Hmmmm.... but if accepting the 17,000 dollar donation from Gen-Con would have caused someone who donated more than 17,000 dollars from donating, then wouldn't that be in the worst interests of the children? The charity would have less money overall, and they wouldn't have as much money to spend on children in need?
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Good letter, I sent one as well that said just about the exact same thing. I would post it but I don't know how to use the spoiler tags.
Do this but use [] not {} {spoiler}The text that is to go in the box {/spoiler}
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It is a contraction of Evil DM Mark 3. I don't know why why so many have difficulty with a standard contraction but there we are. In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded
Sir Terry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tirian
He may secretly be the World's Greatest Detective, but I think that the average person in the DC Universe thinks of Bruce Wayne as the World's Worst Skier.
i sent mine. by the way, hi to everyone who i havent seen in ages (masked llama, mostly)
they sent me the same generic response they sent you, evildmmk3. i dont think they are reading these anymore, simply sending out the same 'nice' reply. so, let us analyze that reply.
Quote:
Christian Children’s Fund made the decision to decline the gift from Gen Con, LLC as the request presented to us gave the appearance that CCF (the organization) was an endorser or supporter of a gaming convention, which CCF was not. As many non-profit organizations, CCF is selective in its endorsements or support in order to maintain the integrity of its name and logo. We cannot lend our name to an event for which we have no involvement. This decision should in no way be interpreted as CCF holding an opinion on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeons and Dragons.
sentence 1, translation: we did not want the money because it made it seem like we supported the people who gave us the money.
sentence 2, translation: like other groups, we choose who we want based upon what we value. (loosley translating integrity to mean something that, in your eyes, makes you look like something other people would trust).
sentence 3, translation: we cannot say we were a part of something when we were not there.
sentence 4, translation: this does not mean we don't like you or your game.
while they had the decency to say at the end that the dont hate us, there is still some... discrepancy is the word i am looking for, i believe. all letters should now be asking "what about gencon would lower your integrity?" to which the answer will probably be "because we were not supporting gencon at all" which should be replied in turn with "are you or representatives involved with every group that gives you money?" maybe the answer to that will be yes. ::shrug:: or maybe this wont change a thing. but take my translation and have fun.
i sent mine. by the way, hi to everyone who i havent seen in ages (masked llama, mostly)
they sent me the same generic response they sent you, evildmmk3. i dont think they are reading these anymore, simply sending out the same 'nice' reply. so, let us analyze that reply.
I expected as much, but now on one can call us uninformed knee-jerk internet troglodytes that spew hatred at the smallest perceived slights and give the other side no chance to defend themselves. (We are informed knee-jerk internet troglodytes that spew hatred at the smallest perceived slights and give the other side a chance to defend themselves.)
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It is a contraction of Evil DM Mark 3. I don't know why why so many have difficulty with a standard contraction but there we are. In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded
Sir Terry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tirian
He may secretly be the World's Greatest Detective, but I think that the average person in the DC Universe thinks of Bruce Wayne as the World's Worst Skier.
I was informed through an online gaming news website that a recent $1700+ donation was declined due to the fact that some of the money came from selling Dungeons and Dragons books at GenCon during a fund raiser in memory of the late Gary Gygax. I trust this site as reputable and they urged their readers to email you and convey their disapproval. I myself am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player and I am aware of the Stigma that it is devil worship. I have been playing the game for more than five years and I assure you, my fellow players and myself are all very normal people. Three of my fellow players attend church regularly and one of them is a Pastors son. I am more upset for the children that will go without this money than the actual refusal. I believe that it was a silly move to turn down the donation to the detriment of these kids. I wish to convey my disapproval and earnest hope that future attempts at donation will not meet with the same answer.
Thank you for your time in reading this email and I wish you great success in the future in bringing good fortune to the needy children of the world.
Christian Children’s Fund made the decision to decline the gift from Gen Con, LLC as the request presented to us gave the appearance that CCF (the organization) was an endorser or supporter of a gaming convention, which CCF was not. As many non-profit organizations, CCF is selective in its endorsements or support in order to maintain the integrity of its name and logo. We cannot lend our name to an event for which we have no involvement. This decision should in no way be interpreted as CCF holding an opinion on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeons and Dragons.
