from my understanding, everything was in place. EVERYTHING. and it was a last minuet decision to back out. they might say some legal mumbo jumbo, but as i understand it, the legal mj only came into effect after they found out about the d&d thing.
before=they were legally fine with endorsement being whatever it was or wasnt
after they knew= suddenly backed out, endorsement rules and regs.
Do you have linkage to share? I'm not questioning the validity of your statement, but I've been digging on teh intarwebz for over an hour and haven't seen that yet.
no linkeys, and i know that the validity of my statement is questionable. i just dont think that rich burlew would have reacted the way he did if it was as simple as an endorsement issue.
using inference, not info. thats why i started the statement with 'as i understand it'.
we will all look very silly if it turns out that rich was wrong, though. so what if we get linkeys from him?
my view is, a petition, to the charity, asking them if similar donation thing comes up, to accept it, might help.
Maybe two.
First should be solely Christian and strong christian- ministers etc, saying how they feel "Immoral D&D" arguments are wrong.
Second should be everyone else, saving they have a lot of goodwill for starving children and it would be a pity to reject it merely because of ideological differences.
Both should be phrased as politely as possible.
It won't fix money issue- already sent elsewhere, but it might shame them into rethinking.
If its a misunderstanding and it really is endorsement issue, ok, but if they know just how many ministers and parishioners approve of D&D, they might come down in favour of donations, next time.
Last edited by hamishspence : 11-02-2008 at 01:08 PM.
we will all look very silly if it turns out that rich was wrong, though. so what if we get linkeys from him?
Well, the news page does link to a report from GenCon, which gives the impression that its more than an endorsement issue. Of course, the folks that wrote the report likely have the same wariness as most of the people on this thread regarding the motives organizations with the word "Christian" in their name with respect to role-playing games. So I'm not going to write that source off as impartial.
Okay, having read through most of the posts and the various sources -- including the form letter replies -- here is what I think is the most likely scenario for what happened:
GenCon approached CCF and mentioned that they were going to do the fundraising for them, and implied that doing so would include certain "publication" or a standing with respect to the convention. As others have said here, that seems to have included an "official charity of" designation.
CCF read that, took that as a sponsorship request, and replied that they have strict rules as to that sort of thing and so could not accept that standing, at least. There was likely NO hint that they would not accept the money, just that they could not accept being published as an sort of sponsor of the convention (for various reasons that they likely didn't state, but probably didn't have much to do with D&D at all).
The GenCon people got the message and thought "Why can't they be associated in that manner with us?" and jumped to a conclusion -- not unreasonable -- that this had to do with some rather well-known Christian views about D&D. And then decided that if they were going to refuse to be associated with them because of D&D that they'd find another sponsor that they could make the "official charity". Which they did.
CCF was likely unaware of the change and possibly even expecting the donation until they got E-mails asking why they refused the donation, which they had never done.
See, one point that hasn't really been teased out is that you DON'T need the permission of the charity to hold a fundraiser for them (technically). You can take up a collection at any event and say "Proceeds will go to X charity" (it's done a lot at funerals in lieu of sending flowers). But publishing this in direct association with an event needs to be approved, and all charities have rules about this. So running an auction and giving the proceeds to the CCF wouldn't have been a problem unless GenCon wanted to advertise the CCF connection quite prominently, which they seemed to want to do. And the CCF said "No.".
So can we all drop the over-reaction and accept that there's likely a misunderstanding here, and let the people work it out without insisting that it was done for religious reasons and that the CCF hates D&D and the people who play it?
It's not an overreaction. We are all acting on the info given to us which was that they denied the donation because of the DnD products involved. Our reactions are based on the information given, not what the real information may be since we don't know for sure what happened.
It's not an overreaction. We are all acting on the info given to us which was that they denied the donation because of the DnD products involved. Our reactions are based on the information given, not what the real information may be since we don't know for sure what happened.
But you should have seen the form letter responses by now from the CCF. Are you still basing your reaction on simply what Rich posted which does not seem to be the message the CCF was trying to convey?
I sent my email back on the first page of this thread. A lot of people haven't read the entirety of this thread and are going off of the news post. I've read both responses and the last one does shed a lot of light on the situation, though it still seems to leave some holes.
