Undoubtedly the paladin 2/sorcerer X comes online the fastest.
It doesn't matter which "build" you're going for. Pal2/Sorc1 with a SCAG cantrip is a working model for any of the builds. Pal2/Sorc3 gets you your metamagic. Even if you plan on going Pal7, tossing Sorc1-3 in before continuing Pal is the fastest way to get it into a usable format. Some people advocate going Pal 6-7 first, to get Extra Attack and your save bonus and your Aura(s), but the fastest way to get into the Sorcadin playstyle is Pal2/Sorc1-3 (and then continue as you see fit).
Aura of Protection is so good...I don't know how I could justify not getting it.
It's easy.
Either you want to focus more on melee, and go to Pal 6-7 to get your Auras, or you want to focus on casting (but have a decent melee option with more slots to smite from) and stop at Pal2.
You're giving up 4 or 5 more levels of Sorc to get Extra Attack, which is arguably redundant with SCAG cantrips) and an Aura (or 2).
If you want to focus more on potential tanking, Pal6-7 is the way to go.
If you want to focus more on being a caster with a solid melee option, Pal2 is your exit.
Either way, Pal2/Sorc1or3 is the fastest way to get the build "on-line,", and that was your question.
It's easy. Stop looking at what your 20 level build will look like. You're probably not getting there anyway.
Let's say your campaign only goes until 6th level. You won't cast a single sorcerer spell, but the sorcerer will have been tossing fireballs for a level already.
This question does not have a single and easy answer.
But most people asking this are reffering to spellcasting, so in most cases the correct answer is paladin2/sorcererX (perhaps throwing a 3rd paladin level somewhere along the way, if you value the CD enough).
But you really need to define what you are aiming for your build to do, in order to get a most specific answer (ie the ''correct'' answer from an optimization standpoint).
For example, if your plan is to use dreadful aspect in conjuction with web, then you are looking to build for paladin3/sorcerer3 asap. Or if you want to be a GWM, then you need to aim for extra attack asap (through paladin 5, or through favored soul if you are using s first version perhaps). And if you are willing to be a tank, then maybe your best bet is to go with something like paladin4->pal4/sorc3 asap.
The point is, that it really depends on what you aim for your build to accomplish and on some choices you made during character building (which choices may affect how your build can accomplish your desired function).
This is generally a sweet spot, with the notable exception of S&B str-based builds that want to go with at least 6 levels in paladin, in which case taking 4 paladin levels before multiclassing in sorc is better IMO (pal 4-> pal4/sorc3 -> pal6/sorc5, either prioritizing aura of protection or 3rd level sorc spells).
So, I haven't played one of these guys past level 5 yet (pal2/sorc3). I am looking at being more of a spellcaster (pal2/sorcX) than the usual (pal6/sorcX) idea.
Next level, I get my first ASI. I'm looking at warcaster (and dropping the great sword in favor of sword and board), and I'm looking at all future ASI being in improving my stats.
What's more important to improve, strength or charisma? Smiting is awesome with this build, so that means strength (smites mean nothing if you don't hit), but I also have a great spell caster here, which means charisma is more important.
What say you?
Str first, charisma second. You build as a paladin and use bless, blur, heals and shield early on that don't scale with casting stats. Charisma will only help you cast better firebolts.
I say... that you would probably profit from grabbing one more feat after warcaster (ideally when you created that character at level 1, by selecting vhuman). And that extra feat would either be mobile or resilient con. First one lets you assume a good skirmishing approach (twinning BB's and running away), while the second one (ie resilient con) will help you hold on your concentration if you decided to go with a frontlining approach. If you play like a caster, then you dont really need either of these feats (in which case just keep upping charisma and keep the smite thingy when you are conrnered, or when umping in the fray to save the day!). But if you dont want to play like a caster (mostly), then one of these feats (mobile or resilient con) would really help you.
As for the str vs cha dilemma, mmmm, I wanna say charisma (since you will end up with up to 9th level spells), but it really depends on your spell selection, which again will depend on your metamagic and role you chose to cover. Instictively I would probably say that str is more important earlier but charisma ends up being better in the late game, but I am not sure if this holds true for this particular build.
