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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Discord
Haha, ShinyDelusion, I loved the part when Roy commented about Haley's look. You just know she's insatiable. :smallwink:
One things that bugs me, though, is why Miko and V would check the other room for people talking in it? I'd understand if they were screams of passion, but simple sentences shouldn't inspire them to check.
Anyway, can I hope for some V x Miko in the future? :smalltongue:
I seriously doubt Elan and Haley remembered to sign the sign-in sheet, which Miko would want to report to Principal Shojo.
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Discord
Haha, ShinyDelusion, I loved the part when Roy commented about Haley's look. You just know she's insatiable. :smallwink:
One things that bugs me, though, is why Miko and V would check the other room for people talking in it? I'd understand if they were screams of passion, but simple sentences shouldn't inspire them to check.
Anyway, can I hope for some V x Miko in the future? :smalltongue:
P.S. What happened to you was really unfair, Coffee. :smallfrown: *hugs*
Thanks! As for checking for talking, I guess that is a little weird. (Unless at this particular high school the practice rooms get used that way so often, which wouldn't be a surprise... Or maybe V said something like "That sounds like Roy/Haley" neither of which I can see playing an instrument or being in choir.)
Maybe. After all, Elan noted that they were using one of the more neglected practice rooms, possibly for the same reason our little threesome did the same...
:elan: Duhn duhn DUHN!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sstoopidtallkid
I seriously doubt Elan and Haley remembered to sign the sign-in sheet, which Miko would want to report to Principal Shojo.
Heheh, I can see it now!
:roy: We're getting detention... For not signing in?
:elan: Miko reported the other part, but Mr. Scruffy told Principal Shojo that couldn't possibly be true.
:roy: Why? And how do you know that?
:haley: Because "Mr. Scruffy" thinks I'm too smart to do this kind of thing in the first place, much less with you two. *sigh*
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Haha, true. Thanks, both of you. :smallsmile:
Though, personally, I can't see V or Miko using the soundproof room for the same reason as Haley and the others, but I guess that's because it's my innocent ship: only chaste kissing and cuddling for them. And they're perfectly happy with that. :smalltongue:
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Discord
Haha, true. Thanks, both of you. :smallsmile:
Though, personally, I can't see V or Miko using the soundproof room for the same reason as Haley and the others, but I guess that's because it's my innocent ship: only chaste kissing and cuddling for them. And they're perfectly happy with that. :smalltongue:
Maybe since they wouldn't need the soundproof in that case they're just looking for the privacy. d'aw.
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Dark Fiddler
There is no 'Smurf dude'. Do you perhaps mean Water-Smurf, who is a dude-ette? :smalltongue:
Me answers thats me forgetts names.
Anyway I STILL Wonder How Tzukio or whatever killed an entire group of high level pcs. Unless they literally drank Energy drian potions i think they would kick her ass (Or stab if your belkar)
Oh and Coffee Dude (Remember I cannot remember names well) I feel ya. Bieng a teanager sucks.
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
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Originally Posted by
Oooohaloophole
Me answers thats me forgetts names.
Anyway I STILL Wonder How Tzukio or whatever killed an entire group of high level pcs. Unless they literally drank Energy drian potions i think they would kick her ass (Or stab if your belkar)
Oh and Coffee Dude (Remember I cannot remember names well) I feel ya. Bieng a teanager sucks.
The OotS is hardly optimized. They have an Evoker, a TWF Ranger with a Wis penalty, a Core-only bard with a combat-focused PrC, and a Fighter.Haley and Dorkun are the only optimized ones. Tsukiko may be a MT, but she has several levels on them, likely a bevy of minions for support, and she's clever in her own idiotic way.
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
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Originally Posted by
Sstoopidtallkid
The OotS is hardly optimized. They have an Evoker, a TWF Ranger with a Wis penalty, a Core-only bard with a combat-focused PrC, and a Fighter.Haley and Dorkun are the only optimized ones. Tsukiko may be a MT, but she has several levels on them, likely a bevy of minions for support, and she's clever in her own idiotic way.
