[PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

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Originally Posted by Giddonihah

Animal Soul is hilarious and perhaps potentially broken. It makes you count as an animal, animal companion or special mount for the purpose of spells. So if you can figure out a way to get your int low enough you could get awakened :smalltongue:.

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Feeblemind?

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Originally Posted by Shinken

Feeblemind?

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That should work. And scarily works multiple times as even when Awaken turns you into a magical beast, Animal Soul makes you count as an animal.

Doesn't awaken give you a couple of RHD? Well since this is pretty much TO you could probably "Do the Wight thing" to deal with those extra HD.

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Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

Doesn't awaken give you a couple of RHD? Well since this is pretty much TO you could probably "Do the Wight thing" to deal with those extra HD.

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Not in Pathfinder - you can't lose HD or levels from level drain.

Damn.... well then an "infinite" Awaken loop isn't that good.

The RHD still gives feats, Hitpoints, Saves and skills, with Awaken giving Charisma and Int you end up with all skills maxed and insane over the top knowledge and social skills. When all skill checks are effectively 'yes' and you have every feat in the game that's not class specific, you are still going to be very strong.

Take 4 levels of Cavalier for Horse Master and you get an animal companion that scales with your Racial Hit die, and you can use a bunch of your feats to buff it with evolution points and stuff from the ACG to make it fly.

On the less broken side of Animal Soul, Animal growth is a superior enlarge person, and it might be nice enough to justify getting Animal Soul by itself.

I just started building a Wyvaran hunter (terrible race without 3.P I know, but I like them) and I've been having fun with it.

The more I look the more I'm underwhelmed by the new Druid/ranger spells though and the Hunter really suffers from being a true 6th level caster. Unlike say, Inquisitor, Summoner or Bard who have 8ths/9ths on their "six level" list.

What is a Wyvaran?

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Originally Posted by Psyren

I would say no, because the FCB says nothing about "spells known." It just puts them in your book. So you do not get more spells prepared out of it.

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Hm, are there any other effects that add to spells known that I could reasonably exploit with an Arcanist?

How did they handle warpriests without deities? I recall that being choppy in the playtest.

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Originally Posted by Talya

That's a good change to paragon surge. Though it's still an outstanding spell, and still probably puts a half-elf sorcerer/oracle at the bottom of tier 1.

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Naw, it just takes an extra feat now.

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

Naw, it just takes an extra feat now.

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Emergency Attunement, I believe?

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Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

What is a Wyvaran?

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Hybrid of a Kobold and Wyvern +2 dex/wis -2 int, dragon type, 30ft(clumsy) fly, slapping tail(1d8 natural attack only usable on AoOs), dark/low light vision.

http://i.imgur.com/t3sH8xy.png look like that.

That lets you change to a different choice from the same list (i.e. a different feat, not a different spell.) It does not let you change the choices within the choice you made. So you can't change "Expanded Arcana: Spell A" to "Expanded Arcana: Spell B" as that would be choosing the same feat (even if you are trying to change what that feat gives you.) Similarly, you can't change "Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) - New Arcana - Spell A" to "Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) - New Arcana - Spell B" as that is the same feat again.

What you can do is go from "Expanded Arcana: Spell A" to "IEH(A) - NA - Spell B." But the first time you do that, your choices for both of these feats are locked in, so every time you switch back to them you will get the same two spells (A and B) every time. That's still two floating spells per day, so still very useful, but not unlimited versatility.

So, looking through it, I like most of the classes (Arcanist aside, mostly in a "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?"). Hunter looks really fun to me.

I was just skimming through Feats and saw Counterpunch. You get to make an AoO when unarmed and someone mises you. This is all I can think of

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

Naw, it just takes an extra feat now.

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Kind of. Oracles lost access to the wizard spell list in another FAQ, though, so tier 0 oracles aren't really a thing anymore.

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Originally Posted by Squirrel_Dude

Kind of. Oracles lost access to the wizard spell list in another FAQ, though, so tier 0 oracles aren't really a thing anymore.

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This as well.

Though they now have Divine Grace so they're not doing too shabby regardless :smalltongue:

Is it just me or did master of many styles monk just get quite a few new combinations to do with the new style feats?

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Originally Posted by Craft (Cheese)

In the playtest the warpriest had so much competing for their swift action every round (and blessings were generally so weak) that none of the blessings would ever really come into play in-game.

I actually took the time to rewrite all the Warpriest Blessings while the playtest was going on; Can't say I'm surprised none of the devs took my advice.

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Giving that you're a random person on an internet forum, I can't say I'm surprised either.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

That lets you change to a different choice from the same list (i.e. a different feat, not a different spell.) It does not let you change the choices within the choice you made. So you can't change "Expanded Arcana: Spell A" to "Expanded Arcana: Spell B" as that would be choosing the same feat (even if you are trying to change what that feat gives you.) Similarly, you can't change "Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) - New Arcana - Spell A" to "Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) - New Arcana - Spell B" as that is the same feat again.

