skill points. What, therefore, is lost when you lose the feat?

The argument that you don't lose the skill points when you lose the feat is comparable to the argument that you don't lose the untyped bonus to a skill when you lose the Skill Focus feat.
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:09 PM   Top  -  End  -  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
... when you lose a feat, you lose the benefits of the feat. What's the benefit of the Open Minded feat? Five bonus skill points. What, therefore, is lost when you lose the feat?

The argument that you don't lose the skill points when you lose the feat is comparable to the argument that you don't lose the untyped bonus to a skill when you lose the Skill Focus feat.
Well, it's just that skill points are a (relatively) permanent thing; do you lose the skill points gained from Nymph's Kiss if that feat is lost? If so, do you just randomly pick skills to lose points from?

But yeah, my point was that to rule in favor of infinite skills would be absurd. And broken.

Edit: looking at the BoED, you can't lose Nymph's Kiss. I thought I remembered it being lost if the intimacy ended. Oh well, silly me.

Last edited by Vexxation : 08-22-2008 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:33 PM   Top  -  End  -  #17
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
True enough. Perhaps replace with "Undiluted"?
Fewer syllables = inferior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexxation View Post
Well, it's just that skill points are a (relatively) permanent thing; do you lose the skill points gained from Nymph's Kiss if that feat is lost? If so, do you just randomly pick skills to lose points from?

But yeah, my point was that to rule in favor of infinite skills would be absurd. And broken.

Edit: looking at the BoED, you can't lose Nymph's Kiss. I thought I remembered it being lost if the intimacy ended. Oh well, silly me.
Isn't it an exalted feat, which you lose if you commit an evil act?
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Old 08-22-2008, 09:35 PM   Top  -  End  -  #18
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Nice guide !

If you ever reformat the spell list, I would advise to sort it by spell levels.

Quick Reconnoiter (CAdv) is also a good feat for the "scout" role.

The Shadow Hand weapon of legacy has some interesting abilities: one of them allows you to hide as an immediate action at the beginning of a fight.

You may not have Complete Scoundrel, but perhaps you can mention the existence of skill tricks in passing.

At epic levels, there's the Void Incarnate for ultimate sneakiness: you erase your presence from the universe.
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Old 08-22-2008, 09:48 PM   Top  -  End  -  #19
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Taking a 1 level dip in Factotum and Able Learner is something every rogue should do.

Rogue 1/Factotum 1/Rogue 18 is a very good skill monkey. All you loose is 2 skill points and you gain all skills as class skills.
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Old 08-22-2008, 09:56 PM   Top  -  End  -  #20
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Excellent work. This helps my Haberdash build as well, so thanks.

Now that 3.5 is done, its now finally fully knowable as well. No more rules means that once you figure out all of the uses for X, you know all of the uses. So I'm hoping each of the regulars takes the time to compile and post their guides and favorite builds. This is an excellent start.
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:05 PM   Top  -  End  -  #21
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Quote:
if you want to include racial sub levels Kobalds make awsome skill monkeys... and trap monkeys if you use there racial subs.
From Races of the Dragon, I presume? What do the sub-levels do?

Quote:
Hide in Plain Sight:
Most versions of Hide in Plain Sight only remove the requirement that you not be observed when you start hiding, or that you need some form of cover or concealment. Few do both, so read the one you're using very carefully, ideally before your DM does.
So far as I know, the Dark template version is the only one for which this is an issue. Everyone else who gets HiPS also gets some other ability earlier or at the same time which either provides concealment (Umbral Disciple), or removes the need for it (Ranger, Scout, or Wilderness Rogue, with Camoflage). But I'll add a note to that effect in the Dark template section.

Quote:
If you rely on this strategy [Sleight of Hand] too much, you'll eventually find all your opponents will be guarded against it in one way or another - and this is in character for intelligent opponents, not a deliberate nerf.
True, but the same could be said of any strategy. And you can't secure everything.

Quote:
If you ever reformat the spell list, I would advise to sort it by spell levels.
That's a bit problematic, since some spells are at different levels for different classes, and a UMD user can potentially be dealing with spells from any list. The organization in every section is core options in alphabetical order, followed by non-core options in alphabetical order. I probably should have all of the classes and levels listed for the spells, but that's a lot of work (especially since some classes, like Assassins, aren't usually mentioned in a spell's statblock).

Quote:
Quick Reconnoiter (CAdv) is also a good feat for the "scout" role.
Hm, I overlooked that one. OK, I'll add it.

Quote:
The Shadow Hand weapon of legacy has some interesting abilities: one of them allows you to hide as an immediate action at the beginning of a fight.
Weapons of legacy are a mess that I can't sort out. Besides, isn't there only one of those? I'd rather stick to things that anyone can get.

Quote:
You may not have Complete Scoundrel, but perhaps you can mention the existence of skill tricks in passing.
Yes, I'll do that.


