If they do not want money that has been around D&D then I will not continue to contaminate their coffers with mine. It is hypocritical to accept donations from the individuals but then condemn the group, IMO, even if they don't know the individuals are part of the group. (Maybe even ESPECIALLY if they don't know the individuals are part of the group.) I also don’t believe this was public knowledge. I certainly wasn’t screened with a questionnaire about my involvement with D&D before being allowed to donate.
As has been pointed out multiple times, the issue seems to have been endorsement/sponsorship, not the gaining of the money or anything like that. There's a major difference for a charity to accept money from something and to actually sponsor an event; plenty of charities have rules for what events they will/won't sponsor, and some won't sponsor anything they didn't organize themselves. The problem wasn't that the money came from D&D, it was because GenCon didn't fit their criteria for something they'd sponsor. Exactly what the criteria is hasn't been mentioned, but, again, criteria for sponsorship/endorsement is something that some charities don't like to give publicly anyway.
And--as has also been pointed out multiple times--there was no money raised at the time they choose not to be the sponsor/endorser. It was before the thing even happened!
So I saw the article and decided to contact GenCon and CCF directly. Apparently the stories circulating around are inaccurate, partly. I received word back from both.
GenCon's official stance, as provided to me by Jeannette LeGault, the Director of Event Programming (and I'm going to paraphrase most of this), is that they contacted CCF to be the sponsor charity for the auction because the charity was one of Mr. Gygax's favorite charities. Unfortunately, CCF declined to be the official sponsor on the website because of GenCon's ties to D&D and did not want to be associated with GenCon, and CCF's reply states also that it is official organization policy not to be such official sponsors. GenCon officials were not comfortable with the situation, so contacted Mr. Gygax's family for another appropriate charity to be the sponsor.
Everything was set up months before GenCon and the charity, and CCF did -not- actually refuse the donation, it was GenCon's decision not to submit the donation to CCF.
That being said, that decision was based on the fact that CCF did indeed refuse to be official sponsors for the charity at least partially because of its ties with D&D.
According to Jeannette, more than 1200 e-mail responses were received by CCF about the issue. While I'm personally abashed at having sent one myself before getting all the facts straight, it heartens me to see how passionately the gaming community responded to this.
I've updated the Giant in the Playground guys, but I wanted to spread the word as widely as possible about GenCon's official stance on everything. Everyone deserves the full story before they get up in arms.
I'll try to keep active on the forums here for a little while if anyone has questions about the replies I got from GenCon or from CCF.
[quote=ericgrau;5237016
And a false dichotomy is where you state that there are only 2 options even though there's no reason for them to be mutually exclusive and/or the only options. It's not a fancy-pants term to throw around as a substitute for using reason even after a reason really is given for the two options to be mutually exclusive... and you just really don't want them to be.[/QUOTE]
This is the statement I was replying to when I called it a "false dichotomy":
"Either the charity slapped Gen Con in the face, or Gen Con is screwing over the charity bad."
The poster clearly presented a false dichotomy, by your definition. I merely pointed out a possible third option ... more than sufficient to refute one.
So was your point addressed to me, and if it was, what was your point again?
Quote:
Here, I'll provide something to help get this moving in the right direction. Has the charity issued any statement confirming or denying the convention's statement? That'll lead to an easy answer if they confirm it, and I don't expect it to be so easy, but it's worth a shot. And it's best to exhaust each of our avenues of investigation one by one, to provide a thorough search for the answer or to at least to reach the conclusion that we've looked at everything and still just don't know.
From their form letter:
"We were unaware that this had caused any problem or concern for Gen Con until we began receiving emails. This decision was in no way intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons. We have the utmost respect for the gaming community and were touched by the generosity expressed through your auction"
That pretty much says that the comment in the convention's statement is incorrect without flat-out calling them a liar, since they explicitly say that the reasons Gen Con gave where not related to the decision (or, at least, what they wanted to reflect).
You can choose not to believe that if you wish. You can assert sophistry and insist that it was because of a fear that other donators would not donate because of THEIR attitudes towards D&D. But you cannot say that they simply have not stated that the reason they didn't want to be the sponsor was not due to D&D, because they pretty much said exactly that.
All this crap did is hurt some kids, because 99 percent of the people who saw this story will a) avoid that charity at all costs, and b) reinforce a negative Christian stereotype in the gaming industry (I lived through MADD and the police having pamphlets about how to deal with dirty D&Ders thanks).
As a gamer and a Christian, I'm think this is mostly sad for the beneficiaries of the charity who may or may not be negatively affected by all this.
