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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
If you've ever read anything I've ever written about the player-base in my area, you'd know that if a model was worth having, they'd have it.
.... That seems a little odd or self important. If you were to say "your area has players who have large collections which include all models and yet you never see it played," that would be reasonable. However to assume your area is full of the best gamers who are 100% of the time correct about model choices. Or that a model can be as good as another but becuase it is newer less people play it ,due to older models already being owned. reasonable but that your area is infallible is ridiculous.
I have seen it in use. Did not pay attention to the game as I was not in it and had my own to play. But I would say try it out and see how it works as it has some nice effect.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crazedloon
If you were to say "your area has players who have large collections which include all models and yet you never see it played," that would be reasonable.
This would be part of it.
Quote:
Or that a model can be as good as another but because it is newer less people play it, due to older models already being owned.
This doesn't really have anything to do with it. People bought the new Fire Prism kit like people will always buy new things. People are running the new Fire Prism kits, but not the Night Spinner. So, they clearly have the opportunity to make a Night Spinner, but are choosing not to.
...Because the Night Spinner is 'not that good'.
Quote:
your area is infallible is ridiculous.
That's not what I said at all. I wish people would actually read what I write. And/or not Straw Man.
My area is hyper-competitive (even with Comp Scores in use). I know why my area doesn't use Night Spinners. Because AP- is crap. Pretty much on par with why people don't use the Leman Russ Punisher. Because counting things as Difficult and Dangerous Terrain is really only only effective if your opponent moves. Or isn't a vehicle that has a Dozer Blade or is a Skimmer than can pretty much ignore Difficult and Dangerous Terrain (why people don't use Tremor Shots of a TfC, or why 'not that many' people use Murderous Hurricane), because 72" range really isn't needed, because in 1500-2000 points you can afford pretty much anything else that will do the same job better, etc.
Never did I say, ever, that my area was infallible. I said that my area doesn't use it [Because they don't believe it's competitive].
Then I went on to ask what makes it so good or intergral in Tren's list. In fact, I was implying or suggesting that my area was missing something and that Tren might have a good idea that I've never seen before.
Please read what I write. Don't assume that I'm 'suggesting' or 'implying' something that I'm not when what I've said is clearly written. Pretty sure you guys know by now that if I'm thinking something, I'm going to say it. Shas'a pointed it out a long time ago as a negative quality.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
I don't understand why you must use the strawman reference every-time someone disagrees with you. I never said that you said that you area was Infallible. I assume putting words in your mouth is what you mean by strawman.
What I did was make the simple translation of what you typed. My reference to what you typed is the reason I quoted you so I shall do it again and explain it in pieces so that we do not have any strawmen in the room :smallconfused:
Quote:
If you've ever read anything I've ever written about the player-base in my area,
I presume this is intended to set a precedence of legitimacy of the claim or quality of players. However in all truth all I know about your local players is that you beat them a lot and they are anal retentive about models.
Quote:
you'd know that if a model was worth having, they'd have it.
The logical next step is that any model they do not have is not worth having. There is no room ,in what you said, for there to be an error in your locals judgment since you are using it as a basis for the claim that the night spinner is bad.
this is an extreme I will admit but if you are of the opinion that the locals might be wrong, than do not use them as an example or reason not to take the nightspinner. Indeed your quote in context is not needed and proves nothing.
Perhaps what should have been said is that you have never seen one played, since no one has used one in your area, and therefor have no idea how it would play on the table.
edit: also it is really hard to reply to things when you edit nearly at the rate that people post.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
Ok, here goes!
I'm kinda new to 40K, (that is to say that I haven't played much and am not good with the rules) and I just wrote up this Imperial Guard Army list that I am thinking of entering in a 1500 point tournament. This is both the first tournament that I have been (or will be) in and the first proper list that I have written up.
If you be so kind as to look over the list and make sure that it is legal (as I may have missed something) and then give me any advice that you can think of as to how to improve it etc.
I did use the guides at the start of the tread (it needs a Guard one =P) and so I hope that the list is ok.
The List
Spoiler
Show
Imperial Guard Army List
HQ
Company Command Squad -150
Company Commander, 4 x Verterans, Master of Ordanance, Officer of the Fleet
Regimental Standard, Vox-Caster, Carapace Armour
Elites
StormTroopers -117
Sergent, 6 x StormTroopers
Troops
Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad -40
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, 2 x Sniper Rifles
Infantry Squad -85
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen, Commisar
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster
Commisar has Boltpistol, Powerfist and Carapace armour
Infantry Squad -75
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Lasconnon (heavy Weapons team)
Vox-Caster
Heavy Weapons Squad -60
3 x Mortar
Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad -35
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster
Infantry Squad -60
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster
Infantry Squad -55
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster
Heavy Weapons Squad -65
3 x Autocannons
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinel Squadron -105
3 x Sentinels
Heavy Support
Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -195
Lasconnon, Dozer Blade, Extra armour, heavy bolter sponsons
Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -195
Lasconnon, Dozer Blade, Extra armour, heavy bolter sponsons
Leman Russ Executioner -260
Lasconnon, Extra armour, Plasma cannon sponsons
Total - 1497 points
If I have made any glaring mistakes then please tell me.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
I'd love to critique your list, Zoot, but my level of expertise with imperial guard is infinitesimal. So I will, because I like to hear myself talk type but the advice I give isn't to be relied on in this case.