What you can do is go from "Expanded Arcana: Spell A" to "IEH(A) - NA - Spell B." But the first time you do that, your choices for both of these feats are locked in, so every time you switch back to them you will get the same two spells (A and B) every time. That's still two floating spells per day, so still very useful, but not unlimited versatility.

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This is entirely debatable. For example, the spells grants you options off a list, it just happens to be through coincidence.

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Originally Posted by Squirrel_Dude

Kind of. Oracles lost access to the wizard spell list in another FAQ, though, so tier 0 oracles aren't really a thing anymore.

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I've dug through the FAQs and I can't find this. Help a pile o' snow out? :smalltongue:

These are very odd decisions considering the boost of power the Arcanist is compared to the oracle. The oracle was already pretty meh, considering it suffers from most of the problems favored soul does in 3.5.

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Originally Posted by animewatcha

Is it just me or did master of many styles monk just get quite a few new combinations to do with the new style feats?

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Yep. Not only that, but MoMS still ignores the prereqs of all subsequent feats in the chain, and if you start with an unarmed fighter dip, you can skip the prereqs of the first feat as well.

Wait are there new style feats? Did they remove the silly requirements like improved unarmed?

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

This is entirely debatable. For example, the spells grants you options off a list, it just happens to be through coincidence.

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The options the spell gives you are the feats themselves, not the spells granted by those feats. It lets you switch to a new feat from the list of allowed feats for Paragon Surge, but otherwise does not contradict the FAQ, which states that "all the associated choices" that go with those feats are locked in for the day the first time you select them.

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

I've dug through the FAQs and I can't find this. Help a pile o' snow out? :smalltongue:

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That would be this one.

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

Wait are there new style feats? Did they remove the silly requirements like improved unarmed?

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Grabbing style, Jabbing Style and Pummeling Style. Grabbing does not require IUS but the other two do (but Grabbing requires Improved Grapple, which itself requires IUS.)

As far as requiring IUS, these seemed aimed at Brawlers so it kind of makes sense that they do.

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Originally Posted by HylianKnight

Giving that you're a random person on an internet forum, I can't say I'm surprised either.

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I'm surprised you had to be this rude for no reason, though.

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

Wait are there new style feats? Did they remove the silly requirements like improved unarmed?

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Why is Improved Unarmed Strike a silly requirement for all these unarmed combat styles? :smallconfused:

Did anyone else get a mental image of the Hyuga clan from Naruto while reading Jabbing Style?

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Originally Posted by Psyren

The options the spell gives you are the feats themselves, not the spells granted by those feats. It lets you switch to a new feat from the list of allowed feats for Paragon Surge, but otherwise does not contradict the FAQ, which states that "all the associated choices" that go with those feats are locked in for the day the first time you select them.

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Nothing in either text indicates that.

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That would be this one.

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Oh you... okay, I have no word that would properly expressed this without getting censored. What about Samsarans, which was released before this? Or trying to improve your spell list legitimately without cheese? It's a 3 feat chain to learn 2 spells off another list.

It's bad enough you have to dig all over the place for these damn FAQ, but they release another blandification measure. Oracles are already stuck with a reactive spell list for the most part, so having less (id est zero) options to branch out should make little sense to anyone. Sounds like they REALLY want everyone to play Arcanists instead.

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As far as requiring IUS, these seemed aimed at Brawlers so it kind of makes sense that they do.

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Originally Posted by Shinken

Why is Improved Unarmed Strike a silly requirement for all these unarmed combat styles? :smallconfused:

Did anyone else get a mental image of the Hyuga clan from Naruto while reading Jabbing Style?

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Classes with no class are the only ones that are allowed to have style, according to Paizo. It's the same problem with all feat chains have had for all of 3.x. Trying to get something out of your feats costs a whole bunch of feats you don't want. This is so certain classes with no value gain some artificial importance. They really should cut down on all of this feat tax stuff so it can open up more interesting combinations.

I'm not a Naruto fan, either. *hides*

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

Nothing in either text indicates that.

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All I can do is point you to the FAQ - it's quite clear, both in wording and intent. The first time you choose a feat, you are locked into the associated choices that come with it; it's not a toolbox (at least, not more than once per day.)

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

Oh you... okay, I have no word that would properly expressed this without getting censored. What about Samsarans, which was released before this? Or trying to improve your spell list legitimately without cheese? It's a 3 feat chain to learn 2 spells off another list.

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Samsaran explicitly adds them to the list so it is in the clear, as do pretty much all other legitimate-without-cheese means.

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

It's bad enough you have to dig all over the place for these damn FAQ, but they release another blandification measure. Oracles are already stuck with a reactive spell list for the most part, so having less (id est zero) options to branch out should make little sense to anyone. Sounds like they REALLY want everyone to play Arcanists instead.