Then how can haley alone take on Tziokiopiobdokioloipopopor/Mind controled paladin/A few Undead creatures.
Hope this is the end of that question
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
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Originally Posted by
CoffeeIncluded
No it has not. He just tried to set off those party poppers at me and then kicked me in the face when I refused to clean them up for him.
And now he's screaming gibberish downstairs.
:eek: Good grief... I feel sorry for you. My little bother is bad, but not that bad in public. Hopefully your bother will improve over the next two years. (then you can high tail it out of there to collage :smalltongue:).
*hugs CoffeeIncluded* :smallsmile:
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
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Originally Posted by
Oooohaloophole
Then how can haley alone take on Tziokiopiobdokioloipopopor/Mind controled paladin/A few Undead creatures.
Hope this is the end of that question
The dice still rule the universe. :smalltongue:
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Originally Posted by
Oooohaloophole
Coffee Dude (Remember I cannot remember names well)
Also of the female persuasion. :smalltongue:
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
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Originally Posted by
The Dark Fiddler
Also of the female persuasion. :smalltongue:
This problem could easily be avoided by not following people's named with 'dude'. :smalltongue:
For the record, I'm female too.
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Originally Posted by
Oooohaloophole
Me answers thats me forgetts names.
Oh and Coffee Dude (Remember I cannot remember names well)
This isn't an excuse - or even a possible problem - since peoples' names are next to every post.
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
I Will try to remember names better, anyway you might be surprised but you actualy act Very KIND in my book to me.
http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/y...nes/EvilMe.png
AHAHAHAHHAHHAAHAH KILL MURDER TEAR !
WEAPON ARE FOR ******* MY ANGER WILL ONLY BE SATISFIED BY MY 2 HANDS AND TEETH! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!
Cause this is what my classmates have driven me to fantisize to.
Ill try to draw a better version Of infernal scion tiasal.
If the order is dead, why are they not resurected? If this is just a cheep way to say "YESS NO MORE AWKWARD WRITING!" I say you fail.
Oh and sorry for callig you DUDES, (Cause I am).
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
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Originally Posted by
Discord
Anyway, can I hope for some V x Miko in the future? :smalltongue:
Actually, that's my current project, but it's really slow-going. :smallsigh: Speaking of which, can anyone think of a general term for a place of worship? The only one I can think of is church, which isn't what I'm going for.
@ Coffee: That stinks. :smallfrown: Having brothers with issues is not fun in any sense of the word.
Also, just for future reference, I am also female.
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
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Originally Posted by
CheeseMuncher
Actually, that's my current project, but it's really slow-going. :smallsigh: Speaking of which, can anyone think of a general term for a place of worship? The only one I can think of is church, which isn't what I'm going for.
Yay! :D
Will temple or shrine do?
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
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Originally Posted by
CheeseMuncher
Actually, that's my current project, but it's really slow-going. :smallsigh: Speaking of which, can anyone think of a general term for a place of worship? The only one I can think of is church, which isn't what I'm going for.
@ Coffee: That stinks. :smallfrown: Having brothers with issues is not fun in any sense of the word.
Also, just for future reference, I am also female.
Hallowed ground? Holy site? The Gods' toilet?
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oooohaloophole
If the order is dead, why are they not resurected? If this is just a cheep way to say "YESS NO MORE AWKWARD WRITING!" I say you fail.
Not to speak for Water-smurf, but if the entire order is dead, who's going to hire the cleric to resurrect them?
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
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Originally Posted by
CoffeeIncluded
Nice work as always, Water-smurf, but a bit confusing.