Glancing over it, I don't see anything that looks illegal.
I will say your list looks...odd. Your units are asymmetrical (i.e. different squad sizes and varied upgrades with no logic my layman eyes can detect), which is not necessarily bad, but...it's ugly.
Ummm....I don't know how many guardsmen you can manage to throw out on the battlefield, but you have about 40 in this list. Those are gonna get torn apart almost instantly. T3, almost always no save...well, get 'em in cover as much as possible. Would it be possible (again, I do not know the codex.) to put the squads in chimeras? That would be a massive increase in survivability and mobility for the squads, and multilasers are decent weapons to boot. (Granted, chimeras ARE additional killpoints, but I try not to worry about such things :D)
Don't worry, I'm sure somebody who knows what they're talking about will speak up and tell me I'm wrong on multiple counts. That's just what happens.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_Zoot_
HQ
Company Command Squad -150
Company Commander, 4 x Verterans, Master of Ordanance, Officer of the Fleet
Regimental Standard, Vox-Caster, Carapace Armour
'Kay. I'd replace the Regimental Standard with a mortar/Missile launcher and a sniper rifle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_Zoot_
Elites
StormTroopers -117
Sergent, 6 x StormTroopers
A Stormtrooper unit like this is essentially worthless rubbish. Stormtroopers are not as good as they seem. AP3 is great, but only worth 3 times its weight in AP5. And you can get 3x as much AP5 for cheaper than this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_Zoot_
Troops
Platoon Command Squad -40
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, 2 x Sniper Rifles
'Kay. Make it 3x Sniper Rifles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_Zoot_
Infantry Squad -85
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen, Commisar
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster
Commisar has Boltpistol, Powerfist and Carapace armour
Commissars with Power Fists are rubbish. Give the squad a Lascannon or something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_Zoot_
Infantry Squad -75
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen, Lascannon (heavy Weapons team)
Vox-Caster
Give the squad a Grenade launcher. Just cuz it has a Lascannon doesn't mean it won't end up shooting at other stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_Zoot_
Heavy Weapons Squad -60
3 x Mortar
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_Zoot_
Platoon Command Squad -35
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster
Give it some Sniper Rifles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_Zoot_
Infantry Squad -60
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster
Needs a heavy weapon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_Zoot_
Infantry Squad -55
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster
Needs Grenade Launcher and heavy weapon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_Zoot_
Heavy Weapons Squad -65
3 x Autocannons
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_Zoot_
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinel Squadron -105
3 x Sentinels
Multilaser Sentinels will disappoint you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_Zoot_
Heavy Support
Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -195
Lascannon, Dozer Blade, Extra armour, heavy bolter sponsons
Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -195
Lasconnon, Dozer Blade, Extra armour, heavy bolter sponsons
Drop the Dozer Blade and Extra armour, exchange for Plasma sponsons or drop the sponsons entirely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_Zoot_
Leman Russ Executioner -260
Lasconnon, Extra armour, Plasma cannon sponsons
Looks good on paper, but look how much you're paying for it. Exchange for another MBT or some lascannon heavy weapon squads.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
To add a bit of context to what Zoot posted, the tournament is not a competitive one, but a local one organised just for the fun of it. Which is only exacerbated by 4/6 games (IIRC) using non-standard formats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
I know why my area doesn't use Night Spinners. Because AP- is crap. Pretty much on par with why people don't use the Leman Russ Punisher.
Now this part just makes me curious. You so often speak out against AP - as nullifying the weapon, so why do you recommend giving shotguns to Scouts?
I've been wondering the benefits of shottie-scouts for a while, so I'm curious to hear what you say :smallsmile:
(Also, why the hell do my Scout Bikers have shotguns? They have twin-linked, relentless bolters. They gain NOTHING from Assault 2 Str 4 Ap - weapons ... I think.)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Because AP- is crap. Pretty much on par with why people don't use the Leman Russ Punisher. Because counting things as Difficult and Dangerous Terrain is really only only effective if your opponent moves. Or isn't a vehicle that has a Dozer Blade or is a Skimmer than can pretty much ignore Difficult and Dangerous Terrain (why people don't use Tremor Shots of a TfC, or why 'not that many' people use Murderous Hurricane), because 72" range really isn't needed, because in 1500-2000 points you can afford pretty much anything else that will do the same job better, etc.
