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Homebrew Design Roll up your sleeves and get working: there's lots of homebrewin' to be done! Post your custom creation for critiques or review those of your peers.

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Old 09-13-2008, 11:52 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
Kellus
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Default The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at night)

You can download a PDF of this material here thanks to Evincar! Read it and comment!
(It's a lot nicer, it has pictures and everything!)


Truenaming

General Nonsense

Spoiler


How it Works

Spoiler


Augmenting Vocalizations

Spoiler


Discovering Truenames

Spoiler


Truespeak (Int; Trained-Only)

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Defending Against Truespeak

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Last edited by Kellus : 10-12-2010 at 05:00 PM. Reason: Item familiars are not cool!
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:53 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
Kellus
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The Truenamer

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The Lexeme

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The Necronomist

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Last edited by Kellus : 04-10-2012 at 11:44 PM. Reason: Necronomist!
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:54 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
Kellus
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Utterances

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The Utterances

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Last edited by Kellus : 06-11-2009 at 01:52 PM. Reason: Syllable of Entropy. AGAIN.
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:55 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
Kellus
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Incantations

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The Incantations

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Last edited by Kellus : 10-12-2010 at 04:59 PM. Reason: New incantations
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:56 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
Kellus
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Recitations

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The Recitations

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Last edited by Kellus : 11-22-2009 at 01:27 PM. Reason: Important change to how the Recitation of the Unclouded Eye works!
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:57 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
Kellus
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Feats

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Old 09-13-2008, 11:58 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
Kellus
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

The Word Warrior

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The True Scribe

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The Sinspeaker

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The Hidden Word

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The Truesinger

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The Gospelblade

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Illumian Truenamer

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Old 09-13-2008, 11:59 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
Kellus
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The Astral Namemaker

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The Fiendbinder

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The Rhyme Witch

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The Cosmos Translator

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The Alias

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The Name Given

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Last edited by Kellus : 07-11-2011 at 11:46 PM. Reason: Alias
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Old 09-14-2008, 12:00 AM   Top  -  End  -  #9
Kellus
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Echo Wing

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Word Archon

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Ink Golem

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Absolute Limit for Racial Hit Dice

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Old 09-14-2008, 12:01 AM   Top  -  End  -  #10
Kellus
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

Activating Truespeak Items

Magic items which interact with truenaming usually require their own truename to be spoken to activate. The DC for such a check is given in the item description, and is usually equal to 15 + the caster level of the item.

Wondrous Items

Spoiler


To-Do List

Base Class

• Truename necromancer base class. It'll be sweet.

Prestige Classes

• Elemental Advocate [Truenamer that learns the true names of the four elements and argues them into doing his bidding]
• Midnight Namer [Shadowcaster/truenamer that discovers the shadow of the true language]
• Truepath [Psionic truenamer that merely thinks truenames]
•*Scrying + truenaming?

Monsters

• Logokron Devil
• Garbler
• Truename Inevitable

Racial Substitution Levels

• Spellscale
• Aasimar
• Tiefling

Feats

Rework them to be in general nicer and more appealing. Condense them some.

Miscellaneous

• Weapon special qualities
• Armour special qualities
• Magic items
• More utterances

Current Priority: Monsters and magic items, and chiselling away at a new base class.
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Old 09-14-2008, 12:35 AM   Top  -  End  -  #11
Zeta Kai
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

This is crazy. Amazingly crazy. I am continually impressed by the sheer depth you go to in your homebrews.

Great job!
No sarcasm, I swear. I know that just copied/pasted what you said in my thread, but I mean every word of it.
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Old 09-14-2008, 12:43 AM   Top  -  End  -  #12
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

This is fantastic. I can't wait for the rest. And more PrC's, if you've got the inclination.
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Old 09-14-2008, 12:49 AM   Top  -  End  -  #13
Kellus
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
This is crazy. Amazingly crazy. I am continually impressed by the sheer depth you go to in your homebrews.

Great job!
No sarcasm, I swear. I know that just copied/pasted what you said in my thread, but I mean every word of it.
You're funny.