Don't worry. You should be confused at this point. :smallwink:
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Originally Posted by
CoffeeIncluded
...And my brother went and ruined New Year's. More on this after I shower. [insert rest of story here]
I find myself a little torn on this because I see both ends of the spectrum. I can understand your embarrassment and anger and I completely sympathize with it, but I also sympathize with your brother because I was just like that. (Though I didn't have ADHD: I have APD.) Does he go to a special school? Is his ADHD serious (or possibly accompanied by other problems)? How old is he? The thing is, assuming that ADHD is not the direct source of the problem here, he's probably socially adjusting in a different way and rate than others. Teachers spend so much time trying to teach kids how to work past disabilities that they forget that kids need to also learn how to function outside of a classroom. I don't think he understands how embarrassing and frustrating his behavior is--he sees that he made his big sister angry so he's happy, even if he doesn't know exactly how angry she is. I did the same to my brother. (And, boy, does he remind me every chance he gets.)
Don't worry. It may take longer than it usually does and it may be harder than it is for others, but he'll grow and learn about what is appropriate and what isn't. The best you can do is try not to resent him for it all when he does finally get better.
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Originally Posted by
Oooohaloophole
Heh heh heh. Anyway a good redcloak feer would be the fact that he MURDERED 300 HOBGOBLINS AND REANIMATED THEM AS GHOULS WHO ATE THE REMIANING 50. I think I wouldnt forget that so easily.
The reason why he hasn't been tortured as much (and I'm well-aware that he has tons of issues that could be exploited, believe me) is that Vaarsuvius is the most vulnerable of the two. Even if you ignore the trauma tied to the hanged elf and the soldiers plus the rape and nightmares, she's high on hormones because of the little person growing inside. She's going to break down with much less force exerted than usual. Because of Reddy's feelings for her, the dungeon is hitting two birds with one stone: the worse off Vaarsuvius is, the more concerned Redcloak gets, the more hormones pumped into his brain, the less logical he gets, and the less effective he is at anything but protecting her. The dungeon is incapacitating them both by torturing one.
Plus, Redcloak is more likely to be taken down fast by using his feelings for Vaarsuvius than he is by being showed the people he, directly or indirectly, killed. One is an illusion and, while it would break him over time, he can rationalize it (their sacrifices were necessary! They're martyrs!) and tell himself that it doesn't exist. He's well-aware that Vaarsuvius exists, is being unwound, and he can't help it. His instinct to protect his mate has way more power over him than he knows, and that's his current downfall.
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The funny thing is every second I expected with... Tisal, tiasal whatever is that she would turn into an infernal scion , it was like "Now....how about now....yes....Wings?...."
That made me giggle. :smallbiggrin: I doubt she'll turn out to be infernal unless a spell is involved, though.
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Originally Posted by
Kaytara
By the "confusing" Good or Neutral magic signature that Aandy picks up on, do you mean Elan? Bards are technically arcane casters... :P
Really? But can't he heal?
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Tiny-ish point of criticism - I think you use descriptions like "delicate spine" and "small shoulder" a bit too often. It's good to remind the reader what the characters are physically like - painting a picture with words, as it were - but use it too much and it gets distracting. Especially if it sounds unusual, which "delicate spine" certainly does. :P
Okay, thanks. I'll cut back. I was wondering if I was getting a little gratuitous with the description. :smallsmile: (Maybe I should start using 'she' and 'her' more often. After all, with Reddy's and the unborn baby's influence, V's going to start identifying with her body/femininity a little more...)
Huh. Apparently I was imagining the you-gone-missing thing. Hi, Kaytara! :D
Anyway, I'm sure you guys have noticed by now that I ask lots of questions (like 'how would X react in Y situation?' or 'what is your impression of Z?'). I'm sorry if it's annoying, but the reason I do it is because my thoughts are often disorganized and I need someone else's opinion to attach them to. (It sounds weird, but it's like I'm given a question and I ask for someone's opinion, and they say something like 'Z is a coward.' I'm able to use that because I can then say 'Wait, I disagree' or 'Wait, I agree' and then automatically detail the whys and hows of my viewpoint. Without that first note of stability, it's really difficult to sort anything out.) I say all this because, while I'm wrestling with requests, PotG, CoP, and PM, I'm likely going to ask a lot of questions about characterization or relationships and I figured I owed a preemptive explanation and apology.