Not only is this reply a form letter, but its also horse****.
Charities have been accepting the donations of the GenCon charity auction since the second such show in 1969, before D&D was even invented. Never once has the money been refused by any charity, to my knowledge. Case in point, as mentioned, Fisher House didn't see the same legal issues with accepting the money or lending their name, nor did last year's recipient, Cristel House. The idea that all charities regularly reject money donated as a result of events in which they have no organizing hand is utter crap, cooked up by their customer service department after the fact to answer angry emails.
The idea that all charities regularly reject money donated as a result of events in which they have no organizing hand is utter crap, cooked up by their customer service department after the fact to answer angry emails.
Quite true and the fact that CCF isn't some sort of weird exception this general practice is evident by their working with Capital One on a percent donation credit card bearing their logo. I don't suppose they had any hand in deciding who would be approved for the card or what the APR would be, do you?
I think they might have gotten to help pick the design schemes available on the faces of the cards though. Maybe if Gen Con had offered to let them help decorate they would have taken the donation. Sure.
Quite true and the fact that CCF isn't some sort of weird exception this general practice is evident by their working with Capital One on a percent donation credit card bearing their logo. I don't suppose they had any hand in deciding who would be approved for the card or what the APR would be, do you?
I think they might have gotten to help pick the design schemes available on the faces of the cards though. Maybe if Gen Con had offered to let them help decorate they would have taken the donation. Sure.
Who's to say what they buy with that card too? A person with that card could very well be buying DnD books. The card leaves it a lot more open ended than the straight money donation from DnD books. Why deny donations from DnD stuff and accept donations from a source that you have no idea where it came from?
Last edited by powerdemon : 10-31-2008 at 04:32 PM.
Add to that the small fact that credit cards are what traditional morality might call 'Usury'. As a rule, in the modern age when you give someone a credit card, you're encouraging them to put themselves under a load of debt at the highest interest rates legally available for purely consumer purchase.
Not only is this reply a form letter, but its also horse****.
Charities have been accepting the donations of the GenCon charity auction since the second such show in 1969, before D&D was even invented. Never once has the money been refused by any charity, to my knowledge. Case in point, as mentioned, Fisher House didn't see the same legal issues with accepting the money or lending their name, nor did last year's recipient, Cristel House. The idea that all charities regularly reject money donated as a result of events in which they have no organizing hand is utter crap, cooked up by their customer service department after the fact to answer angry emails.
(Also, I'm sticky-ing this, that's how mad I am.)
We have aroused the sleeping Giant! ( )
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beholder1995
Lupy, you have officially reached that point known as 'awesome'.
Add to that the small fact that credit cards are what traditional morality might call 'Usury'. As a rule, in the modern age when you give someone a credit card, you're encouraging them to put themselves under a load of debt at the highest interest rates legally available for purely consumer purchase.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
Agreed and seconded.
Quote:
We have aroused the sleeping Giant! ( )
Yay, I'm excited to have posted in the same thread as you :P.
Not sure if this is mentioned elsewhere but i'm new and this really ticked me off.
Any lawyers want to verify for me what section 501(c)(3) of the IRS tax code is referring to on its website when it says:
"A section 501(c)(3) organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, such as the creator or the creator's family, shareholders of the organization, other designated individuals, or persons controlled directly or indirectly by such private interests. No part of the net earnings of a section 501(c)(3) organization may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. A private shareholder or individual is a person having a personal and private interest in the activities of the organization"
Am I in understanding that the Christian Children's Fund violated their tax exemption by deeming the receipt of the fully and honestly given money as ethically questionable?
Also, I visited the Better Business Bureau and noted that under #18 of their Standards for Charity Accountability that it states:
"b.providing a clear, prominent and easily accessible privacy policy on any of its websites that tells visitors (i) what information, if any, is being collected about them by the charity and how this information will be used, (ii) how to contact the charity to review personal information collected and request corrections, (iii) how to inform the charity (e.g., a check off box) that the visitor does not wish his/her personal information to be shared outside the organization, and (iv) what security measures the charity has in place to protect personal information"
Did they actually issue a statement that it was refused on the grounds of what GENcon represented? If so, did they not collect information on the effort unethically and misuse information given? Can we get that revoked too?