As for the Prestige Classes, absolutely. The next on the slate is the Rhyme Witch, who rhymes Power Word arcane spells with truespeech. I've got a few planned, which should be interesting. Also of course some monsters, including updates of most of the stuff in the Tome of Magic for this system.
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Old 09-14-2008, 01:21 AM   Top  -  End  -  #14
Icewalker
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Ok, I skipped the lists of utterances/incantations/recitations, as well as the PrC, so I just read the mechanics, base class, and feats. I'll read the rest tomorrow.

This is amazing work. I really need to go back to reading big projects in the homebrew section more often. I loved the truename idea, but the class wasn't really usable. I haven't gone through the actual truename...you need a word for utterances/incantations/recitations. The equivalent of 'Spells' or 'Maneuvers'.

Back on topic. I haven't gone through them yet, but the idea is fantastic, and looks really well laid out. I really like the split up of the...those. Target specific, self aura-esque, and influence stuff. Good separation.

A few comments:
If they are all activated as a move action, does that mean you can do two per round?

The feat Penetrating Truespeech should be modified slightly. Instead of giving a +3 against targets with name resistance, it should effectively reduce the target's name resistance against your truespeech abilities by 3, so that you don't get additional bonuses against people with only 1 or 2 resistance. Just a phrasing matter, really, although a slightly but distinctly exploitable one.



Also: this definitely needs some balance pbp tests, because I want to use it and something this big needs extensive balance testing. I would offer to make a dungeon that exemplifies the use of the classes, abilities, and monsters once you have them, except I'm REALLY busy right now. So, I'd love to play as one to help test, although I don't have the time to set up testing.
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Old 09-14-2008, 01:32 AM   Top  -  End  -  #15
Kellus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewalker View Post
Ok, I skipped the lists of utterances/incantations/recitations, as well as the PrC, so I just read the mechanics, base class, and feats. I'll read the rest tomorrow.

This is amazing work. I really need to go back to reading big projects in the homebrew section more often. I loved the truename idea, but the class wasn't really usable. I haven't gone through the actual truename...you need a word for utterances/incantations/recitations. The equivalent of 'Spells' or 'Maneuvers'.

Back on topic. I haven't gone through them yet, but the idea is fantastic, and looks really well laid out. I really like the split up of the...those. Target specific, self aura-esque, and influence stuff. Good separation.

A few comments:
If they are all activated as a move action, does that mean you can do two per round?

The feat Penetrating Truespeech should be modified slightly. Instead of giving a +3 against targets with name resistance, it should effectively reduce the target's name resistance against your truespeech abilities by 3, so that you don't get additional bonuses against people with only 1 or 2 resistance. Just a phrasing matter, really, although a slightly but distinctly exploitable one.



Also: this definitely needs some balance pbp tests, because I want to use it and something this big needs extensive balance testing. I would offer to make a dungeon that exemplifies the use of the classes, abilities, and monsters once you have them, except I'm REALLY busy right now. So, I'd love to play as one to help test, although I don't have the time to set up testing.
Thanks for the feedback. I agree that it needs testing, and in fact I'm going to be setting up a series of encounters on the PbP forum to try in out in conjunction with a conventional group of adventurers.

As for the rest of your advice:

• There is a name for them as whole; I've been using alternately 'truename effects' and 'truespeak effects'. I kind of ran out of choices, since I used up 'utterances', 'incantations', 'recitations', and as subsets of utterances, 'phrases', 'syllables', and 'words'. I'm happy enough with the wording for now.

• Yes, one of the nice things about truenaming is that you can attempt two truespeak effects per round. This is partly to compensate for the much greater failure chance than spells, and party to emphasize that it's different. It's not making fancy hand gestures or subsuming material components. It's just talking in a different language, so I think it's appropriate that it takes less time.

• Penetrating Truespeech was done like that on purpose. It's a bit of an added incentive to take it, as a bit of a kick in the pants to people that have taken the Obscure Truename feat. I figured, if they're up against someone with name resistance 2, let's give them a bit of an advantage for having taken the feat. It's actually based on a feat I quite like from (I think) the Player's Hanbook II, called Water Splitting Stone.