True, many people are overacting. I concede that point.
I sent my email back on the first page of this thread. A lot of people haven't read the entirety of this thread and are going off of the news post. I've read both responses and the last one does shed a lot of light on the situation, though it still seems to leave some holes.
True, many people are overacting. I concede that point.
Well, let me make my statement a little clearer: I agree that, based solely on what Rich said, the reactions are not unjustified. But now that we've seen more responses and have more information, to maintain that reaction is over-reaction.
Last edited by Daimbert : 11-02-2008 at 03:25 PM.
Reason: Type on disagree versus agree
CCF read that, took that as a sponsorship request, and replied that they have strict rules as to that sort of thing and so could not accept that standing, at least.
I'm thinking that CCF may have turned down the sponsorship because they found out part of the money would be from sales of D&D products, and, theoretically, every vendor and manufacturer involved in the sale of those products could claim tax exempt status on the grounds that "We gave a portion of our profits to charity. Just ask our official sponsor, CCF!"
This would have been true if they found out the money was being raised by the sale of candy bars, magazine subscriptions, or anything else and is probably the reason behind other such regulations that many other charities have.
CCF has come under fire for NOT overtly promoting religion, so that's more evidence that this was not because of religious bias.
It seems that they just want to help children without encouraging tax fraud and are having their reputation ground up by the rumor mill.
I'm sure this has been said before, but this response by CCF does not strike me as containing an actual answer to anything; it feels like a PR coverup. They screwed up as big time as the Paypal/SA/Katrina incident, and are deservedly taking flak for it.
Given that the whole thing happened a while ago, I'm guessing they were surprised to have such a sudden blow-up about it. If the form letter that says that the charity's leader wasn't available is true, (and it should also be noted this is the weekend, where there would probably be fewer people around anyway), it's possible that they just tried to put a good form e-mail together as a band-aid until they could prepare a public statement.
Quote:
This is why I don't donate to charities that have an additional ideology beyond the charity itself. An organisation that helps starving children is excellent; whereas a Christian organisation that helps starving children, no matter how well-intended, tends to eventually get into a situation where the two goals end up in conflict. And then you get such organisations refusing to hire people who aren't devout enough, or refusing to work in countries where a "use condoms" message is being spread, and it gets messy.
I'm not certain not hiring people because they're not "devout" enough is bad as long as they make sure they get decent people and aren't shorted, but what charities have actually refused to work in countries where a "use condoms" message (or another message they dislike) is being spread?
I'm thinking that CCF may have turned down the sponsorship because they found out part of the money would be from sales of D&D products, and, theoretically, every vendor and manufacturer involved in the sale of those products could claim tax exempt status on the grounds that "We gave a portion of our profits to charity. Just ask our official sponsor, CCF!"
Uh, no. You cannot claim tax exempt status in any way by making a donation. You have to be entirely non-profit yourself. No ifs about that.
However, you may be able to make certain deductions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
I'm not certain not hiring people because they're not "devout" enough is bad as long as they make sure they get decent people and aren't shorted, but what charities have actually refused to work in countries where a "use condoms" message (or another message they dislike) is being spread?
I don't know about specific charities, but it has been a political issue regarding certain foreign aid programs. I'm not going to say any more on account of the "no politics" rules.
i am calling anteros and birdface out on being trolls.
either that or they has not read the full thing. anteros did not realize that the giant was in on this, he was 4 posts away from my post describing exactly what I hoped to get out of the letters (and it would behoove birdface to read it, as well) and, as a person who has been posting since page... 2 or 3, i cant recall any attacks on christianity itself. maybe on them for being silly christians (replace silly with any number of negative descriptors) but the fact of the matter is, describing them as silly is true, and describing them as christian is true. i have not once felt insulted by this thread, and i know other christians posting here will agree.
chill guys, any issue that may or may not be here is being exasperated by your rash posting.
I'm a troll for disagreeing with you, and being upset that people are bashing my religion. That's a very unique definition of troll you have there. I already provided about six or seven very innapropriate quotations from people in this thread in order to back my point, but by all means continue to call me a troll. Anyone who disagrees with you or gets upset by what you say is obviously a troll.
The Giant directly asked people to not involve religion in this. As a result, I would expect them to not involve religion in this. When they ignore this request, I would expect the moderators to step in.