Not having so much as read the Night Spinner rules I'm not going into the rest of your post, but:
A: The Leman Russ Punisher sucks because Heavy 20 doesn't mean squat when you're still only BS3 and S5, while Blast templates still work perfectly at low BS and all have great S. Trust me, making it AP4 wouldn't make it worth taking (AP3 would, but that's a whole other ball game). There's a reason that the only tanks people take are Russes, Demolishers and to a lesser extent Eradicators unless Passk comes into play.
B: Difficult/Dangerous terrain is important to a varying degree based on your opponent. Shooty armies? They'll shrug it off, stand still and keep blasting. Orks, Tyranids or any other non-mech assault army? They get slowed down and lose 18% of your squad or lose a turn? Ouch. Doesn't hurt that AP- doesn't change much against either of those armies. Oh, and regarding skimmers, unless it's a Tau vehicle with Sensor Spines (an expensive and uncommonly used upgrade) it's still effected by DT if it starts or ends in terrain, so the Night Spinner would still affect it.
C: 72" range can be handy, though you're right in that it's basically irrelevant for a Fast Skimmer. Less mobile units can have difficulties even with a 48" range, god knows it's happened to my Lascannons and Autocannons before, though the extra 12" from movement puts you back in the "everything's in range" catagory. I'm certainly glad that my Broadsides are packing the full 72" range; I'd have a lot less choice when deploying them otherwise. Still, 60" is usually all you need.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_Zoot_
Ok, here goes!
The List
Spoiler
Show
Imperial Guard Army List
HQ
Company Command Squad -150
Company Commander, 4 x Verterans, Master of Ordanance, Officer of the Fleet
Regimental Standard, Vox-Caster, Carapace Armour
Elites
StormTroopers -117
Sergent, 6 x StormTroopers
Troops
Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad -40
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, 2 x Sniper Rifles
Infantry Squad -85
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen, Commisar
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster
Commisar has Boltpistol, Powerfist and Carapace armour
Infantry Squad -75
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Lasconnon (heavy Weapons team)
Vox-Caster
Heavy Weapons Squad -60
3 x Mortar
Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad -35
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster
Infantry Squad -60
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster
Infantry Squad -55
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster
Heavy Weapons Squad -65
3 x Autocannons
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinel Squadron -105
3 x Sentinels
Heavy Support
Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -195
Lasconnon, Dozer Blade, Extra armour, heavy bolter sponsons
Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -195
Lasconnon, Dozer Blade, Extra armour, heavy bolter sponsons
Leman Russ Executioner -260
Lasconnon, Extra armour, Plasma cannon sponsons
Total - 1497 points
If I have made any glaring mistakes then please tell me.
Spoiler
Show
Command Squad: You've gone a little bit overboard here. While it's pretty decent overall, I'd reccomend dropping either the MoO or the MotF. The MotF is probably worse unless your metagame involves a hell of a lot of Reserves lists and outflankers.
Stormtroopers: I hate the new Stormtroopers with a burning passion, and yours serve no real purpose. IMO, the only ways to use these guys are as suicidal Tank Hunters with a pair of Meltaguns, using their Deep Strike reroll or a full squad in a Chimera using the Scout choice. Either way, they're almost certainly inferior point-for-point to Veterans with the Grenadiers doctrine.
Platoon 1: Your PCS is fine.
Your first Infantry Squad is illegal; Commissars can only have Power Fists when attached to a Platoon Command Squad or taken as a Commissar Lord. It sucks, but that's how it is. Also, there's no point to taking Commissars unless you plan to make use of the Combined Squads special rule; an excellent idea, but it doesn't seem to be what you're going for here.
Your second squad is meh. I prefer my Lascannons without a bunch of useless Lasguns standing around, so that I can make full use of the Bring it Down! Order. You'll likely find more success giving midrange or anti-infantry weapons such as Autocannons or Heavy Bolters on your infantry squads and making use of the First Rank Fire etc. Order.
Mortar squads kick ass. Good to see one in there. :smallbiggrin:
Platoon 2:
No upgrades on the PCS? Blech. Either toss a Power Fist on the Commander and give everyone else Laspistols and Chainswords or give them a Meltagun/Flamer/Grenade Launcher/Whatever quartet. It's too cheap not to, and nude squads don't do much.
Squad 1's fine, especially if you merge it with squad 2. Cheap and powerful with liberal application of the FRFSRG Order.
Autocannon Teams are also good, though I prefer to put my ACs in my Infantry squads since they fit well there. Still, nothing wrong here.
Fast Attack:
I occasionally use this setup myself. Cheap and reasonably killy, as well as capable of tying up PF-less Marines or any sort of Guard or non-MC Tyranids for a long, long time in assault. For the giggles, you can also toss them at Ork mobs and watch them explode like little manned timebombs, taking out dozens of Orks at a time. Moral of the story is, Multilaser-equipped Scout Sentinels are extremely versatile and very useful. That said, maybe split them up into a group of two and a loner, possibly giving the loner a Lascannon to make up for your weak AT.
Tanks: And now we come to the meat of the list.