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
ShinyDelusion? I love you. That was amazing.
And thanks for your support, guys. (And yes, I am female)
Oh, and Water-Smurf? I have ADHD too.
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
I've finished colouring the V/Tsukiko picture. :smallbiggrin: I had way too much fun with this.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i.../vxtcolour.png
Any CC? This is the first time I've tried anything except cell shading...
I think I need to take a step back for now and do something cute instead of limey.
...Elan/Nale could be fun. :smallamused: Thanks for the idea Fiddler.
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Originally Posted by
CoffeeIncluded
Oh, and Water-Smurf? I have ADHD too.
They can't figure out what's wrong with me. :smallfrown:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Water-Smurf
Anyway, I'm sure you guys have noticed by now that I ask lots of questions (like 'how would X react in Y situation?' or 'what is your impression of Z?'). I'm sorry if it's annoying, but the reason I do it is because my thoughts are often disorganized and I need someone else's opinion to attach them to. (It sounds weird, but it's like I'm given a question and I ask for someone's opinion, and they say something like 'Z is a coward.' I'm able to use that because I can then say 'Wait, I disagree' or 'Wait, I agree' and then automatically detail the whys and hows of my viewpoint. Without that first note of stability, it's really difficult to sort anything out.) I say all this because, while I'm wrestling with requests, PotG, CoP, and PM, I'm likely going to ask a lot of questions about characterization or relationships and I figured I owed a preemptive explanation and apology.
I don't mind. :smalltongue: It can be fun to try to puzzle out what - any why - certain characters act how they do, especially after a tonne of character development has been dropped on them. It's not something I'm good at, and bouncing ideas around is probably good practice...
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Water-Smurf
Really? But can't he heal?
Yes, they can, but they're arcane. As far as I know, they're the only arcane class that gets healing spells without wands or scrolls or anything.
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
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Originally Posted by
The Dark Fiddler
Yes, they can, but they're arcane. As far as I know, they're the only arcane class that gets healing spells without wands or scrolls or anything.
The Dread Necromancer can heal, for certain values of 'heal'.
Also, again, if any one wants advice on D&D 3.5 rules, I know them far too well. PM me for any advice you need.
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Water-Smurf
Don't worry. You should be confused at this point. :smallwink:
I find myself a little torn on this because I see both ends of the spectrum. I can understand your embarrassment and anger and I completely sympathize with it, but I also sympathize with your brother because I was just like that. (Though I didn't have ADHD: I have APD.) Does he go to a special school? Is his ADHD serious (or possibly accompanied by other problems)? How old is he? The thing is, assuming that ADHD is not the direct source of the problem here, he's probably socially adjusting in a different way and rate than others. Teachers spend so much time trying to teach kids how to work past disabilities that they forget that kids need to also learn how to function outside of a classroom. I don't think he understands how embarrassing and frustrating his behavior is--he sees that he made his big sister angry so he's happy, even if he doesn't know exactly how angry she is. I did the same to my brother. (And, boy, does he remind me every chance he gets.)
Don't worry. It may take longer than it usually does and it may be harder than it is for others, but he'll grow and learn about what is appropriate and what isn't. The best you can do is try not to resent him for it all when he does finally get better.
The reason why he hasn't been tortured as much (and I'm well-aware that he has tons of issues that could be exploited, believe me) is that Vaarsuvius is the most vulnerable of the two. Even if you ignore the trauma tied to the hanged elf and the soldiers plus the rape and nightmares, she's high on hormones because of the little person growing inside. She's going to break down with much less force exerted than usual. Because of Reddy's feelings for her, the dungeon is hitting two birds with one stone: the worse off Vaarsuvius is, the more concerned Redcloak gets, the more hormones pumped into his brain, the less logical he gets, and the less effective he is at anything but protecting her. The dungeon is incapacitating them both by torturing one.