I really want to build this now
Hey guys, just looking for some opinions on my sorcadin. We are starting at 14 (since this is a continuation of an old pathfinder campaign) and brought our old stats over. I'm going with Scourge Aasimar and currently sitting at 18/17/18/14/14/20 after adding everything up (racial increases, tomes, diplomat feat, etc..). So far I've been thinking of going either Pal 6/ Sor 8 (Crown/Dragon) or Pal 7/ Sor 7 (Ancients/Dragon). The party I'm with consists of a barbarian 14 (bear totem) , a fighter 14 (knight), a wizard 14 (loremaster), a monk 14 (open palm), and a Pally 5/Rogue 9 (Vengeance/Swash). My dm is allowing use of all UA, including doubling up fire damage with undying light (which seems tempting).
So here are my questions:
1) Are wings worth it if I know I'll be at lvl 20 eventually?
2) If not, is it a better option to go with a mix of warlock? Maybe Oath 9 (for spirit guardians, aura of vitality)/Undying Light 1 or 2/Dragon 9 or 10?
3) Is Favored soul (newest version) worth taking a look at? We don't have a dedicated healer at all with our party, but I'm not sure if we need one.
I should also mention with all of these options that I will be going sword and board. Thanks!
Ok, you put a lot of things into perspective here.
Before getting to my opinion below, just keep in mind that optimizing your character to fit best a given group can take a totally different path than if you were just optimizing you character in general. And optimizing to fit best your group is obviously more important than theoritical optimization of a single character. So, with that said, here is what I would do:
You have a heavy-melee party. You have two other tanks in the barbarian and in the fighter, and you've got two skirmishers in the paly/rogue and in the monk (and ofc you have the wizard too, who will be relatively safe behind so many melee characters). For this reason, I think going crown with your paladin oath is not necessary, as its channel divinity (champion's challenge), which is the main reason for a sorcadin to go with that particular oath, loses a lot of value due to the group's composition (champion challenge works best if you re the sole tank in a group of squishies/ranged chars, and is kinda poitless when you are in a party where almost everyone fights in melee, especially if there are more than one other dedicated frontliners). So, avoid oath of the crown.
Ancients can be good, with aura of warding, especially if your DM throws a you a lot of magic users (take note, it only affects damage from spells), but with your current group, I think there will be a good amount of overlap if you select this oath, and that there is actually a better choice for you in that front (ie which oath to choose). You see, the worst thing for a melee heavy party, is to fight against an enemy that can inflict the frigtened condition (such as a dragon). With a party heavily geared towards melee, there is a serious threat that the party will shutdown, or at least seriously underperform, if fear effects stick against you. Moreover, the charmed condition and other conditions that target wisdom saves are more frightening than pure damage, which iss what an effect that targets dex will do most of the time. And given your party composition (totem barb, fighter, monk, rogue/paly), wisdom saves seems less protected than dexterity ones as far as your allies are concerned (barb gets advantage on dex saves and resistance to every damage type except psychic, paly/rogue gets evasion, monk gets dex save prof and has dex as their main stat). So, I would say that the best pick for your paladin oath is devotion (for charm immunity) and also, going up to at least paladin 10 for aura of courage too.
Another reason for investing that far in paladin, is to get aura of vitality. With no other source of healing available, and with that many allies, this spell will shine in between combats. And you will also get access to revivify, who no one at your party has, so that's very imporant too.
You do the above at the expense of more sorcerer levels to play with, but with such a melee heavy party, I think that one of the best spells you can get as a sorcerer is in the very low levels. And exploiting it with metamagic to your party's incredible advantage, will be actually very cheap in sorcery points. I am talking about web and careful. Cast this at round 1 with careful (1 sp), and now all you melee allies (the barbarian, the fighter, the paly/rogue, and the monk) have advantage on their attacks and the enemies have disadvantage in theirs. Moreover, the enemies have disadvantage on their dex saves, which will play well with your wizard's blasting potential (just make sure he is not casting fire AoE's on the webbed enemies, as this will just burn down your web). And 3 sorcerer levels is just enough for this (so you could start as a devotion 11/ sorc 3 or devotion 10/ sorc4, and still be able to do it). Sure, there are some good spells at higher levels, but keep in mind that the best spells compete for your use of concentration, which web can cover so damn well, given your party composition and focus on melee combat (all while 10 levels of paladin cover very well your party's weak points).