I post here quite often and enjoy it here. You'll note that by far the largest number of my posts are not argumentative, and you have no right to call me a troll. Personally, I would like to be able to continue posting here without seeing my religion insulted every few posts.
Thank you for writing to Anne Goddard and sharing your concerns. Anne was traveling when she received your email. We discussed your concern and she asked that I respond on her behalf. Please know that we take your email very seriously.
There appears to be a misunderstanding which I would like to correct. When Gen Con contacted CCF about its auction, we were pleased to accept donations. However, we couldn’t lend our name for publication because our policies have specific criteria for endorsements. We were unaware that this had caused any problem or concern for Gen Con until we began receiving emails. This decision was in no way intended to be a reflection on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeon and Dragons. We have the utmost respect for the gaming community and were touched by the generosity expressed through your auction. We were disappointed that we were not the recipients of the donation but we were pleased that another worthy organization benefited.
We realize this has become a topic of discussion in the gaming community and we hope you will help us by sharing this response.
The needs of children are great and we welcome your support. Should you wish to learn more we invite you to visit our website at http://www.christianchildrensfund.org.
Again, I thank you for taking the time to voice your concern. Your passion for gaming and your support for children are admirable.
Sincerely,
Cheri Dahl
Vice President, International Communications and Fundraising
Christian Children's Fund
2821 Emerywood Parkway
Richmond, Virginia 23294
(804) 756-2702
Well, I don't know if we can trust this quotation (you never now these days...), but from my point of view I can't see anything wrong about the whole thing. If people at Gen Con and/or christianchildrensfund weren't able (or willing) to negotiate through this thing, both parties were right. Gen Con propably wanted to use the donation for some marketing actions while the christianchildrensfund had concerns about their name and reputation being used for exactly that purpose.
Nothing to get wild about, realy. So please calm down, call some of your friends and dive into some decent dnd...
I have no problem with the Giant himself, because I can see where he is asking people not to say such things, but I have lost a great, great deal of respect for both our moderators and the community of this board.
Forgive me, for this will sound rude. However, when people post things like this, I get confused.
If you feel this way, then why are you even still here? If you don't like the forum, leave. Simple as that.
Although you do raise a good point, and I can understand why you're feeling attacked.
Guys, please, leave religon out of this, as much as possible. Or at least try not to sound baised - not all Christians are right-wing. And there are several here. Remember what your mother told you - "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all". It's good advice, you should take it. (Bolded for eye-catchy-ness)
Edit: Pepebe, I don't think you should trust that one - it's a form letter. They made it longer, true, but it's nothing less then a laugh.
Quote:
Thank you for writing to Anne Goddard and sharing your concerns. Anne was traveling when she received your email. We discussed your concern and she asked that I respond on her behalf. Please know that we take your email very seriously.
So, Anne Goddard read all our emails, and took them serriously? Suuuure.
Forgive me, for this will sound rude. However, when people post things like this, I get confused.
If you feel this way, then why are you even still here? If you don't like the forum, leave. Simple as that.
Although you do raise a good point, and I can understand why you're feeling attacked.
The thing is that I do enjoy posting here very much, and until this incident nothing like this has ever occured. That's why I am posting here, asking people to clean this up. Otherwise, yes, I will be forced to stop posting here. And that would be a shame.
i think that makes it more specific, yes. so, it was not a last minuet thing. we still dont know their exact motives, but i doubt we ever will.
personally, if you havent sent a letter yet i am all for sending one now just to get the point across (see my post on page six to know what the 'point' is) and call it a day.
and anteros, i suppose i used slang that not everyone would understand and for that i apologize. a troll is someone who says things only to try and get a rise out of other people. a common way to do that is to jump on a thread and disagree strongly with the mainstream argument. so, since you are sincere, no you are not a troll. i still find you brash and abrasive.
Last edited by CabbageTheif : 11-02-2008 at 06:42 PM.
i think that makes it more specific, yes. so, it was not a last minuet thing. we still dont know their exact motives, but i doubt we ever will.
personally, if you havent sent a letter yet i am all for sending one now just to get the point across (see my post on page six to know what the 'point' is) and call it a day.
and anteros, i suppose i used slang that not everyone would understand and for that i apologize. a troll is someone who says things only to try and get a rise out of other people. a common way to do that is to jump on a thread and disagree strongly with the mainstream argument. so, since you are sincere, no you are not a troll. i still find you brash and abrasive.