Russ 1: Dozer Blade and Extra Armour are a waste. You should never have a reason to move your Russ into area terrain, even if you plan to move at all with a Sponson-equipped Russ, and that's fully 25 points a tank. Use the 50 points you save on giving more AT guns to your infantry. Remember that Leman Russes are first and foremost an anti-infantry platform though they can be decent at destroying tanks. Only aim for vehicles if the infantry targets run out or you're totally desperate.
Executioner: Check the points. Now compare them to a Demolisher with nothing but a Hull Lascannon, Extra Armour and a Heavy stubber. Now check them again. Now realise that a Demolisher Cannon is overall at least as good as an Executioner's plasma turret. Finally, switch to the Demolisher and save yourself 60(!) points and have a tank that's much more versatile and not much worse, and suffers no penalty when moving 6". Much better, right?
Sorry if that sounds like a lot of negative, and your army will do fine as written (with the removal of the illegal Power Fist), but there's a lot of small tweaks necessary in any first-time list.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
Ok, I have revised the list (not sure if it's any better, I think it is however):
The List 2.0
Spoiler
Show
Imperial Guard Army List
HQ
Company Command Squad -150
Company Commander, 4 x Verterans, Master of Ordanance, Officer of the Fleet
Regimental Standard, Vox-Caster, Carapace Armour
Troops
Infantry Platoon 1
Platoon Command Squad -45
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, 2 x Sniper Rifles
Infantry Squad 1 -70
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Autocannon
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster
Infantry Squad 2 -85
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Autocannon
Vox-Caster, plasma gun
Infantry Squad 3 -60
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, Grenade Launcher
Heavy Weapons Squad -60
3 x Mortar
Infantry Platoon 2
Platoon Command Squad -45
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, 2 x Flamers
Infantry Squad 1 -70
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Autocannon
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster
Infantry Squad 2 -70
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Autocannon
Vox-Caster, Grenade launcher
Infantry Squad 3 -60
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, Grenade Launcher
Heavy Weapons Squad -75
3 x Lascannons
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinel Squadron -105
3 x Sentinels
Heavy Support
Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -170
Lasconnon, heavy bolter sponsons
Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -170
Lasconnon, heavy bolter sponsons
Leman Russ Executioner -245
Lasconnon, Plasma cannon sponsons
Total - 1480 points
I'm going to keep the executioner as I already own it (I bought most of the army off my brother, he had the tank) and I don't really want to spend even more money to buy a different tank.
If you have any comments then I would love to hear them! Also, suggestion for what to do with the last 20 points are welcome!
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
Don't see the problem with the Nightspinner. Against armies with low armour forces (Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, other Eldar) it's going to be reasonably effective. All other times, your opponent still can't ignore it because it's a fast, flying objective-contesting machine that can safely be hidden for most of the game without sacrificing much firepower.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
Hey Everyone :smallsmile:. I just managed to (hopefully) fix most of the issues with my unit list (tell me if i'm still screwing it up). I'm playing Tau in a 1500 point tournament, with a fairly small army currently, and several units i'd rather not field (they're marked inside). I intend to buy new models soon, to boost me up to 1500, so i'd love tips on what to get.
Spoiler
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HQ:
1 Shas’o (165)
Weapon Systems: burst cannon, plasma rifle, missile pod
Support Systems: Shield Generator, Target lock, multi tracker
Wargear: Iridium Armour
1 Crisis Suit Shas’vre (95)
Weapons Systems: burst cannon, plasma rifle, missile pod
Support Systems: Targeting array, Target lock, multi tracker
*NOTE: I’m new to Tau and almost certain I can’t take this much stuff, but I think I’ve missed it in the Codex, please correct me.*
Elites:
Stealth Suit Team: (142)
2 XV25 Stealth suit Shas’ui (60)
1 XV25 Stealth suit Shas’Vre (40)
1 Fusion blaster
Targeting Arrays, Markerlight
Troops:
All fire warriors are equipped with pulse rifles
Tau Fire Team with Devilfish (235)
12 Fire Warrior Shas’la (110)
1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (20)
Photon Grenades
Tau Fire Team: (140)
12 Fire Warrior Shas’la (110)
1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (20)
Photon Grenades
Kroot Carnivore Squad:
12 Kroot Carnivores (84)
*NOTE: I want to get rid of these asap. I’m aware that they’re completely useless and I intend to get another fire team instead.*
Fast Attack:
Drone Squadron:
8 gun drones (96)
NOTE: I’m not convinced that these are useful. I discovered recently that all the left over drones I had from sets could be turned into a squad, so I did.
Heavy Support:
Broadside:
1 Broadside Battlesuit Shas’vre (95)
Support system: Targeting array
Wargear: hard wired multi Tracker
Hammerhead Gunship:
1 Hammerhead Gunship (185)
Railgun, Burst cannons
Wargear: Disruption pod, targeting array, multi tracker, target lock
Total Point Cost:
1227 Points.
I’m aiming for a 1500 point army, and as you can see, I’m still short some forces. Other than dropping the kroot, I’d love some suggestions as to what I should do with the remaining points, or modify in the current list.