Thanks for the comments!
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Old 09-14-2008, 01:38 AM   Top  -  End  -  #16
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

This get my Druidic Seal of Approval! I'm subscribing...so keep up the good work i'll be watching from the 'little fuzzy thing with big teeth over there'....
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Old 09-14-2008, 01:44 AM   Top  -  End  -  #17
Kellus
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Oo! A druidic seal of approval™! Now it's official!

The PbP test recruitment is here. Anybody interested in helping me playtest it would be appreciated.
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Old 09-14-2008, 03:28 AM   Top  -  End  -  #18
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

I don't really understand the absolute limit. Is it the hit dice plus charisma mod + con mod?

In any case, I feel that this may be a nerf of a kind that drops the Truenamer straight back to the level before you started modifying. There are just so many cr-equivalent creatures out there with too many hitpoints to be affected by Truespeak. Vermin, animals and undead, to mention a few. It is also what it says it is, an absolute limit. There are these creatures that I can affect, and these that I under any circumstances can't. Heck, even a wizard can resort to Magic Missile if something has too high an AC or too good saves.

And the Truenamer still weeps at night.

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Old 09-14-2008, 04:12 AM   Top  -  End  -  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellus View Post
So you’re probably thinking, “Kellus, you handsome devil! Utterances have an hp limit on what they can effect! Doesn’t this mean that I, a full caster, am useless against enemies with oodles of health?!”

The answer is no. Utterances are the most powerful weapons in your arsenal, but they’re not the only thing you got going for you. When an enemy is too strong (at the moment) to target with an utterance, you can use incantations to target him indirectly. This can include launching projectiles at him, altering the terrain to your advantage, or other such effects that don’t target your enemy directly.
As stated in first post only utterances are under the effect of the absolute limit. All other abilities still work.

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Old 09-14-2008, 04:18 AM   Top  -  End  -  #20
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

Absolute limit starts at (1+cha bonus) and every time you raise a level it goes up by (1+cha bonus). It doesn't change retroactively, con is not involved.

The limitation on absolute limit is supposed to be balanced out by recitations and incantations, because it only applies to utterances as Owrtho said, which are the only 'I do (blank) to you' type spells, as opposed to shifting oneself or the environment.


By the way, I forgot to mention: your layout and coloring was REALLY great, it actually made it a lot easier to understand. Very well organized, was a big help.
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Old 09-14-2008, 10:30 AM   Top  -  End  -  #21
Zeta Kai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellus View Post
There is a name for them as whole; I've been using alternately 'truename effects' and 'truespeak effects'. I kind of ran out of choices, since I used up 'utterances', 'incantations', 'recitations', and as subsets of utterances, 'phrases', 'syllables', and 'words'.
I propose that truename/truespeak effects be referred to by the term vocalizations. Its unique, technical, & relatively short. Just a thought.

This is a fabulous class fix, much better than the average fighter/monk/samurai fixes that grace this sub-forum. I nominate this for Class Fix of the Year™.

Question: I see an entry for monsters; are you going to create truespeech-based creatures? 'Cause that'd be wicked cool.

Last edited by Zeta Kai : 09-14-2008 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 09-14-2008, 10:38 AM   Top  -  End  -  #22
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

I only read the basic rules before posting, so actual criticism is for latter.

This is great! I look forward to new PrCs, and I might (If you don't object) put a revised Bereft here.

Also: Namelessness just don't cut it. Why no call it Unnamable?
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Old 09-14-2008, 10:51 AM   Top  -  End  -  #23
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

I think this is a very interesting reworking, but I have to agree regarding concerns about the Absolute Limit.

I admit, the no-save, no-spell resistance requires a significant balancing effect. But an hp-based limit is significantly limiting, as hp scales much faster than CR. Let's take the stone golem, with a CR of 11 and 107 hp.

Assuming you started with 18 Charisma, you have an Absolute Limit of 59, meaning you can only bring out your big guns when the golem has hit 59 hit points, about two-thirds its hp.

The greater stone golem, however, at CR 16, has 271 hit points, when you have an Absolute Limit of 90, 1/3 the golem's hit points.