That's fair enough. Reading several pages of people insulting my religion in a place I come to relax tends to make me brash and abrasive, for which I apologize. But I am no less upset.
Guys, please, leave religon out of this, as much as possible. Or at least try not to sound baised - not all Christians are right-wing. And there are several here. Remember what your mother told you - "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all". It's good advice, you should take it. (Bolded for eye-catchy-ness)
Thank you Moon_Called. I second this. (And would like to say that not all conservatives still support feudalism. )
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Originally Posted by Beholder1995
Lupy, you have officially reached that point known as 'awesome'.
"I'm glad to know that your charity is doing so well that you can now pick and choose who you accept money from. I guess the children that our money would have benefited can survive on your moral superiority."
"I'm glad to know that your charity is doing so well that you can now pick and choose who you accept money from. I guess the children that our money would have benefited can survive on your moral superiority."
Because there are no other charities in the world and now we're just going to have to throw all that money away. Yup. No other possible way to get that money to the children. Oh well.
I should note that I agree with everyone that this charity should not turn this money down (although we don't even know their reasons.) But people are blowing this way out of proportion.
I find it sad that what started as something that the forums were all in agreement on has turned into something that has made people consider leaving them
i think that there were probably formalities that stopped the money from being accepted by CCF, I think that it may have been a bad idea for them to not except it because of the bad image that it seems to be giving them, but i really doubt that it was because it had any thing to do with the fact that the money came partly from sales of D&D. I hope that most people will have accepted that we are not a bunch of Satanists and that there is no need to fear any money we give to charity, i hope......
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Actually, I find your opinion perfectly reasonable. I'd be surprised if many people took issue with it.
He's talking 'bout me!
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And then my father comes at me with the teapot and says "Why. So. British?"
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Hey, I can wait. I'm young with my entire life ahead of me. I'll dream of empires amongst the stars in worlds undreamt of if I wanna :p
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There are no citizens, mind bananas. Go back to your control.
How so? If I was a charity or organization and did something, and got a lot of angry e-mails about it, I wouldn't bother responding to each one individually and would just make one form e-mail and send it in response.
Yep. Plus, if they wrote individual emails, there would now be flames about flip-flopping etc. etc.
Btw, did it ever occur to anybody that furiously denouncing Gary Gygax' favorite charity may not exactly be the best way to honor the memory of Gary Gygax?
That's not what they think. They rejected the donations based on a purely business point, and a very idiotic point at that.
Could we please start responding based on the clarifications that we now KNOW are the case?
1) There is no evidence that the CCF rejected the donations. As was pointed out in the cited post the CCF simply rejected being the official charity of GenCon. GenCon then went with another charity and gave the money to them instead. From the form letter, CCF weren't even aware that they weren't going to get the donation until people E-mailed them asking why they rejected them.
2) CCF is totally within its rights to decide what events they feel they can officially sponsor. This incurs no moral or logical sanction. It would be nice if the CCF would state what the reason was, but that they haven't yet done that is not reason to assume what it was.
I think that Rich should update the news post with the new information. Leaving it as is just encourages more people to react strongly to the issue when the reality is not as stated.
Could we please start responding based on the clarifications that we now KNOW are the case?
1) There is no evidence that the CCF rejected the donations. As was pointed out in the cited post the CCF simply rejected being the official charity of GenCon. GenCon then went with another charity and gave the money to them instead. From the form letter, CCF weren't even aware that they weren't going to get the donation until people E-mailed them asking why they rejected them.
2) CCF is totally within its rights to decide what events they feel they can officially sponsor. This incurs no moral or logical sanction. It would be nice if the CCF would state what the reason was, but that they haven't yet done that is not reason to assume what it was.
I think that Rich should update the news post with the new information. Leaving it as is just encourages more people to react strongly to the issue when the reality is not as stated.
This. Please, Giant, change the news post. Right now it simply stirs up bad feelings without us even being sure of what occured. It's a bit unfair to CCF, at least as far as our understanding from current information goes.
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