This is my current thought on an improved list coming in at 1499 points :smallbiggrin:
Spoiler
Show
HQ:
1 Shas’o (140)
Weapon Systems: burst cannon, plasma rifle, missile pod
Support Systems: multi tracker
Wargear: Iridium Armour
1 Crisis Suit Shas’vre (90)
Weapons Systems: burst cannon, plasma rifle, missile pod
Support Systems: Targeting array, multi tracker
Elites:
Stealth Suit Team: (142)
2 XV25 Stealth suit Shas’ui (60)
1 XV25 Stealth suit Shas’Vre (40)
1 Fusion blaster
Targeting Arrays, Markerlight
Stealth Suit Team: (142)
2 XV25 Stealth suit Shas’ui (60)
1 XV25 Stealth suit Shas’Vre (40)
1 Fusion blaster
Targeting Arrays, Markerlight
Troops:
All fire warriors are equipped with pulse rifles
Tau Fire Team with Devilfish (235)
12 Fire Warrior Shas’la (110)
1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (20)
Photon Grenades
Tau Fire Team with Devilfish (235)
12 Fire Warrior Shas’la (110)
1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (20)
Photon Grenades
Tau Fire Team with Devilfish (235)
12 Fire Warrior Shas’la (110)
1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (20)
Photon Grenades
Heavy Support:
Broadside:
1 Broadside Battlesuit Shas’vre (95)
Support system: Targeting array
Wargear: hard wired multi Tracker
Hammerhead Gunship:
1 Hammerhead Gunship (185)
Railgun, Burst cannons
Wargear: Disruption pod, targeting array, multi tracker, target lock
Total Point Cost:
1499 Points.
Cheers,
Elm11
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
All this is my opinion, but here goes...
I think maybe reducing the general and his bodyguard to only two weapons might be wise. Maybe dropping the burst cannon, things have gotten bad if you're actually close enough to the enemy to use it.
And speaking of suits... crisis teams! They are the heart and soul of a Tau army. They don't look like much, but with two full teams in your lineup, after having to endure 6 plasma rifle shots and 12 missile pod shots a turn without being able to shoot back will drive your opponent crazy.
I've found Stealth Suits have never worked for me. They're reasonably well protected against gunfire, but the problem is that to use their weapons, they usually end up being the only thing in range of the enemy army, so they get hammered either way. I'd take a crisis suit team any day.
I've found that the Codex actually describes effective Tau battle strategy pretty well. Stay mobile; hold no objectives until the last minute. Whittle down your opponent and then zip forward and lay down the pain once he's exposed. You outrange the majority of most static armies, so they'll be forced to move if they want to engage you. Getting that other Fire warrior squad another Devilfish can't hurt. However, if you want to have a stationary squad, fitting them with a markerlight and sticking a couple of seeker missiles to your vehicles could be fun.
Don't underestimate how annoying drone squadrons are. Try deep striking them. Getting them in the rear armour of vehicles and tanks and letting rip with that many S5 shots can get the occasional lucky hit. The look on your opponent's face if you take down a Leman Russ or something this way is worth it.
Above all, remember - playing Tau is about frustrating your opponent and denying him clear shots. They're probably the closest thing in 40K to a modern army.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Klose_the_Sith
Now this part just makes me curious. You so often speak out against AP - as nullifying the weapon, so why do you recommend giving shotguns to Scouts?
I've been wondering the benefits of shottie-scouts for a while, so I'm curious to hear what you say :smallsmile:
Right, stay with me.
I don't necessarily endorse Shotgun Scouts. Keep in mind that I take units of 5 Scouts, in a Land Speeder Storm. Remember that. It's important. Keep in mind that I also don't take a lot of them.
Units of 10 Scouts, take Rifles, as Rifles in that number are actually effective.
Bolters? Please. Use Tactical Squads if that's what you want.
So, Combat Blades vs. Shotguns is what you're asking me, I guess. Although, actually, you have Shotguns and Bolt Pistols, so...
So, a Scout with a Combat Blade shoots a Bolt Pistol in his shooting phase, then Assaults with 3 Attacks, but, to do so, he needs to get out of his Land Speeder Storm. Now, on WS3, a Close Combat attack can be made better or worse by your opponent's Weapon Skill. There aren't too many things with WS2, so, you're always hitting on 4s or 5s. And, close combat attacks may as well be AP-. And, Assault attacks are also based from Initiative. You wont always go first. You could lose attacks.
Shotguns, however. Two S4 shots, with AP-. You're looking at ten shots. Or, you can shoot 5 Pistol shots at AP5. Against anything with better than 5+ armour, you're better off with Shotguns - you get more shots. Against armour 5 or worse, you're only just better off shooting 5 Bolt Pistols. However, you have a Shotgun and Bolt Pistol, so you can do whatever you want. Tactical Flexibility, see? Which Combat Scouts don't have.