And it hadn't even occurred to me to try for an acronym in the title, though "CUSS" seems a rather fitting one for thieves, rogues, and ne'er-do-wells. The current title is, of course, a nod to Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorcerer Stratagems. I'll think about it.
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:10 PM   Top  -  End  -  #22
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

The skill descriptions seem misinformed. Players would do well to simply read the skill rules thoroughly instead. Some examples of these and other rules-deficiencies are in spoiler below, b/c I don't want to make this seem like a bash-fest. You could just skip the spoiler, crack open your PHB, get real comfy b/c it's gonna be a while and then learn a lot more than my shpiel.

Spoiler


Magic items are notably absent, as some people have pointed out. Besides what others mentioned there are also other armor enchantments, eyes of the eagle, lens of detection (name?), a lot of cheap +10 elixers and that's just the core stuff off the top of my head.

Otherwise the guide is a fairly good compilation of what's in the rulebooks and popular opinion. If you're seeking to make a skillmonkey, I'd take the build parts of his guide, read the PHB skill rules carefully and research magic items selection yourself (unless the OP soon adds a convenient list to the guide ).
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:51 PM   Top  -  End  -  #23
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

You've dismissed more than 5 levels of Balance out of hand. It does have one significant benefit, which is that it can be used to oppose trip attempts. (See the rule in Complete Adventurer.) As skill points will go up faster than the tripper's STR score, and you can "take 12" with Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue, you can become immune to tripping. For Rogues who want usefulness in combat as well as skill monkey prowess, the ability to get up close and sneaky against spiked chain-wielding foes can save the bacon of all your party's melee types.
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Old 08-22-2008, 11:07 PM   Top  -  End  -  #24
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

A few other things that may be of interest to you...

Feat
Tactile Trapsmith (CAd): Allows you to use your dex modifier in place of your int modifier for search and disable device, also gives you no penalties for searching/disabling/opening a lock when you can't see. Could be very handy in a dungeon

Prestige Class
Human Paragon (UArc): First level of this class allows you to pick 10 skills as class skills, as well as allowing you to treat one skill as a permanent class skill, regardless of class.

Whilst it does only have 4+Int mod skills per level, its sheer versatility ranks it up there for a 1 level dip in Factotum, not to mention that it also gives you proficiency in a single Martial weapon of your choice.

Levels 2 and 3 are really only worthwhile if you have levels in a casting class. I'd recommend Warlock for the possibility to get darkvision and a +6 bonus to either acrobatic skills or social skills.

Levels 2 and 3 also give you a bonus feat, and +2 to a single stat of your choice. Not bad, really.
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Old 08-22-2008, 11:32 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

This is a very useful guide. While I won't have time to use it as a player for a while it will come in very handy for the next campaign I'm running. Thanks!
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Old 08-23-2008, 12:30 AM   Top  -  End  -  #26
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Quote:
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True, but the same could be said of any strategy. And you can't secure everything.
Part of it is that "well secured" is never defined, which means it is up to DM whimsey.

But if you work at it, yes, you can secure everything reasonably well. Get a solid belt with a lock and lots of extra holes, and attach everything to steel wire by way of Sovereign Glue. Loop the ends of the steel wire through the holes in the belt, and join those with Sovereign Glue as well. Put belt on, lock it. An arbitrary number of items are now "well secured".

Even if you don't do everything that way, you can get the essentials for the class (Cloak of Resistance, stat boosters, spell components pouch; armor and shield generally ought to already qualify on their own) to the point where it's a waste of an action up until it's just free actions.
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:07 AM   Top  -  End  -  #27
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

I know this isn;t quite the same thing, but I was thinking of using a Cloistered Cleric which can act as a skill monkey after Yeril brought a particular build up in a thread about Cloistered Clerics. My idea is to either pick the Trickery and Kobold Domains to get a lot of skills while using the Apprentice feat to get Move Silently and Open Lock as class skills, or (if you don't want to be a Kobold), have a customised anti-trap Domain rather then the Kobold Domain (that idea was discussed on this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87679 ).
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:41 AM   Top  -  End  -  #28
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

Wow, this is actually really useful to me, even though I never play the full-on skillmonkey role. I now know something of what skills can be more useful than others if my class abilities don't demand the attention of all of my skill points. Our party is almost always lacking one or more 'crucial' roles, so it's not a stretch to imagine an Int-focused Warblade having to sub for one in a pinch.
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:56 AM   Top  -  End  -  #29
Thurbane
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

There two classes I think might sit well with a skillmonkey build - Archivist and Exemplar. Any thoughts?
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Old 08-23-2008, 02:03 AM   Top  -  End  -  #30
Tempest Fennac
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Join Date: Sep 2007
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Default Re: Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide [3.x]

I've never heard of Exemplars. What do they do? Archivists can't really get access to enough skills to be good in this roll (you need a ton of Knowledge skill points for Dark Knowledge, and they don't get Domains, so you'd need Able Learner while ignoring Dark Knowledge to be that effective in a skill monkey roll as an Archivist, but this would limit you to playing as a Human or Changeling, and I don't think there's a way to get Trapfinding unless you're allowed to use the Generic Class Trapfinding feat).
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Last edited by Tempest Fennac : 08-23-2008 at 02:04 AM.
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