So I saw the article and decided to contact GenCon and CCF directly. Apparently the stories circulating around are inaccurate, partly. I received word back from both.
GenCon's official stance, as provided to me by Jeannette LeGault, the Director of Event Programming (and I'm going to paraphrase most of this), is that they contacted CCF to be the sponsor charity for the auction because the charity was one of Mr. Gygax's favorite charities. Unfortunately, CCF declined to be the official sponsor on the website because of GenCon's ties to D&D and did not want to be associated with GenCon, and CCF's reply states also that it is official organization policy not to be such official sponsors. GenCon officials were not comfortable with the situation, so contacted Mr. Gygax's family for another appropriate charity to be the sponsor.
Everything was set up months before GenCon and the charity, and CCF did -not- actually refuse the donation, it was GenCon's decision not to submit the donation to CCF.
That being said, that decision was based on the fact that CCF did indeed refuse to be official sponsors for the charity at least partially because of its ties with D&D.
According to Jeannette, more than 1200 e-mail responses were received by CCF about the issue. While I'm personally abashed at having sent one myself before getting all the facts straight, it heartens me to see how passionately the gaming community responded to this.
I've updated the Giant in the Playground guys, but I wanted to spread the word as widely as possible about GenCon's official stance on everything. Everyone deserves the full story before they get up in arms.
I'll try to keep active on the forums here for a little while if anyone has questions about the replies I got from GenCon or from CCF.
Applause to you for endeavoring to get the story straight.
Unfortunately, CCF declined to be the official sponsor on the website because of GenCon's ties to D&D and did not want to be associated with GenCon, and CCF's reply states also that it is official organization policy not to be such official sponsors.
Fair enough, but your statement does indicate that CCF turned down free money on the basis of GenCon's affiliation with D&D. It's still an insult.
That makes me kind of upset with GenCon for not giving to Mr. Gygax's favorite charity anyway, (something I mentioned in an earlier post) but I understand. I am still not happy with CCF for taking issue with D&D and I will still donate elsewhere - there are other charities that help children.
Fair enough, but your statement does indicate that CCF turned down free money on the basis of GenCon's affiliation with D&D. It's still an insult.
Quote:
Everything was set up months before GenCon and the charity, and CCF did -not- actually refuse the donation, it was GenCon's decision not to submit the donation to CCF.
Funnel your anger at something harmful, not Christians being idiots about who to sponsor.
But Celtic's statement is very contradictory. First, CCF didn't want to be the sponsor of GenCon because it goes against their policy AND because GenCon is affiliated with D&D. Then, it's GenCon who decides not to give the money. Which is it?
I was never really upset about this, in truth. This is the first time I've actually commented on the issue. If CCF doesn't want donations, then the money can go to another charity. (shrugs)
Fair enough, but your statement does indicate that CCF turned down free money on the basis of GenCon's affiliation with D&D. It's still an insult.
Although the question still remains: is this what the CCF told them, or is it GenCon's interpretation of what the CCF told them? And was it related at all to the Christian connotations of the game, or the company, or ...?
At first, I thought that her re-iteration made a difference, but it doesn't; we still don't know if GenCon got the right interpretation of the CCF rejection, and the CCF still says that they didn't mean to reflect anything about D&D, which would be obviously what refusing to sponsor would mean.
A more clarifying letter from the CCF would be desirable, and I hope that the poster will get one from them as well.
Fair enough, but your statement does indicate that CCF turned down free money on the basis of GenCon's affiliation with D&D. It's still an insult.
Why is it an insult? I bet you had zero bucks in that 17k in any case.
Charities have to be very careful about stuff like this. Say they take the money from GenCon. Now they have churches (who probably donate more over time than a one time deal from the con), who are upset because of old beliefs they have about D&D. The charity can't afford to get into a debate with the churches about whether D&D really teaches you to be gay and worship the devil. So they have to make the hard choice to walk away from 17k in order to stay in business.
GenCon still could have donated the money to CCF, even if CCF wasn't being the official sponsor... CCF never actually refused the money, and theoretically would have taken it if offered. But, GenCon wanted the whole package of sponsorship from the people they were donating to, and didn't like the anti-D&D thing, so went elsewhere.
As far as which version's true, you'll probably never 100% know. All you'll know is what each side said, and the "he said, she said" stuff will just be pointless to try to make heads or tails of. In the end, you get what each side's story is, and form your opinions from there. It's not hard to imagine that a Christian organization would not want to be associated with an organization that's tied with a controversial topic, either on principal or for practical matters. It's also not hard to imagine that there could have been a miscommunication somewhere between CCF and GenCon, especially if there was something vaguely implied about D&D but not outright stated.