Cover saves? Well, again, Pistols and Shotguns have the same strength, neither of them negate Cover Saves, but Shotguns have more shots.
Shotguns are the exact same strength and AP of your Assault attacks, but have a 12" range, and you don't have to get out of your Storm to do it. If you want, you can Assault for 2 Attacks each.
So...
Combat Blades; Bolt Pistol shot, 3 attacks if Assaulting.
Shotguns; Bolt Pistol or Shotgun shots, depending on situation. 2 Attacks if Assaulting.
Ultimately, due to Shotguns being just as good as close combat attacks, you've got four 'attacks' either way. Except 2 of those attacks are done at Initiative one billion (being Shooting attacks, your opponent doesn't get to attack back either), and have range.
Shotgun Scouts aren't so good in sustained Assaults. But, units of 5, Assaulting out of a Land Speeder Storm (Cerebrus Launchers), aren't for Sustained Assaults. They're Shock Troopers.
So...They have two 'attacks' at range. Then can Assault - if they want - for, ultimately, the same effectiveness as Combat Scouts. Except that Shotgun Scouts don't have to get out of their Storm - drive-by - and don't need to Assault if they don't want to, and still do what they're for. But they can Assault. Again, Tactical Flexibility.
If Combat Scouts aren't Assaulting, they're not doing their job. They have one role. Units of 5 Combat Scouts, also don't do very well if their Transport gets Destroyed.
If something is over 6" away (after movement)...Well, what are Combat Scouts going to do? Once again, Shotgun Scouts also have Bolt Pistols...So can do exactly the same thing, or not, and use Shotguns, if their opponent has better than 5+ armour or a cover save.
You also kind of need to take into account that in the army that I take Shotgun Scouts in, I'm taking 20-30 Sternguard. I don't really need Sniper Rifles. I'm also taking 10-20 Grey Knights. I don't need Combat Scouts.
Sniper Rifles > Shotguns > Combat Blades > Bolters.
Bolters would actually be better than Combat Blades if it wasn't for the fact that Tactical Squads didn't already do the same thing, better, for not that many points extra. And that you can Drop Pod Bolters (Tactical Squads/Sternguard) into Rapid Fire range on the first turn anyway.
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Also, why the hell do my Scout Bikers have shotguns?
Because Matt Ward is a hack? Look at the fact that regular Space Marine Bikers also have Bolt Pistols...
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
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I assume putting words in your mouth is what you mean by strawman.
Strawman = setting argument only similar to what your opponent says then kicking it into the ground. I don't remember you doing this, though.
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However in all truth all I know about your local players is that you beat them a lot and they are anal retentive about models.
This. By the way, first official model for Relic Blade just showed up. I wonder, will they say all models armed with it are now illegal, as was suggested before? :smallamused:
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edit: also it is really hard to reply to things when you edit nearly at the rate that people post.
This. Sorry CG, can't you type your posts fully before you post them? You tend to edit them a few times, posting in pieces, which means no one will actually read it (as people rarely re-read old posts, especially when thread's moving fast). It's annoying, especially if you wrote something actually useful, and only by chance anyone ever sees it :smallfrown:
If there's something important you want to add, it's better to make new post, not double the old one.
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I will say your list looks...odd. Your units are asymmetrical (i.e. different squad sizes and varied upgrades with no logic my layman eyes can detect), which is not necessarily bad, but...it's ugly.
It's called realism :smalltongue:
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Kroot Carnivore Squad:
12 Kroot Carnivores (84)
*NOTE: I want to get rid of these asap. I’m aware that they’re completely useless and I intend to get another fire team instead.*
If you don't like Kroot, why not take Commander Farsight? You lose ability to field what you don't want, you gain some nice tricks :smallwink:
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
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Originally Posted by
Trixie
Strawman = setting argument only similar to what your opponent says then kicking it into the ground.
"A Straw Man Argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."
Such as "So you're saying...", "Are you implying...", and is often used by Reductio ad absurdum. Or, taking your defender's argument, and extending it to something ridiculous, but not always.
Basically, Straw Man is misrepresenting your opponent's arugment. Just as the above.
"If you don't like Night Spinners, then clearly you don't like Leman Russes..."
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This. By the way, first official model for Relic Blade just showed up. I wonder, will they say all models armed with it are now illegal, as was suggested before? :smallamused:
Which model? :smallconfused:
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This. Sorry CG, can't you type your posts fully before you post them? You tend to edit them a few times, posting in pieces, which means no one will actually read it (as people rarely re-read old posts, especially when thread's moving fast). It's annoying, especially if you wrote something actually useful, and only by chance anyone ever sees it :smallfrown:
I'm sorry that I remember something useful five minutes after posting. However, due to the forum's rules on double-posting, I have to wait until someone else posts. Which might be a while. Or not. In some cases.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
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Such as "So you're saying...", "Are you implying...", and is often used by
Reductio ad absurdum. Or, taking your defender's argument, and extending it to something ridiculous, but not always.