Plus, Redcloak is more likely to be taken down fast by using his feelings for Vaarsuvius than he is by being showed the people he, directly or indirectly, killed. One is an illusion and, while it would break him over time, he can rationalize it (their sacrifices were necessary! They're martyrs!) and tell himself that it doesn't exist. He's well-aware that Vaarsuvius exists, is being unwound, and he can't help it. His instinct to protect his mate has way more power over him than he knows, and that's his current downfall.
That made me giggle. :smallbiggrin: I doubt she'll turn out to be infernal unless a spell is involved, though.
Really? But can't he heal?
Okay, thanks. I'll cut back. I was wondering if I was getting a little gratuitous with the description. :smallsmile: (Maybe I should start using 'she' and 'her' more often. After all, with Reddy's and the unborn baby's influence, V's going to start identifying with her body/femininity a little more...)
Huh. Apparently I was imagining the you-gone-missing thing. Hi, Kaytara! :D
Anyway, I'm sure you guys have noticed by now that I ask lots of questions (like 'how would X react in Y situation?' or 'what is your impression of Z?'). I'm sorry if it's annoying, but the reason I do it is because my thoughts are often disorganized and I need someone else's opinion to attach them to. (It sounds weird, but it's like I'm given a question and I ask for someone's opinion, and they say something like 'Z is a coward.' I'm able to use that because I can then say 'Wait, I disagree' or 'Wait, I agree' and then automatically detail the whys and hows of my viewpoint. Without that first note of stability, it's really difficult to sort anything out.) I say all this because, while I'm wrestling with requests, PotG, CoP, and PM, I'm likely going to ask a lot of questions about characterization or relationships and I figured I owed a preemptive explanation and apology.
Why not?
A: She is a perversion of nature (but I hope she at least realizes that half orcs get much hatred as well)
B: She (Its still a he for me:smallbiggrin:) made pacts with 3 powerfull Fiends only about a month before.
C: Along with the pact she commited a horrible sin (Killing all the dragons).
Just a thought. I still have no sympathy for Redcloak though. I just amagin Redcloak land, "Get killed if im in a bad mood" Or "Yay I just made the earth even MORE corrupt than it was before"
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Zanaril, the colouring on that V/Tsukiko picture is freaking amazing. I love the hair. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oooohaloophole
How many times must I say this you CANNOT simply put on a hat later and say "Oooh I was wrong". THERE ARE STILL 400-500 dead hobbs because of him. Just saying Im GOOD doesnt fix anything
I also want to know thew levels of the PCs at that time, because a well worded Wish spell "I wish to teleport to the TOWN (Or something like that) in which V is located can simply solve the problem. So think of the DnD part of this because the webcomic is based off it.
And what are the Pcs levels at this piont in time. And are thet dead? How can they loose to a single Mystic therurge.
I, uh, thought you were implying that there was an inconsistency in Water-Smurf's writing, and I was explaining why there wasn't. :smallconfused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Water-Smurf
Really? But can't he heal?
Yes, but bards are officially considered arcane casters, that's just that. Don't look for logic there. Or, if you look for logic, suppose that healing isn't what defines divine magic - rather, it's the power coming from the god and not the caster. Why bards can heal under their own power while other arcane casters all can't is something I have no idea about.
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Okay, thanks. I'll cut back. I was wondering if I was getting a little gratuitous with the description. :smallsmile: (Maybe I should start using 'she' and 'her' more often. After all, with Reddy's and the unborn baby's influence, V's going to start identifying with her body/femininity a little more...)
Huh. Apparently I was imagining the you-gone-missing thing. Hi, Kaytara! :D
Hi. :D No, not at all - I DID pretty much go missing from the pairings thread. Been a bit busy.
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Anyway, I'm sure you guys have noticed by now that I ask lots of questions (like 'how would X react in Y situation?' or 'what is your impression of Z?'). I'm sorry if it's annoying...