So I saw the article and decided to contact GenCon and CCF directly. Apparently the stories circulating around are inaccurate, partly. I received word back from both.
GenCon's official stance, as provided to me by Jeannette LeGault, the Director of Event Programming (and I'm going to paraphrase most of this), is that they contacted CCF to be the sponsor charity for the auction because the charity was one of Mr. Gygax's favorite charities. Unfortunately, CCF declined to be the official sponsor on the website because of GenCon's ties to D&D and did not want to be associated with GenCon, and CCF's reply states also that it is official organization policy not to be such official sponsors. GenCon officials were not comfortable with the situation, so contacted Mr. Gygax's family for another appropriate charity to be the sponsor.
Everything was set up months before GenCon and the charity, and CCF did -not- actually refuse the donation, it was GenCon's decision not to submit the donation to CCF.
That being said, that decision was based on the fact that CCF did indeed refuse to be official sponsors for the charity at least partially because of its ties with D&D.
According to Jeannette, more than 1200 e-mail responses were received by CCF about the issue. While I'm personally abashed at having sent one myself before getting all the facts straight, it heartens me to see how passionately the gaming community responded to this.
I've updated the Giant in the Playground guys, but I wanted to spread the word as widely as possible about GenCon's official stance on everything. Everyone deserves the full story before they get up in arms.
I'll try to keep active on the forums here for a little while if anyone has questions about the replies I got from GenCon or from CCF.
So, from what I gather:
1) CCF choose not to sponsor GenCon partially because of the affiliation with D&D (this could have far more to do with trying to not drive off potential donators than their own feelings about the game; being an official sponsor is a big thing for a charity). They did not, however, reject the money that would have been raised.
2) Due to CCF choosing not to officially sponsor GenCon, GenCon chose to give the money to another charity.
I don't know, it seems fairly reasonable on both sides to me.
Last edited by Lord Seth : 11-05-2008 at 06:31 PM.
So, from what I gather:
1) CCF choose not to sponsor GenCon partially because of the affiliation with D&D (this could have far more to do with trying to not drive off potential donators than their own feelings about the game; being an official sponsor is a big thing for a charity). They did not, however, reject the money that would have been raised.
This is worse as far as I am concerned. Either stick to your guns and outright reject the money because of your beliefs, or accept the money and let people know where it is from.
Aggreeing to accept money incognito that goes against the organization's beliefs is an insult to those who follow those beliefs, but is typical for charitable organizations. It's all about raising money under the pretext of a religion.
So if they believe D&D is evil, then they shouldn't sponsor the event or accept the money. If they don't believe it is evil, then sponsor the event, and raise money to help the kids. But to say they they won't sponsor that event because of the link to D&D, but will accept the money anyway (just don't let anyone know) is downright hypocritical.
By the way. I personally do not think D&D is evil or that Christians should reject the money because if it. It is just the blatant hypocrisy of this, and many other religious organizations, that bothers me.
This is worse as far as I am concerned. Either stick to your guns and outright reject the money because of your beliefs, or accept the money and let people know where it is from.
Aggreeing to accept money incognito that goes against the organization's beliefs is an insult to those who follow those beliefs, but is typical for charitable organizations. It's all about raising money under the pretext of a religion.
So if they believe D&D is evil, then they shouldn't sponsor the event or accept the money. If they don't believe it is evil, then sponsor the event, and raise money to help the kids. But to say they they won't sponsor that event because of the link to D&D, but will accept the money anyway (just don't let anyone know) is downright hypocritical.
By the way. I personally do not think D&D is evil or that Christians should reject the money because if it. It is just the blatant hypocrisy of this, and many other religious organizations, that bothers me.
Is the organization's pride more important then helping kids? I'm glad they're willing to defy their base, however quietly, to get money to help folks. Be honest; Do you really need your donations remembered? Does it really need to be in the name of Dungeons and Dragons? Sure, I'll grant it might make some inroads with the folks who can't see that DnD isn't actually hurting anyone, but isn't helping someone more important then helping a nebulous concept that isn't really meaningful?
This is worse as far as I am concerned. Either stick to your guns and outright reject the money because of your beliefs, or accept the money and let people know where it is from.
Aggreeing to accept money incognito that goes against the organization's beliefs is an insult to those who follow those beliefs, but is typical for charitable organizations. It's all about raising money under the pretext of a religion.
So if they believe D&D is evil, then they shouldn't sponsor the event or accept the money. If they don't believe it is evil, then sponsor the event, and raise money to help the kids. But to say they they won't sponsor that event because of the link to D&D, but will accept the money anyway (just don't let anyone know) is downright hypocritical.