EDIT: I just noted that canned response called it a "gaming convention" meaning they researched it without telling GENcon organizers. Even that little note might be enough.
They violated their mission statement by not accepting the money, there's nothing a hate more than a charity that thinks it's "too good" for your effort.
My apologies for the long post, i'm just pissed.
Last edited by satsunada : 10-31-2008 at 05:18 PM.
Not only is this reply a form letter, but its also horse****.
Ohhh, yeah- I missed the 'no involvement' line. ...Well, in that case, they're also being dishonest.
But, uh... I still reckon the practical ramifications of being seen to associate with D&D may be more of a consideration for them. I mean, given they took flak for not pushing a religious agenda during their work, combined with the frightening number of people who take Jack Chick remotely seriously, I can sorta understand the bind they're in: charities deal in many thousands, even millions of dollars each year- is it worth the risk of alienating your strongest donor base, even temporarily, over the sum of $17K?
That said, I can also completely understand being pissed about it, and alienating the gamer demographic is also a measurable consequence of their actions- so... flame away, I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by satsunada
"A section 501(c)(3) organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests... ...A private shareholder or individual is a person having a personal and private interest in the activities of the organization"
I'm no lawyer, but I don't see how 'the christian fringe' would count as a 'private interest' by this definition. I also don't see how anyone at the organisation could personally profit from turning down money. There's definitely something shady going on here, but you may be reaching a wee bit.
Quote:
Did they actually issue a statement that it was refused on the grounds of what GENcon represented? If so, did they not collect information on the effort unethically and misuse information given? Can we get that revoked too?
Uh... it's hardly a personal secret that GenCon is associated with D&D.
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i dont think this organization truly realized what it has gotten itself into. for fun and to show a friend, i googled the story and almost every major gaming forum has not just the story, but The Giants exact article copypasta'd into it. and you can bet your britches that the internet superheroes will have sent hundreds of letters about it by now.
also, here is something i found that is interesting.... a video on youtube added in august in which the speech given by the big G.G.'s son talked about the charity change. why did it only come out of the dark now? why hadn't we heard of it until today?
link related, its the auction of the giant 20d that was auctioned at gencon, and includes the speech that gary's son gave about the other charity that money went to. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLJ4x...eature=related
Last edited by CabbageTheif : 10-31-2008 at 06:12 PM.
Am I in understanding that the Christian Children's Fund violated their tax exemption by deeming the receipt of the fully and honestly given money as ethically questionable?
There is no law that says any organization has to take your money, for any reason or for no reason. Their loss.
Don't sweat it. Pray for them, if you're of the mind. Write them a nasty gram. And find a similar charity (World Vision comes to mind) that doesn't have the same hangup.
I understand the righteous fury everyone's feeling, but, especially after the reply EvilDM posted, I wonder if their stance on the $17k stemmed from some lawyer employed by the CCF. He might have looked at the standard contract GenCon Ltd. drew up, and some bit of verbiage may have looked to him as though CCF was in some way sponsoring GenCon. (Complete rubbish, of course, but hear me out.)
As satsunada pointed out, CCF is a 501(c)(3) organization; this means it gets federal tax exemption, and must follow certain rules in order to keep this exemption. Not too surprisingly, organizations like this tend to be very careful not to violate those rules. It's possible that that could be the reason; it's possible they had a knee-jerk reaction when the words "Dungeons" and "Dragons" got connected by an ampersand; it's possible there's other reasons for this that I'm not aware of; it's possible that it's all of these to some degree.
The biggest loser in all of this? EGG wasn't able to donate $17k to his favorite charity through the sale of his creations. With luck, the ghost of Gygax will haunt CCF's halls until they not only issue an apology, but the board members all make characters and are forced to play through "Tomb of Horrors" until they all make it out alive.
With luck, the ghost of Gygax will haunt CCF's halls until they not only issue an apology, but the board members all make characters and are forced to play through "Tomb of Horrors" until they all make it out alive.
you, sir, are a cruel and sadistic bastard. i love you.
That said, I can also completely understand being pissed about it, and alienating the gamer demographic is also a measurable consequence of their actions- so... flame away, I guess.