Don't apologise. We like being given a reason to live. Validation for the win! :D
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zanaril
...Elan/Nale could be fun. :smallamused: Thanks for the idea Fiddler.
You are SO welcome. :smallwink:
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Oh, and nice work on the picture, Zanaril.
One thing: The sclera, the white of the eye, why doesn't Evil V have them?
Oh, and shameless promotion time: New comic update.
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CoffeeIncluded
One thing: The sclera, the white of the eye, why doesn't Evil V have them?
Because Ultimate Arcane Power tends to do that to one's eyes. Scientific fact.
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CoffeeIncluded
Oh, and nice work on the picture, Zanaril.
One thing: The sclera, the white of the eye, why doesn't Evil V have them?
Thanks.
I always assumed when character's eyes were coloured, it meant the whole of their eyes went that colour. :smallconfused: Especially since V's apparently has pink eyes normally. I suppose another interpretation could be the pupil going coloured, but if you're having an evil makeover you may as well go as creepy as possible. :smalltongue:
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zanaril
I always assumed when character's eyes were coloured, it meant the whole of their eyes went that colour.
Tsukiko too? :smalltongue:
Lovely picture. :smallsmile:
And more pregnancy. :smallwink:
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Discord
And more pregnancy. :smallwink:
When you're done, you need to make a group photo of all the mothers + V. The mothers are pissed, V is fearful for his life. :smalltongue:
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Discord
Tsukiko too? :smalltongue:
Lovely picture. :smallsmile:
And more pregnancy. :smallwink:
Spoiler
Show
Even MORE pregnancy! :smalleek:
Just...How...Many...:eek:
Hoo boy, Elan is not gonna be pleased about this.
Elan and Kyrie team up?
ELAN/KYRIE CRACK PAIRING!
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Re: Crack Pairings V - We Revel in Infamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CoffeeIncluded
Oh, and Water-Smurf? I have ADHD too.
How bad is it? The kind where you're fine if you're on meds (or even not on them) or the kind where you can't function?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zanaril
I've finished colouring the V/Tsukiko picture. :smallbiggrin: I had way too much fun with this.
Nice. :smallbiggrin: Fanservicey. I wish I could say more, but I know jack about pictures...
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They can't figure out what's wrong with me. :smallfrown:
You don't have to have anything wrong with you...
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It's not something I'm good at, and bouncing ideas around is probably good practice...
Yay for bouncing ideas!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Dark Fiddler
Yes, they can, but they're arcane. As far as I know, they're the only arcane class that gets healing spells without wands or scrolls or anything.
...These rules make no sense! Ah well. I'll fix that up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oooohaloophole
Why not?
A: She is a perversion of nature (but I hope she at least realizes that half orcs get much hatred as well)
B: She (Its still a he for me:smallbiggrin:) made pacts with 3 powerfull Fiends only about a month before.
C: Along with the pact she commited a horrible sin (Killing all the dragons).
A: I think it's a little harsh to call her a 'perversion of nature'...
B: True. Tieflings are made because their parents made deals with fiends, right?
C: I don't think that that turns the child into a fiend, but okay...
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Just a thought. I still have no sympathy for Redcloak though. I just amagin Redcloak land, "Get killed if im in a bad mood" Or "Yay I just made the earth even MORE corrupt than it was before"
Eh, I think that that's a little bit of a one-dimensional and black-and-white way to look at it. Redcloak's evil because of the things circumstances forced onto him, and I don't think that in his heart of hearts he's a bad guy, just misguided. Horribly, horribly misguided.
Anyway, my brother's telling me to get off the Internet so I'll make this quick.
For the PotG story, the pairing is Mijung/Yutrin (at least meant to be them). What's your impressions of both of them and what would make them attracted to each other? I think that Yutrin's a nervous and cautious guy, so that'd probably be a neat contrast from Soon, but I can't really get any ideas out past that without someone else's input.