Um, where did anyone say they wanted the money incognito? They just didn't want to sponsor the event because it didn't fit their criteria. It's somewhat of a stretch to claim that they wanted to receive the money secretly. I still haven't seen any official source from either side state that they actually thought D&D was evil in any way, that seems to be speculation.
It would be nice if either CCF or GenCon would make some kind of official statement so we know EXACTLY what they thought happened. It seems to me that there's still a lot of blanks in the story that people are filling in with speculations. And that's without trying to figure out if either side was inaccurate in something, possibly by a misunderstanding.
Last edited by Lord Seth : 11-05-2008 at 07:54 PM.
I'm not sure if anyone else has posted something similar, but below is the text of the letter that a friend of mine received after she emailed the CCF with her concerns about this issue. While it does not explain their exact policy regarding endorsements, it does suggest that affiliation with Dungeons and Dragons was not an issue for them
Thank you for writing to Anne Goddard and sharing your concerns. Anne was traveling when she received your email. We discussed your concern and she asked that I respond on her behalf Please know that we take your email very seriously.
There appears to be a misunderstanding which I would like to correct. When Gen Con contacted CCF about its auction, we were pleased to accept donations. However, we couldn’t lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements. We were unaware that this had caused any problem or concern for Gen Con until we began receiving emails. This decision was in no way intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons. We have the utmost respect for the gaming community and were touched by the generosity expressed through your auction. We were disappointed that we were not the recipients of the donation but we were pleased that another worthy organization benefited.
We realize this has become a topic of discussion in the gaming community and we hope you will help us by sharing this response.
The needs of children are great and we welcome your support. Should you wish to learn more we invite you to visit our website at www.christianchildrensfund.org.
Again, I thank you for taking the time to voice your concern. Your passion for gaming and your support for children are admirable.
Sincerely,
Cheri Dahl
Vice President, International Communications and Fundraising
Christian Children's Fund
2821 Emerywood Parkway
Richmond, Virginia 23294
(804) 756-2702
Ah, here we go. She'd sent me a separate e-mail, but they've posted an official story on their forums here.
Additionally, just a little while ago I had some e-mail correspondence with Katie (one of the two folks I mentioned e-mailing above who were listed as part of the organizational team on the Live Auction page). I have her permission to reproduce the reply below.
Quote:
Hi Patrick,
I understand your concern and I will try to clear up whatever I can. I do not have a copy of the correspondence itself but as I recall CCF said they would of course accept donations raised by our events but they did not want the name of their organization to appear in any advertising related to the convention due to its association with Dungeons & Dragons. The response from CCF was shared with the Gygax family who, surprised by CCF's view on the matter, chose another of Gary's favorite charities for us to work with instead. I am not aware of any criteria that Gencon or the auction failed to meet. I hope my response has been helpful and if I can be of any further assistance please let me know.
Thanks.
Katie
Essentially, it is that CCF was willing to accept a donation, so long as their name was not connected to the event advertising. It seems that at the time approached, CCF was unwilling to have any open connection to Gen Con because of D&D. Going with the Gen Con post as well, it seems that they may have changed their minds later, after Gen Con had moved on and selected another charity. I am a little confused as to CCFs form letter response though and what the 'criteria' were and how Gen Con was 'misinformed'.
Official Reply from the Director of Event Programming at GenCon
For those of you who don't want to be troubled to click a link:
I would like to take this opportunity to set the record straight on the Gen Con Indy 2008 Charity issue, as there has been a lot of misinformation spreading like wildfire on various forums, blogs, etc.
First allow me to explain how Gen Con goes about selecting its show charity. The process is very simple. We generally choose several potential charities based on the following criteria…
1. Is local to the (Indy) area
2. Supports children
3. Preferably has a focus in math, science or gaming related activities.
Staff then votes individually on which charity we would like to support at the show; majority wins.
In 2008, Gen Con decided on a different route in choosing the charity, due the death of Gary Gygax, Gen Con’s founder. It was without question that the charity for 2008 would be one of Gary’s favorite charities.