Spoiler: Lesser optimizationAfter that, you can do whatever you want without worrying so much about which option is best, as long as you stick with paladin (devotion) 10/ sorcerer (any) 3 for the backbone of your build (for the reaasons mentioned above). Draconic sorcerer can have some nice synergy with elemental weapon (for boss battles when you will need the extra accuracy and damage, as well as when using extra attack will be better than using GFB because you will want to smite more -obviously for boss battles you wont be using web), and the few extra hp wont hurt. Favored soul can provide you with access to some very nice concentration-free bufss (such as death ward and freedom of movement), as well as to some healing magic that you will be able to use in combat if things turn sour. Shadow will help trmendously with your survivability if you have somehow snatched resilient con (though if going S&B, I would say there is not enough room for resilient con to make it to the list, as you will need warcaster). Grabbing one or two levels in warlock can also profit you (though less so than if you were going with a heavy-sorcerer build, as the best part of warlock levels is to provide you with armor of agathys and use it with high level spell slots; though extra castings for shield that recharge on short rests arent bad at all). If it were me, I would probably go with FS (to get at least one good combat-healing spell that uses a bonus action, and possibly for spiritual weapon too, since I wont have many sorc points to quicken spells/cantrips as often as a dip lighter on the paladin would), but that is just a personal preference. You can do whatever you want and be at about the same ''power level'' as with any other choice you could have made after securing the base of the build (devotion10/sorc3 -quicken, careful, web for some of the sorc's choices).
TL;DR
So, my advice is: Paladin (devotion) 10/ sorcerer (any) 3 (plus one more level to use as you see fit).
Key features:
1) Aura of devotion (charm immunity)
2) Aura of courage (fear immunity)
3) Aura of vitality (the spell :smallsmile:)
4) Revivify
5) Careful (metamagic)
6) Web
7) Hypnotic pattern (when you hit sorcerer 5); aura of devotion means that you can cast it without having to use the careful metamagic with it (at least most of the time that will be the case)
*Not mentioning obvious stuff (like quicken and warcaster if S&B), or stuff that you will grab along the way and that are useful (like aura of protection), as I focused more on stuff you should choose that aren't so obvous perhaps.
Hope that helps.
Hey y'all,
I'm new to multiclassing and I've read through this guide many times today trying to figure out how to begin my Sorcadin. If I could get some advice, that would be great.
I am thinking of going with the variant human with the following stat rolls: 18 - 17 - 16 - 14 - 13 - 11, looking to be a STR based build. I do not know much about the rest of the groups classes so I am taking upon myself to be more versatile. We are starting at level 10. I like the idea of the Paladin 6/ Sorc 14. Since I am able to gain all of my levels at once, should I go straight for Paladin 6: Get my ASI/Feat, abilities, class features and such, then go Sorc 4 and figure out that? Or multiclass from level 1 up as if I were leveling like normal. I am looking to optimize ( min/max ) this build.
+1 to AC is important, but survivability is not just a matter of AC. Dex saves tend to be more important than str saves in respect to survivability (but also in general), and then it is the ever important initiative. Having a better chance to ''go'' before your enemies is massively important (especially in 5e, as the fights dont tend to be as long as they were in 4e), and it matters a lot in regard to your survivability. Stealth can sometines affect survivability too, though stealth is more about adding versatility to your ''role''.
If it wasn't for the STR requirement (STR 13 in order to mc in/out of paly), I would say that there wouldn't be enough of a reason for sorcadins to be str-based over being dex-based (at least as far as S&B builds are concerned). And even with the STR requirement in place, some people still see enough reason to favor a dex approach to a str one.
The general consensus seems to be however (and for good reason imo), that if you have some very good rolls, then it is definitely worth it to go with DEX, assuming S&B'ing. So initiative alone would be enough for me to go dex based, given your excelent stat rolls. Having better dexx saves is just an important side benefit.
ps: You can find some discussion on this (going STR or DEX) some pages back, as well as in the op, in the section where the DEX approach is being analyzed. But you can also start a new thread and talk about it there too, if you dont get enough answers about it in this thread.