Well, exactly. They made a calculated decision that any lost donations and bad press from this move would be outweighed by the support of their regular donors. And maybe that's true, but that doesn't mean we should allow them to have their cake and eat it too by NOT publicly objecting.
But I just can't do with this fancy language in English.
I don't know what happened to me, I used to be able to perfectly fine.....<.<
If you want, type out your letter and then pm it to me so I can tweak it for you. I'll send it right back with the corrections, so you can personally send it.
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I also sent them an email. I'm an Evangelical Christian myself, and I was shocked to see this happen. I won't be posting my letter here due to its Scripture-quotes, but suffice to say I've sent in my two coppers as well.
"I dunno, you just gave me the image of a nerd flying slow motion over a coffee table towards another nerd, dual wielding massive books. It was awesome." -- Marriclay
I find this action to be extremely unfortunate and condemn it strongly, and did as much in the email I just sent to them.
My wife and I are both avid gamers, and even more avid Christians, and we use these games not only for fun and recreation but also as a Christian outreach to our non-Christian friends, and this really disturbs us both.
for fun and to show a friend, i googled the story and almost every major gaming forum has not just the story, but The Giants exact article copypasta'd into it.
I'm one of those. I linked to Rich's news post, and attributed the quote to him.
I'm not quite sure how one can send throat-punches through the internet, but I will find a way. These people certainly deserve it.
Cool off. I understand that Rich is upset, but hopefully that doesn't give you or anyone else the license to threaten violence against people based on their religious or political views. I haven't got much respect for the charity, but they are under the misapprehension that fantasy gamers are nothing but virtual violence freaks. How about we all step up to the plate and prove that they're wrong.
The charity in question didn't set fire to the money, it is doing good works for a different organization as we speak. Be at peace.
If you want, type out your letter and then pm it to me so I can tweak it for you. I'll send it right back with the corrections, so you can personally send it.
Cool off. I understand that Rich is upset, but hopefully that doesn't give you or anyone else the license to threaten violence against people based on their religious or political views.
I suspect that was hyperbole. No one is actually planning on punching them.
Quote:
How about we all step up to the plate and prove that they're wrong.
Indeed. The issue is exactly that many groups, exemplified by CCF here, do seem to have a perception of gamers as "virtual violence freaks" among other things. This isn't the first recent incident of gamers getting subjected to that or the other negative and unjustified stereotypes (lives in their mom's basement, worships satan, etc.) recently and publically. Others would have come up here except for that doing so would violate, or come close to violating, the no politics forum rules. An uproar about these kinds of things is long in coming and advocacy by gamers that institutions, programs, or people that hold these views shouldn't be patronized and supported (particularly when there are other equally worthwhile options, many of which were mentioned on this thread) by the gaming community. Rich has a right to be angry. Anyone who games or has friends or family who game have a right to be angry. That this kind of ignorance is, in this case, also keeping a group with a worthwile mission, helping those in need, from doing so should also make us sad. Stepping up to the plate means recognizing the situation for what it is and calling people on it as publically as possible.
Thank you Giant for posting it and bringing it to as wide attention. Thank you everyone else for writing letters and informing others.
First off, I'm not sure why there's any reason to go so gung-ho on the letter writing. Not getting the $17,000 is a perfectly fine consequence for passing it up, and I don't think that sending letter after letter is going to change anything. Besides, the money went to another charity anyway, so it's not like it went to waste.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Jay
As far as I've heard, no one has received a response other than the canned form letter/email. Not saying they haven't, but that's what I've heard to this point in time. Very disappointing.
How so? If I was a charity or organization and did something, and got a lot of angry e-mails about it, I wouldn't bother responding to each one individually and would just make one form e-mail and send it in response. I don't see anything wrong about it being a form e-mail. Feel free to complain about what the form e-mail says or what they do, but making a form e-mail is what I think would be smart to do in this case.
Also, let's not demonize the entire charity for what was probably a decision made by just a few people at the upper levels of it, especially given that it was Gary Gygax's favorite charity. I see a lot of people complaining at the charity. I don't think we should be laying the blame at the entire thing, when it's likely that only a few people in it actually made the decision.
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