In choosing the charity for 2008, Gen Con had heard through several channels, including a close friend of Gary’s family, that Christian Children’s Fund (CCF) was one of Gary’s favored charities. Gen Con contacted CCF about our intentions and asked for a logo and some promotional materials that we could use on our website. We were informed by a person at CCF that they would not be able to provide us with these materials, apparently due to our association with D&D. We were not comfortable with this position, considering Gary’s role as co-founder of D&D, and founder of Gen Con, and therefore we decided to pick a different charity. We informed the Gygax family of our decision and the reason behind it, and asked if there was another charity they would like us to consider. Fisher House was suggested, as it too was a favored charity of Gary’s. Considering the outstanding services this charity provides to service members, veterans, and their families, we knew Fisher House would be a great charity for Gen Con to support. We later found out that we had been misinformed as to CCF’s position in regards to D&D and Gen Con, but by then we had already chosen Fisher House as our charity, and announcements and promotions were already made and in the works, such that it would not have been possible to change charities at that point.
To be clear, Gen Con made the decision not to donate to CCF; at no time did CCF refuse to take charity money from Gen Con. Gen Con chooses a show charity long before Gen Con Indy 2008 ever takes place.
I have sent an email to The Partnership that runs www.livegameauctions.com and asked them to make sure the information being presented and discussed on their website is updated and accurate regarding this issue. I would also like to ask each of you to do your part in setting the record straight by contacting the various websites, blogs, etc. that you are active on, and where this issue is being discussed, to make sure they have their facts correct as well. The statement on Wikinews purporting to be from a Gen Con staff member is completely incorrect, as Gen Con staff has never commented on this subject …until now.
If there are any further questions or points of clarification, please feel free to contact me personally at jeannette@gencon.com.
Thank you.
Jeannette LeGault
Director of Event Programming - Gen Con LLC
"CCF said they would of course accept donations raised by our events but they did not want the name of their organization to appear in any advertising related to the convention due to its association with Dungeons & Dragons."
That's very insulting.
"We were informed by a person at CCF that they would not be able to provide us with these materials, apparently due to our association with D&D." and "We later found out that we had been misinformed as to CCF’s position in regards to D&D and Gen Con"
So then WHY did CCF turn down the opportunity to be the official charity of Gen Con this year? They have provided their logo and promotional materials to other causes. What is it about the situation with Gen Con that's different?
It still looks like D&D and a load of horse hockey excuses to me.
__________________
New Terminator movie = Awesome!
I'd just like to point everyone to my new News post on this subject, which incorporates both CCF's response and GenCon's statement.
For my money, this whole thing still smells "fishy" to me, but if all parties are to be taken at their word, then rejecting gamers' money was never an official position. Personally, I feel like the real test will be whether GenCon chooses to try to dedicate their charity auction to them again, and whether CCF will accept it then. If it turns out those "specific criteria" for using their name include, "Doesn't promote roleplaying games," well, then we're right back where we started. I don't think it's an improvement for them to be willing to take our money but not let us say in print that they're taking our money.
I'm not sure I quite buy the CCF's response, it seems to me rather like a PR damage-control move. (Or I have been watching too much politics.) Nevertheless they can probably be granted the benefit of the doubt here, and if they really are reviewing their policies now because of this incident, I'll accept that a mistake was made and let it go.
You know, I've asked a couple of times now...Don't think I got an answer...
Is D&D the only game at GenCon? If not, what other games are present?
Not remotely. In fact, GenCon isn't even strictly roleplaying games. It's about gaming in general. Card games, board games, computer games of all varieties, dice games, and of course RPG's representing most every conceivable genre are represented. And when you get bored of the games, there are books and an art gallery and music you can support to while away the hours.
Not remotely. In fact, GenCon isn't even strictly roleplaying games. It's about gaming in general. Card games, board games, computer games of all varieties, dice games, and of course RPG's representing most every conceivable genre are represented. And when you get bored of the games, there are books and an art gallery and music you can support to while away the hours.
So, stay with me here, could part of what happened be because of GenCon, not D&D?
That is, could there be materials present/sold at GenCon that CCF may find more directly objectionable? Like the Book of Erotic Fantasy, or such?
Not saying that's the case, but just wanted to throw that out there...
I think that's less likely, actually. That'd be sort of along the lines of not supporting an artist's convention because sometimes artists paint nudes. GenCon is a family oriented affair and a lot of people bring their kids to it. If the shelves were over run with books like the BoEF, the whole thing would have an entirely different atmosphere.
I believe that what transpired was far less nefarious than what has been speculated in these pages. It's possible, mind you, that D&D had some part in the decision (D&D, while not the only game represented, is far and away the most largely represented. The WotC corner of the vendor's hall is several times larger than that of any other vendor present and there are a great many other vendors who's products support that specific hobby.) but I'm inclined to believe that the Jack Chick's don't work in high profile, decision making positions of international charitable organizations precisely because that kind of world view causes this kind of backlash.
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Re: Charity Rejects D&D Money - Let's Write Letters!