Edit: Perhaps the biggest drawback if going dex-based, is that you will probably have to prioritize dexterity over charisma (something you wouldnt probably do if you were going str-based, meaning to prioritize str over charisma), so that will hurt a bit your spellcasting that relies on DC, and possibly your channel divinities and aura of protection). Still, I think the advantages of a dex build (assuming good rolls) outweight this particular drawback, but then again I am very biased towards stealth builds...
Edit2: To further expand on my previous point, if you dont really care about stealth, you can stick with a halplate and prioritize charisma over dex if you really want to, just like a str build would. In that case, you are trading +1 AC and +3/4 STR to str saves, for +3/4 to initiative and to DEX saves too. If you were only a tank and nothing else, I would say go with the STR approach for the extra AC, as initiative is less important for tanks. But you have good blasting and crowd control potential too. Dropping a fireball or some other non-friendly AoE, or even a debuff like web or hypnotic pattern when the enemies haven't played yet and they are stack together, can really help you play to the strengths of your build.
Great information, thanks for the write up. I didn't consider DEX to have such an impact in all the other areas. Based on my rolls, it doesn't look like I would have to worry about sacrificing my CHA for my DEX, especially if I choose a race that gives me a DEX or CHA bonus, such as a Half Elf, even if I'm not focusing in stealth. With the ASIs, I can easily get up 20 on the important stats, and the feat War Caster.
I like the half plate idea. I'm not too concerned about stealth personally, and I know one player will more than likely play a rogue. So with a 18 DEX and wearing Half plate I can get 17 AC, plus a shield for a +2, to give me a 19 AC, while using a Rapier. I will still have the initiative bonus.
For optimizing the stats. I only need War Caster for a feat which would leave me with one ASI to boost a stat. The following stats: 18 CHA, 17 DEX, 16 CON, 14 WIS, 13 STR, 11 INT, modified with the Half Elf: 20 CHA, 18 DEX, 16 CON, 14 WIS, 13 STR, 11 INT. Then I can take my first 6 levels of Paladin and use the ASI to get a 18 CON for a total of: 20 CHA, 18 DEX, 18 CON, 14 WIS, 13 STR, 11 INT. I can take the War caster feat on the 4th level of Sorc. Does this look good?
Just keep in mind that the halfelf gives you an additional +1 to stats (halfelf gives +2/ +1/ +1), so with halfelf, your starting stats would be STR 13, DEX 18, CON 17, INT 11, WIS 14, CHA 20. You can even out the odd con score by taking resilient con (instead of the +2 con you mentioned).
You are right. I missed the second +1. Thanks.
Would this build for Paladin2/Sorc8? Would I still wear armor or would I focus on Draconic Archtype and go with no armor.
Spoiler: Spoilered due to lengthYeah, you can do it. Your stats have set you up ideally for it. Besides warcaster, resilient con immediately becomes mandatory, but that's ok, as resilient con suits your stats and race selection.
Losing aura of protection means that both your saves and your concentration checks get weakened. Picking both warcaster (which is either way mandatory since you are S&B'ing) and resilient con, immediately starts making a lot of sense (since you want to boost the all important con saves, and since boosting your concentration even further wouldn't hurt, since you miss out on aura of protection).
In fact, boosting your concentration checks becomes even more important, as one of the benefits of going with a small paladin dip is having more sorcery points, and that means that you can use the twinned metamagic more reliably and from an earlier level, than sorcadins with more levels in paladin. Of course, the benefit of twinning buffs (debuffs are rarely worth being twinned, always upcast them instead, if you can), depends a lot on your other party members, but between haste, greater invisibility and polymorph, you will probably find which one best buffs and complements your allies' capabilities.
So.... if going with a small paladin dip, and given your rolled stats, definitely start with both warcaster and resilient con on your build. Pick twinned as your second metamagic, and include at least two of haste, greater invisibility and polymorph (whichever two you think you'll make the best use of, once you learn what your friends will be playing), if not all 3 of them (though that might be hyperbolic).
tip: avoid casting polymorph on yourself, as this is the easiest way for you to lose concentration on it (you'll be rolling concentration with the beast's save, and their armor is not typically good, so expect many hits and to lose concentration rapidly if you do that; so dont).