The major concern is that at these levels, warrior types may or may not be capable of dishing out that sort of damage in a single turn, meaning that when the truenamer pulls out his big guns, he's superfluous.

There are, of course, different interpretations. I'm not the best at evaluating relative class strength. I recognize that the truenamer does bring things to the table; it's possible that the truenamer meshes well with a party, as his semi-arcane might kicks in when the spellcaster starts losing steam, especially against high-resistance opponents.

Another major concern is of course how the Absolute Limit interacts with buffs the truenamer has available. In the same way that people complained about how difficult it was for the ToM truenamer to help his allies, this creates perverse incentives to keep hp low.

EDIT: One possible fix might have to do with truenames, if you're wedded to the absolute limit idea. If you know a target's truename, you might have a higher Absolute Limit, or disregard it entirely. (This has not been thought through thoroughly, as it is an offhand suggestion)
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Old 09-14-2008, 11:56 AM   Top  -  End  -  #24
Kellus
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

Thanks for the comments!

The design view I started out from is that people will be able to find a way to abuse the skill system. If you're going to make a skill-based casting system, there's just too much material already out there dealing with skills to even get a hope of balance. It's just too much material to try and take into account. The original truenamer unfortunately overreacted to this, and made the DCs practically unreachable unless you min/maxed the **** out of it.

This class' absolute limt (and vocalizations in general) is based off of power word spells, which all have an hp limit. I liked the idea, but decided that the limit should evolve with you.

But the system assumes that your utterances will be able to win the fight. They're your big guns. That's why I wasn't afraid to put powerful and cool effects as utterances, because the assumption going into it was that by the time an enemy has been worn down to your absolute limit, the rest of the party has had a chance to do their bit and it's okay for you to pull out the magical big guns to finish the job off.

Luckily, you also have incantations available that you'll generally be able to use as much as you want. The idea between these vs utterances was similar to the design of invocations vs arcane spells. Incantations you can use whenever you want, and they always give you something to do in the middle of battle. But you still have really powerful stuff kept in reserve for after the battle's gone on for a while.

This also puts a value on hp. Spellcasters and other creatures with low Hit Dice will be vulnerable to utterances much sooner than barbarians, undead, and other creatures with lots of hp. In this sense, the truenamer can pick off low hp targets with his powerful utterances while the rest of the party does their bit.

Finally, recitations help in a variety of circumstances. They're always available as well, and let the truenamer trade his vocalization versatility for a decent buff on himself. This is especially useful for multiclass truenamers, since many of the recitations mesh well with existing classes.

The one class feature I'm wavering on is the ability to let the truenamer know when creatures can be affected by his utterances. It seems like a good idea, but it also sort of seems like legalized metagaming, knowing when a creature is below x hp. Suggestions?

(In case you can't tell, I definitely like the name 'vocalization'. I'll track down alll the places I used 'truename effect' and 'truespeak effect' pretty soon and switch them out!)
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Old 09-14-2008, 03:07 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

This pretty cool, and definitely looks like an improvement from Tome of Magic.

My concern with the Absolute Limit is this: it varies too widely. Hit point scaling can get away (usually) with applying Con multiple times because you've got so much of a base to work off of in the form of those big Hit Dice. However, you're using a base of 1 to add to. In order to keep things within a sane and more predictable range, an ability score really only be invoked once in a class ability's formula. In this case, I suggest you replace the wildly variable scaling rate with something more akin to the values for say incantations or utterances (except higher, of course).

Say, perhaps (just throwing numbers out there),

1st 1
2nd 5
3rd 9
4th 13
5th 18
6th 23
7th 29
8th 35
9th ...

and add the Charisma bonus (which should then be allowed to be inflated by any means, since it's only being applied once) to the static level-based value.
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Old 09-14-2008, 03:17 PM   Top  -  End  -  #26
Kellus
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

I suppose it's something to think about. I personally like the way it is right now for the following reasons:

• It's much more unique and natural. That is, most characters that enter the class, depending when and where they multiclass or increase their ability scores, will have different absolute limits. I don't like classes where everybody that enters it is essentially a cookie cutter mold of every other character of that class.

