Welcome back, Djinn!
Please spare me!
Links or it didn't happen. :smalltongue:
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Lord_Wardens of the Silent Cage and the Illustrious Ones lost the very first partner contest.
Your wording implies more partner contests have gone on since. Oddly enough, my entry this time steals ideas from what Kellus and I were working on for that contest. That said, I've often contemplated starting up monthly or bimonthly partner contests. I wonder if there'd be people interested.
Owrtho
Oh man, that contest. Xallace and I worked our arses off for that one; I don't think I've ever put more thought, effort, or planning into any Homebrew project I've done since o_o.
That contest also makes me laugh, personally, because I had never really read any part of the Tome of Magic before that contest xD.
Is ErrantX doing another partner contest? I was under the impression that he didn't like how complicated it got trying to pick entries towards the end, coupled with the fact that it kind of stinks to have to rely on someone else to get your entry in; I remember a lot of people complaining about that.
But yeah, if Xallace is still floating around the forums, I'm game for a rematch! >: D Would we doing Fate and Destiny vs. Gods and Vestiges again, lol?
Well, what happened for us is that we actually came up with the story, then build the Prestige Classes around that story. Personally, I used to do is come up with the mechanics I want to do first, then fill out a background to fit the mechanics. Having a story as inspiration was HUGE for our success, I think, and it's definitely a lesson I took from that contest in designing; things are ALWAYS stronger when there's a synergy correlation between fluff and mechanics.
Oh, I know. I don't think Gareth and I necessarily lost to bad flavor, although yours was definitely stronger...I honestly think we lost (in part...other entries were exceptional in that contest, and Gareth and I definitely weren't quite up to par) due to the fact that NO ONE, us included, knows how to judge class balance at that level, nor really knows what to do when presented with such a class. :smalltongue:
And, to be honest, it sort of felt good to lose. Helped show me that not all of my wins were based on just tradition and/or favoritism. :smallbiggrin:
@Djin...then we agree to disagree I guess. Never felt like roleplaying flavor should limit the way you can play a class...
Yep. A Base class should be almost infinitely adaptable within the specifications of the class (and sometimes beyond, and conversely, in my homebrew philosophy, a PrC is a very specific and extremely character defining thing. When asked "what are you?", a member of a Prestige Class should, in my mind, answer that he is a member of that class.
As written, for example, a Wizard taking the Archmage class is, well...still a wizard. But a Binder taking, say, my Seidkona of the Iron Bands class would never merely call himself a Binder, since the PrC is designed to become (by its flavor) such a huge part of that character's identity.
But I'll agree to disagree. :smallbiggrin:
I'm agreeing with Djinn as well. A fighter can call himself any number of things from a knight, swordsman, cavalier, armsman, guard, warder, etc. He's still a fighter, because fighter is the base of his abilities. Now if he were to prestige class into a class like Kensai(CW), he's going to universally call himself a Kensai, because that class defines him.
Base class provide a wide base that any number of concepts, themes, ideas, and backgrounds could spawn an amazing character. Prestige class is a defining and specialized class that redefines what that character is, he is no longer just a fighter or a wizard, he's now something more and something more special.
-X
Say, ErrantX? Any chance of getting a winner's list for each contest? 'cause I was trying to find the winners of past contests for the purposes of this post, and I found it EXTREMELY difficult: I had to actually Google the voting threads themselves. Hence why I didn't just use the most recent contests.
Actually, ErrantX, I'd even call the Kensai a poor example, as all the Kensai (the CW version...I'm not talking about the number of homebrew versions I know little of) really is is a superior fighter who specializes in a single weapon. That's easily within the confines of the Fighter base class.
My thoughts on the matter may be a bit extreme, but, looking at past winners of this contest, I think my theory is supported: The Etherjammer, the Goodwife, the Foregoer, the Onyxian Dreamer / Temple Waker, and (including some of my own which demonstrate the concept) the Seidkona of the Iron Bands, the Sybil of the Blinded Eye, and the Warden of the Hedge.
None of the classes mentioned can even really be approximated in terms of abilities and (more importantly) flavor. All of them not only further define a character (as the Kensai does), but they all redefine a character. You may be a Fighter who is, more specifically, a Kensai, but no Etherjammer would consider themselves a Shadowcaster who happens to be an Etherjammer, and no Warden of the Hedge would consider himself just a more specific Paladin.
In short, a PrC is strongest (in my mind, and apparently [judging by the votes and winners] in the mind of the community as a whole) when it is specific and completely redefines a character. That's what makes it Prestigious, as opposed to merely different.