And this is different from what I said how? :smalltongue:
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I'm sorry that I remember something useful five minutes after posting. However, due to the forum's rules on double-posting, I have to wait until someone else posts. Which might be a while. Or not. In some cases.
No one minds five minutes, but I remember I saw posts edited when they were already deep in the thread.
On a side note, that post about shotguns was the old CG people like. I used to wonder who would take them, but now, with that vehicle, I can see most of the point. One nitpick, though - you compare 1+3 attacks vs 2+2. On paper, it looks good, but shouldn't it be 1+3 vs [2+2 or 2], as you can drive them out of your assault range with enough wounds? Of course, driving people back can be good, too.
By the way, these "5 minutes" technically can be described as 'strawman' as well :smalltongue:
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
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Originally Posted by
Elm11
Kroot Carnivore Squad:
12 Kroot Carnivores (84)
*NOTE: I want to get rid of these asap. I’m aware that they’re completely useless and I intend to get another fire team instead.*
This saddens me. Kroot are such a useful unit when used properly - a full squad standing in some trees become a cheap and very survivable firing line or can equally be used in very small units to speed bump off some of the bigger threats your army is likely to face. Add in some hounds and you're even getting some attacks in before many commonly used assualt troops.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
[QUOTE=Trixie;9246946I used to wonder who would take them, but now, with that vehicle I can see most of the point.[/QUOTE]
The Land Speeder Storm changes everything. :smallwink:
However, even with Combat Scouts, Shotguns are two Handed Weapons, you also don't lose anything at all by giving the Sergeant a Power Fist. It's why I also run;
Scouts (X)
Combat Blades
Sergeant; Power Fist and Shotgun
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One nitpick, though - you compare 1+3 attacks vs 2+2. On paper, it looks good, but shouldn't it be 1+3 vs [2+2 or 2], as you can drive them out of your assault range with enough wounds? Of course, driving people back can be good, too.
Sure, I guess. But that's not something you can really control. And you can drive them back with Bolt Pistol shots as well, so, null argument. Them's all the dice rolls. Them's the breaks you can get with any Assault unit. Especially when up against Combat Tacticsing Space Marines.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
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Originally Posted by
onasuma
This saddens me. Kroot are such a useful unit when used properly - a full squad standing in some trees become a cheap and very survivable firing line or can equally be used in very small units to speed bump off some of the bigger threats your army is likely to face. Add in some hounds and you're even getting some attacks in before many commonly used assualt troops.
That's fair enough, i suppose i worded that quite poorly. I should say, that rather than them being useless, i don't find a use for them in my playing style, which involves mobile firebases and diversionary tactics rather than static engagements or close combat. I'm also a poor player when it comes to kroot, so I'd rather not use them when there are firewarriors available instead.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
Now, you're taking not-editing too far. No one said anything about fixing obvious mistakes, eh? :smalltongue:
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Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Sure, I guess. But that's not something you can really control. And you can drive them back with Bolt Pistol shots as well, so, null argument. Them's all the dice rolls. Them's the breaks you can get with any Assault unit. Especially when up against Combat Tacticsing Space Marines.
If the enemy unit ran after receiving 5 pistol shots, it wasn't a threat to begin with. Even with abnormal rolls, making anything run is pretty improbable. Hell, giving more than one wound is.
10 shots, though, have a good chance even with enemies more numerous than the scouts, unless you want to argue doubling the numbers doesn't affect outcomes much :smalltongue:
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
One of the most effective Tau armies I ever saw was nothing but Crisis teams, Fire Warriors in Devilfish, and Hammerheads. It was like trying to fight smoke.
Edit: Just noticed the lack of drones for your battlesuits. They're very good! They're excellent stunt doubles or 'extra lives', and great ways to ensure that the occasional lucky lascannon shot or whatever someone gets on your suits means nothing.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
Alright, had a 1250 Game v Blood Angels
What did I learn? Well, not that much ...
My Captain with Relic Blade ate something like three squads though, which was funny and he even almost forced a draw by Storm-Bolter sniping most of his objective squad. Plus his Sanguinary Guard were killed (except for the Fist-wielding Sergeant) by some scouts I infiltrated, further proving how bad SG are - 100 Points killing 215? That's a nasty point sink.
In the end I didn't have enough tanks and my power armour just failed me too much. There were a couple things that would've changed the game that didn't happen and I had some bad luck, but I think it was a worthy defeat. Blood Angels didn't traumatise me even if my loss looked bad (the survivors didn't reflect the reality of the game).
One last thought -
When a Vindicator, a Plasma Cannon, Two Plasma Rifles and ~10 Marines Rapid Firing doesn't manage to cleanse a single squad and you fail 5/6 Power Armour Saves in return? The dice have finally abandoned you.
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Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Right, stay with me.