• It's got a mechanic already built into it to allow for future projects. That is, by tying the absolute limit to a class-specific feature akin to Hit Die or skill points per level, it's very easy to make exceptions for future classes or prestige classes. For example, the word warrior prestige class already presented is a martial truenamer, and since mental stats aren't as important to him, he gets to start adding his Strength bonus to his limit instead of his Charisma score. I can also adjust for forced multiclassing; the word warrior is forced to multiclass into some other base class for entry requirements, so I can add 2 + ability score to his limit every level instead of the truenamer's 1 + ability score without worrying about unbalancing the status quo. It's just much more flexible when it's built on a case-by-case basis.

• Finally, if it's a static score akin to hp, you're suggesting, I'm making it too easy to cheat. There are a plethora of ways to improve ability scores at higher levels. If the changes are all retroactive (that is, an ability score increase at 20th level changes the previous absolute limit adjustments, somewhat like hp is now), it would open up many more avenues for people to get around the system at higher levels and abuse it.

That's just my take on it, anyway. Thanks for the comment!
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Old 09-14-2008, 06:25 PM   Top  -  End  -  #27
Icewalker
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

Further, a nice advantage could be a PrC Prereq requiring a specific absolute limit.
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Old 09-14-2008, 07:29 PM   Top  -  End  -  #28
Baron Corm
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

It's unbalancing to give a death-causing utterance. Those words should be reserved for the gods. An (Ex) ability causing death with no save should not be in a player's hands. An optimized Truenamer WILL be able to make that DC, and any truenamer that couldn't wouldn't attempt it, so there would be no point in having it. Maybe I missed something in the text which balances it.

Also, I think they should be (Su). Could you please explain how they are (Ex) a bit more?

Mmm 1 more thing: I think a change in Charisma should retroactively affect your Truespeak DC. "I'm really weak in power right now, but I was powerful when I "leveled up", as they say, so I am actually still in full force!"

Last edited by Baron Corm : 09-14-2008 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 09-14-2008, 07:50 PM   Top  -  End  -  #29
Kellus
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingpoo22 View Post
It's unbalancing to give a death-causing utterance. Those words should be reserved for the gods. An (Ex) ability causing death with no save should not be in a player's hands. An optimized Truenamer WILL be able to make that DC, and any truenamer that couldn't wouldn't attempt it, so there would be no point in having it. Maybe I missed something in the text which balances it.
This is something I wavered back and forth on, and I'm still not sure about. On the one hand, I can't seriously find a way to get a +55 modifier to the Truespeak skill with the limitations I've imposed on it by level 20. On the other, it would indeed be potentially overpowering. I'll probably end up toning it down.

Quote:
Also, I think they should be (Su). Could you please explain how they are (Ex) a bit more?
They're not a magical or pseudo-magical ability; vocalizations rewrite the universe as if it had always been that way. You'll find very little fluff in this document, mostly because there's tons of it in the Tome of Magic. I'm basically stealing their fluff, but completely changing the mechanics. I feel that truenaming is more of an extraordinary ability than overtly mystical in nature. For example, I don't see why truenaming wouldn't work in an anti-magic field. It wouldn't work in a silenced area, but anti-magic is fine. As long as the universe can hear you speak, you're set.

Quote:
Mmm 1 more thing: I think a change in Charisma should retroactively affect your Truespeak DC. "I'm really weak in power right now, but I was powerful when I "leveled up", as they say, so I am actually still in full force!"
I don't quite understood your reasoning or your suggestion here. Your Charisma score never affects a Truespeak DC; the skill is Intelligence-based. Could you elaborate?

Thanks for the comments!

...and back to the prestige class.
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Old 09-14-2008, 09:42 PM   Top  -  End  -  #30
Khorebh
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Default Re: The Way Words Work (or, Truenaming that doesn't make me cry myself to sleep at ni

I absolutely adore this- and will be hijacking for one of my games, to see how it plays, pending your permission, but might I put forth an equivalent for "Spells" or "Maneuvers" for this class? (I don't know if someone's beaten me to it)

How about 'lexeme' or 'lemma'?

They're both words for the most basic of linguistic concepts, and I thought it fit...
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