Anyway, that's my little rant. Other people's mileage may vary. :smallbiggrin:
Likewise, strong flavor can sell a class even if the abilities are mechanically bland or uninspired, so strong flavor is clearly something (alongside balance) that we should be aspiring towards. I mean, like, my Children of the Mausoleum aren't as good as Druid 20. I daresay they're probably not even close. But a lot of folks fell in love with the flavor of it and I still get appreciative PMs to this day for causing that class to exist.
And I'd totally be down for another Mano E Mano. Djinn and I actually finished a project together that way!
By the way, Lord_Gareth?
I'm waiting for your entry. I mean it. You've been absent and its time to make your presence known :smalltongue:
-X
Poo. I knew I should have posted my class earlier. Now I have to change it, as Djinn has beat me to the guide bit....
EDIT: He even has a lantern....oh well I'll post it anyways...
Unless your class is specifically devoted to guiding spirits into the afterlife, and both thematically and mechanically almost identical to mine at that, it's more than fine to post it. :smallbiggrin:
I, for example, don't even READ the other classes before I start on mine, so any similarities are purely coincidental.
Yeah, I wrote it entirely independently of you too. But I don't want someone to think I am copying anybody...
My class basically revolves around the Soulspark Familiar soulmeld. I always thought it was cool to have a bunch of soulstuff floating around you, but the soulmeld is kind of lackluster. I figured it would be perfect for the idea that came to mind when I first saw the PrC contest prompt.
Our contest, and this forum in general, tends to assume someone is innocent of stealing ideas unless it can be proven otherwise, and we tend to trust people if they say they didn't. So no worries! Hell...we even base work on each other's stuff all the time. :smallbiggrin:
That, and, quite frankly, our classes are almost nothing alike, so I'm not even sure why you were concerned. :smalltongue:
I'd also point out that my entry somewhat beats both on being a guiding light, though to be fair that's only because one of the base classes it's based on is almost exclusively that (and it does little to advance those abilities).
Well, I have been planning to try making a contest specifically for partner themes. If people are interested I could try starting it sometime soon.
Owrtho
When I first saw your class I nearly fell out of my chair from throwing my hands up so high due to the whole lantern theme that I also stuck to. xD
You executed it differently though, and the fluff is definitely tons different. (Though still very much compatible, which would be interesting to see on a character.) I like the uniquity of needing to be a certain age category too.
Re: The PrC Flavor/Mechanics Discussion
I'm kind of in the middle of the whole thing. I think PrCs are a really useful tool for fitting either function, really. They're the best venue, IMO, for highly specialized flavor, as well as really unique mechanics that may not have the ubiquity to base a 20 level class on.
My general PrC design philosophy is to make classes that have their own unique flavor, but don't necessarily "rely" on it. I want to make it mechanically interesting and "set-apart" enough that the mechanics could show up on a variety of character types. I think the Ikaruga is actually a pretty decent example of this. A mechanical idea I really wanted to flesh out, attached to some light flavor that isn't entirely necessary for the class's function.
That's not to say I'm against flavor-heavy PrCs. The list Djinn quoted are some of my favorites from this contest's history (my own notwithstanding) and the voters really respond well to the excellent flavor they have. So... yeah. Call me Even Steven.
I'll weigh in on the other side of the discussion then.
First, let me say that classes which marry fluff and crunch to make a distinctive and memorable whole are flipping awesome. When done well, it helps a character be memorable and fun as well.
That said, I think of classes as packages of abilities, which can get them mixed up with feats. Let's take the example of cheesy martial arts films for an example to clarify. If your master teaches you the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, that's a feat. It's one discrete thing which not everyone with similar training to you has to be able to do. If your master teaches you the Mantis style instead of the Crane style, that's a different PrC because it makes you more focused on single, powerful strikes and ending combat quickly instead of avoiding and negating your opponent's attacks and winning through attrition. Mechanically, this means you gain sneak attack or some other bonus damage instead of evasion and dodge bonuses to AC and such. Different, thematically similar PrCs. (aside: I have no idea if that is a fair analysis of any Mantis style or any Crane style. It's a decent example though.)
There is one downfall to classes having flavor and mechanics linked, which is exemplified by the Spirit Lion Totem barbarian alternate class feature. Pounce is really, really helpful for mobility of melee characters, and far and away the easiest way to get it is via a one level dip in barb. This means, provided one wants to build a melee character who relies on full attacks, the most effective character will have some barbarian in his background. Refluffing exists: you could have hidden ferocity despite your city upbringing, it could be a secret technique taught to you by aesthetics who occasionally flip out and kill people, etc. But mechanically, that dip in barb is very good and not everyone likes refluffing like I do.
