[4E] Balance and the "Oversized" Ability

[RTGoodman]

Since 4E came out almost a year ago, there've been folks that talked about how overpowered the Oversized racial ability of certain MM races is/was. I'm not gonna disagree, and apparently WotC doesn't either, considering every full race write-up in Dragon has removed that particular property from each race that originally had it. It is VERY good; in fact, it overshadows a lot of other race features.

But I was just thinking - would it still be considered cheesy and overpowered if it were, for instance, a Paragon-tier racial feat for Goliaths, Bugbears, Minotaurs, and/or certain other races? Or as an Epic-tier (non-racial) feat? What if it had several prerequisites (Str 21, trained in Endurance, and/or something else)? What about if it were a Paragon Path feature or Epic Destiny feature?

[Osiris_Shadowblade]

It is an Epic Desiny Feature. The Eternal Defender (I think) is the one that has it.

[Arbitrarity]

Still too powerful, especially as a feat. It's at least +1/[W], which is better than weapon focus for many powers.
With weapons likely to be used by people taking it, it's +2/[W], or even up to 3.5 and a bit/[W] (Vorpal Executioners Axe. Mmmm, 2d6 brutal 2)

A PP level 16 feature, MAYBE. Depends on the rest of the PP. Same with ED. Those are really significant choices, and severely limit character options for other cheese.

Yeah, Eternal Defender has Godlike Stature. Not too bad, nice reach increase. That's a nice power for a Eternal seeker, since most 24'th level abilities are junk.

Mmm, Bugbear Eternal Defender with a Mordenkrad. 2d10 brutal 1?

[Colmarr]

Originally Posted by Arbitrarity

Still too powerful, especially as a feat. It's... better than weapon focus for many powers.

But so are Dwarven Weapon Training and Eladrin soldier, and they're heroic feats.

I quite like the idea of it as a paragon/epic racial feat, but it would be difficult to word. You'd either need to limit it to specific species once and for all, or have different versions for different species.

[Thajocoth]

Originally Posted by Arbitrarity

(Vorpal Executioners Axe. Mmmm, 2d6 brutal 2)

Brutality - Intent:

Khopesh - 1d8, brutal 1
Craghammer - 1d10, brutal 2
Kukri - 1d6, brutal 1
Execution Axe - 1d12, brutal 2
Mordenkrad - 2d6, brutal 1

It is my belief, based on this evidence, that a brutal weapon's amount of brutality is supposed to correspond to die size. That is, a weapon that uses d6s or d8s is not supposed to exceed brutal 1, while a brutal weapon that uses d10s or d12s is supposed to be brutal 2.

Therefore, if someone in a campaign of mine chose to play a bugbear, or gained an oversized weapon somehow else, I'd rule that an oversized Execution Axe is 2d6, brutal 1... The same damage levels as the Mordenkrad. Then when they go "Oh, come ON!", I'd say "Well, we haven't started playing yet. You can change your character creation decisions, but be quick about it.", then they'd probably say "Fine, I guess I'll go with an oversized Mordenkrad instead. 2d8 brutal 1. If I find something that increases my die size again, would that become 2d10 brutal 2?", to which I'd reply, "Yep, but good luck finding that. And keep in mind I will increase encounter difficulty if you twink too much."

Though, this actually makes the Oversized Khopesh the awesome upgrade. It's a 1-handed military axe/heavy blade, and the oversize would increase it's brutality in my opinion. Great for, say, a Bugbear Swordmage or a Bugbear 2-weapon character...

[Kurald Galain]

Originally Posted by rtg0922

considering every full race write-up in Dragon has removed that particular property from each race that originally had it.

If by "every" and "each" you mean that it happened once, then yes.

Personally I find it silly how quickly something in 4E is considered "overpowered" and worthy of removing from the rulebooks.

[Sinfire Titan]

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

If by "every" and "each" you mean that it happened once, then yes.

Personally I find it silly how quickly something in 4E is considered "overpowered" and worthy of removing from the rulebooks.

Ditto here. Veteran's Armor, anyone? The errata could have gone one of two ways, and it went straight down the wrong hill. They could have restricted it by the level of the armor, but they decided to make it useless outright.

[Dark_Scary]

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

If by "every" and "each" you mean that it happened once, then yes.

Personally I find it silly how quickly something in 4E is considered "overpowered" and worthy of removing from the rulebooks.

Are you kidding, they still haven't fixed Orb of Imposition, and they keep adding penalty to save items and feats, every save ends power of a Wizard is just a lock until death nowdays.

Not to mention the immortal Beast Ranger. I mean, yeah it doesn't kick in till epic, but still.

[Dhavaer]

Originally Posted by Colmarr

I quite like the idea of it as a paragon/epic racial feat, but it would be difficult to word. You'd either need to limit it to specific species once and for all, or have different versions for different species.

You could give them a racial ability called 'Oversized' which has only a very minor effect, and have that as a pre-req.