<Snip'd>
That was ... a very excellent summary. I'm still fond of my infiltrating Scouts with blades and a Power Fist, but there was some really, really good advice in that. Thanks Cheesegeary person :smallsmile:
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Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Because Matt Ward is a hack? Look at the fact that regular Space Marine Bikers also have Bolt Pistols...
I'm guessing it's to represent the fluff, cause Bikers probably would carry side-arms. It's just fluff with no in-game point, I 'spose.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
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Originally Posted by
Klose_the_Sith
That was ... a very excellent summary. I'm still fond of my infiltrating Scouts with blades and a Power Fist, but there was some really, really good advice in that.
Does the Sergeant have a Shotgun and Power Fist? :smalltongue:
An earlier post explains why.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
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Originally Posted by
Elm11
That's fair enough, i suppose i worded that quite poorly. I should say, that rather than them being useless, i don't find a use for them in my playing style, which involves mobile firebases and diversionary tactics rather than static engagements or close combat. I'm also a poor player when it comes to kroot, so I'd rather not use them when there are firewarriors available instead.
Yeah, I do find kroot work better with a static fire base, but i wouldnt recommend giving up on them as a whole so readily.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
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Originally Posted by
Trixie
If the enemy unit ran after receiving 5 pistol shots, it wasn't a threat to begin with. Even with abnormal rolls, making anything run is pretty improbable. Hell, giving more than one wound is.
10 shots, though, have a good chance even with enemies more numerous than the scouts, unless you want to argue doubling the numbers doesn't affect outcomes much :smalltongue:
Getting two wounds on a squad of Devastators or 3 on a squad of Guardsmen with Boltpistols isn't altogether too unlikely. Besides, killing too much of a unit isn't actually a bad thing, as far as I know. Other than Space Marines, there's a decent chance it won't rally, and either way it can't shoot heavy weapons.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
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Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Does the Sergeant have a Shotgun and Power Fist? :smalltongue:
An earlier post explains why.
I haven't modelled him as such, it's just the pistol :smalltongue:
Although I did want to give him the shotgun, but the power fist was on the wrong hand for the only good shottie I could give him (from a scout bike).
I'll probably give the next Scout Sergeant Power Fist + Shotgun.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
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Originally Posted by
Klose_the_Sith
I'll probably give the next Scout Sergeant Power Fist + Shotgun.
PROTIP; Use the kickarse Shotgun-arm from the Scout Bikes. Use the pointy-Power Fist from the Assault Squad box.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
Ok, just got back from play testing my initial 500 point army. I got beaten so badly that it was just funny after a while.:smalltongue:
My first battle was against a Space Wolf player who brought a couple of Long Fang Squads and a squad of Blood Claws. On turn one both of my Razorbacks had magically transformed into craters, and my Sternguards were left with only the Blood Claws to shoot. I tried diving them into cover, but one of the squads got assaulted by the remains of the Blood Claws and the other just got blown to pieces by Krak Missiles. The Scouts had almost no effect on the game.
My second battle was against a Tyranid player who plans on bringing nothing but Genestealers. Again, I was massacred. I even tried deploying my Sternguards inside of the Razorbacks so they wouldn't be assaulted the moment the Genestealers came onto the board, but the sheer volume attacks that the Stealers were able to toss at my Razorbacks made the point almost moot. Sure, I was able to get a turn of shooting in, but a lot of them were still standing when the bolter shells stopped flying. Needless to say, my Sternguard Veterans were massacred. You could literally see the body parts flying a mile away. Again, the Scouts had almost no effect on the game.
I'm thinking of dropping the Razorbacks. Sure they're pretty powerful in their own right, but it just feels like I could be spending my points better. Maybe I can get myself another half-man squad of Sternguards and trick some of them out with maybe combi-plasmas or combi-meltas just to take care of light vehicles?:smallconfused: If anyone has any opinions on this, I'd really appreciate some feedback!:smallbiggrin:
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
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Originally Posted by
Razaele
I even tried deploying my Sternguards inside of the Razorbacks so they wouldn't be assaulted the moment the Genestealers came onto the board, but the sheer volume attacks that the Stealers were able to toss at my Razorbacks made the point almost moot.
This line puzzles me. What size were those tables you were playing on? At that size of the game, you should have been playing on a 48"x48" table - the Genestealers should require some two turns of running towards you before they even reach you, and most definitely not be able to assault you the moment they come onto the board.
If you were playing on a smaller table, well... that just doesn't work. You might as well half the range of all your weapons and drop your armour saves to 5+ instead of 3+, and it would probably still be less weakening to your army than playing against a Genestealer-using Tyranid player on a table so small the Genestealers can pull off first turn assaults.
If, on the other hand, the reason they were able to do that was because you'd deployed so much at the sides of the table... well, never do that against Genestealers. :smallwink:
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma
Well, thing is, you were waiving force organization for those battles, yes? (Didn't sound like any of the armies were legal) The game is not really balanced that way.