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You're kidding, right? :smallconfused: Oracles are more than fine, especially now.

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

Classes with no class are the only ones that are allowed to have style, according to Paizo. It's the same problem with all feat chains have had for all of 3.x. Trying to get something out of your feats costs a whole bunch of feats you don't want. This is so certain classes with no value gain some artificial importance. They really should cut down on all of this feat tax stuff so it can open up more interesting combinations.

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Tax evasion :smalltongue:

Man, I wish I could justify buying this one... can someone put up details of the new styles?

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Originally Posted by Psyren

Samsaran explicitly adds them to the list so it is in the clear, as do pretty much all other legitimate-without-cheese means.

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Eldritch Heritage?

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You're kidding, right? :smallconfused: Oracles are more than fine, especially now.

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Fine != good. In my very humble opinion the Wizard list is the one that is better suited for spontaneous casters. A larger portion of the cleric spells operate in specific circumstances, and will often be a waste of a spell known. This was one of the biggest problems with the favored soul in 3.5, too.

And cha to saves does not a class make. I don't see that as a large incentive to take it over a class that has a better casting stat and better base saves, especially if it costs you feats. They are, in fact, worse off without any options to improve their spell lists outside their caste.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

Tax evasion :smalltongue:

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*ahem*
Exactly my point!
This should not be!
Cookie cutters!
Feat chains are the worst!

EDIT: Psyren, the fighter option doesn't even function for this! It loses a bonus feat to get a feat tax you were taking while hoping it would work with your cool halberd!

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Originally Posted by PsyBomb

Man, I wish I could justify buying this one... can someone put up details of the new styles?

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Grabbing Style:
Feat 1: You can grapple one-handed without penalty and pin opponents without losing your Dex to AC. (This lets you grapple two foes at once.)
Feat 2: You can drag a single opponent at full speed while grappling them instead of half speed, then you can drag them half speed again with a move action.
Feat 3: You can damage or drag two foes you are grappling with the same action.

Jabbing Style (my personal favorite:)
Feat 1: You do extra damage to any foe you hit twice (1d6), and more if you hit them three times (2d6).
Feat 2: You can take a free 5-foot step every time you land an attack - you must end adjacent to the foe you hit. (You can circle a single foe or slide along a line of them etc.)
Feat 3: The extra damage from Feat 1 is doubled.

Pummeling Style:
Feat 1: Basically it's clustered shots for punching.
Feat 2: You can charge and make a clustered punch.
Feat 3: When you hit with your clustered punch, you get a free trip or reposition attempt. (You can combine this with feat 2 to trip/reposition after your charge.)

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

Eldritch Heritage?

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Pick a spell that's on your list, it's not the end of the world. This nerf was absolutely needed.

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

Fine != good. In my very humble opinion the Wizard list is the one that is better suited for spontaneous casters. A larger portion of the cleric spells operate in specific circumstances, and will often be a waste of a spell known. This was one of the biggest problems with the favored soul in 3.5, too.

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This gives you a very situational spell at a moment's notice, and the cleric list is chock-full of those. How often do you need to remove a curse, or remove blindness/paralysis, or restore someone to flesh - not often enough to need it as a spell known, I'll bet, but when you do need it I bet you'll be very glad to have it. Especially since you don't have to trek back to Magic Mart to do it.

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

And cha to saves does not a class make. I don't see that as a large incentive to take it over a class that has a better casting stat and better base saves, especially if it costs you feats. They are, in fact, worse off without any options to improve their spell lists outside their caste.

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If "worse off" still lands me in T2, I'll take two with a side of fries, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

*ahem*
Exactly my point!
This should not be!
Feat chains are the worst!

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Right, so those two classes (and the Brawler, which is their hybrid) are the kings of style feats. That's fine! Working as intended!

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Originally Posted by Snowbluff

Classes with no class are the only ones that are allowed to have style, according to Paizo. It's the same problem with all feat chains have had for all of 3.x. Trying to get something out of your feats costs a whole bunch of feats you don't want. This is so certain classes with no value gain some artificial importance. They really should cut down on all of this feat tax stuff so it can open up more interesting combinations.

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I disagree. Improved Unarmed Strike is a desirable feat for several characters that don't get it as a bonus feat (specially good for natural attack builds that want to keep iteratives). You can't get much use out of the maneuvers if you provoke every time you attack anyway. Unless your point is that unarmed strikes should never provoke... no, wait, I disagree with that as well.
I mean, I understand where you're coming from with feat taxes, but I don't think it applies here. IUS is not like Combat Expertise, which you only ever take because it's a prerequisite for something else - it's the feat you take when you want to fight unarmed and it makes you better at fighting unarmed. Not requiring IUS for a Style feat would make no sense, IMHO.