Moreover, you might not be buffing your allies' saves since you lost aura of protection, but you'll be buffing them up with spells. The downside for this, is that you have to commit your concentration in doing so, and that takes way the potential to inflict battlefield control efficiently (since the best spells that allow you to do so require concentration too). Even if at your 10th sorcerer level you pick up careful and you also include some concentration crowd control spells in your build (like web and hypnotic pattern, and later on reverse gravity), you will be giving up buffing for when you'll want to exert crowd control. A good way to get around that (if crowd control seems like important for you to have; it generally is, and very much at that, though if you have a dedicated ''controler'' you could perhaps make a pass on it), is to get a 3rd level in paladin in either crown or oathbreaker (crown is not typically good for sorcadins with few paladin levels, but you have no problem as you have exceptional stats). The channel divinities (dreadful aspect, champion's challenge) of both these oaths offer a good amount of battlefield control, and what's more important, without taking up on your precious concentration. Just something to keep in mind, when you learn what everyone else is playing...
Another downside is that you lose on extra attack, and although this can be mitigated by simply having GFB, it can really backfire when you are fighting a boss against which you'll want to go nova (and more attacks means more smites, so better nova). Granted, this is something that has to do only/mostly when you are up against bosses. To go around that, you could use the first version of the favored soul origin. If that's not allowed, you will simply have to quicken GFB (or BB) for such cases when you will need to nova. Personally I dont like that last plan very much, as it burns on sorcery points very quickly, but if you cant get extra attack from somewhere, it is the best alternative you've got. In which case, why not make the best of it? Take draconic origin for improved GFB's (which you will spam under such instances -ie boss fights). If you go with draconic, there is little benefit in taking the defense fs (unless of course you have a reasonable expecation of grabbing a magic armor at some point, so in that case do take the defense fighting style), so you can take dueling (wont work great since you will mostly attack only once per turn, with GFB, but it will perform better against bosses when you will typically quicken one more attack.
You'll also not rock the hold person/monster + smite combo (that is if you do not nab extra attack from somewhere), but this combo is more impressive than practical (though under certain cases it can really pay off -remember, always try to upcast save or suck spells that add extra targets when upcasted).
Rounding out your spell list with at least two AoE's, of different damage type and area of effect if possible (fireball and cone of cold seem the ideal choices to start with, later on you can add chain lightning, but to be sure about your choices being optimal you need to have a full picture of your spell list and see how your spells typically end up using your slots (though at this point this is nigh impossible to say).
The last thing you need to decide, is what metamagic you will be going for when you hit sorcerer 10. That will help you fill the missing slots on your list of known spells at this level (starting level), and will affect your choices until sorcerer 10 and beyond that (obviously).
Rounding up your spell list with at least one good debuff (more if you plan on taking hightened as your 3rd metamagic -I am not a fan of it), something like a hold spell or banishment.
tip: keep in mind, that polymorph has an offensive use, as it can be used to debuff an enemy. Not the ideal way to use this spell, but keep that in mind (especially if you end up going with heigten as your 3rd metamagic when you'll hit sorcerer 10). Personally I prefer careful (and spells like web, hypnotic pattern and reverse gravity, but with the emphasis placed on buffing, I am not sure if that's the best way to go about your 3rd metamagic; do not discount empower and subtle either, they might seem weaker, but they are good secondary choices if you will be focusing on twinning spells).
Finally, make sure you dont pick too many concentration spells, as you can only have one up at a time. For example, dont pick blur since you are starting a this high level, since the concentration requirement really kills it (though it would have been a good choice for previous levels perhaps, being replaced eventually).
ps: Now that I remembered it, mirror image suits well this build, with its many sorcery points and with its good dex score. Make sure to include it.
Of course, many of my suggestions could be rendered moot once you have the full picture for your party mates, but knowing nothing about it now, this is the best suggestions I can think of.
ps: Did I mention that you have amazing stats?! :smalltongue:
First, thank you for that write up. That is a lot of information I had no knowledge about.
I had just gotten my party's dynamic: Light Cleric, ? Monk, Arcane Trickster Rogue. I think I'll fit in alright as a 2/8 build and go sorc levels from there. If you have any other suggestions, after know what the party will consist of, I am all ears. You're amazing for explaining all of this and it has helped me understand the Sorcadin better, I greatly appreciate it.