As I just shot myself in the foot by explaining, base classes are pretty flexible. Prestige Classes... I had an example earlier about different martial arts styles, which is kind of relevant here. But my deeper concern is choosing PrCs which have flavor for their mechanical merits due to a lack of other options to get such merits. Master of Many Forms is not guilty of this: it is a class about changing shape, and it makes you better at changing shape. For a list of the offenders, consider the X stat to Y thread. Want to be so tough that weapons don't hurt you? Deepwarden does it, but you have to be a dwarf with a specific kind of goal in life. Want to be so smart that you are hard to hit? Be a Blade Singer (elf), Eternal Blade (elf), Duelist (limits your combat style), factotoum (base class), or a couple of other also niche options. That's an ability that should just be a feat.
I also don't like strict entry requirements precisely because they require you to intend your character to enter the class. That's just a matter of taste though.
I appear to have weighed in on every discussion, rather than just one side of one of them. Such is life.
I threatened to do it if people were interested, you expressed interest, and I saw a lull in contest activity. Thus I present the Pairs Contest for those here interested.
More on topic, anyone care to give some feedback for the Light of Lurking Shadows? Also, only about 2 weeks left for those who want to make changes, or have yet to submit their entries.
Owrtho
Bump for great justice? It seems the Contest has fallen too many pages back, causing it to go unnoticed and unclosed as of yet.
On a sidenote, I won't be able to post or vote in the coming three nights and days due to total absence (a matter which has occurred several times in the past weeks, but those times were usually only a day, two tops).
That was a contest I had fun working on and think it deserve a little more attention even if no new entry are coming. Maybe there's too many contest ongoing at the same time.
Did this die or something?
I will try to do something with this tonight, I promise. I've been working 60+ hour weeks at my job so I don't have time for anything lately. If someone wants to put up a voting thread and be willing to manage that today, that would be fine with me as well. Very sorry guys!
-X
Timing. xD
Don't worry, ErrantX, I at least forgive you. :smallwink:
Drat. I tried to find older voting threads so I could put up one myself, but I can't find them. They're also not linked in any of the contest threads, only the announcement of the winner.
...So... next contest?
Thank you so much for bumping this thread, DMoD. I had lost my internet right in the week NineThePuma posted the link to an earlier voting thread and when I got it back I couldn't find the chat thread either and just decided to forget about it then. :smallfrown:
But seeing it back now, I have put up a voting thread! See here!
Dang, forgot I hadn't done the fluff sections at the end. That's rather annoying.
Owrtho
I myself specifically filled out those last few necessary parts a few days before the official end to avoid that. I think one of the other two disqualifiers intentionally withdrew, dunno about the last one.
In my case, I'd thought I had already done them in the initial rush of completion, after which the only other thing unfinished was the features of light. Due to this and the lack of anyone mentioning they were black I completely overlooked needing to fill them in. Well, there's always next time.
Owrtho
I'm sure you'll manage to come up with something awesome. :smallsmile:
That being said though, we probably need to start thinking of potential themes. Perhaps "powering up", where it is based on abilities like rage, frenzy, ki frenzy, lycanthrope forms, etc. Basically a state that you stay in for limited time, but which makes you stronger.
In case I forget, can someone perhaps email me once the deadline on the voting thread has passed? I might miss it as I will need to deal with my grandmother getting hospitalized suddenly and want to help her out, or my mom who will likely spend most days there.
Additionally, I may not be on as much, but with me I never know in such situations.
I apologize for my absence here. Between my employment situation increasing my hours from 45 to 55-60 due to tax season starting for me at my job, plus family health issues I've been very far from these halls, and I totally dropped the ball here. I suck, and I'm sorry. That being said, I'd still like to run the contests, but with my schedule (or lack thereof), its become more or less impossible.
If someone is willing to take over the contests or at the very least willing to co-run this with me when I have spare time, that'd be appreciated. I look to Morph Bark as he's really been awesome, but if someone else wants to step up and volunteer to at least help me run this through the holidays into next year, that would be incredible. PM me and we'll discuss..
-X
BLATANT LIES.
:smallmad:
Life has you by the metaphorical throat. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We can understand that there's a problem, and the contest will do its best to persevere. I think I can safely speak for all of us when I say that these contests are looked forward to.
Couldn't think of a better place to post this, so... Djinn, are you ever planning on finishing those Seiškona of the Iron Bands vestiges?
New contest: Time.
Go.
I'll do my best to be more active, but I'm gonna rely on Morph Bark to help me field questions and such. I'll second his judgment.
-X
I am made sad that we cannot post old content as part of the competition; I have a really sexy "editing the past" PrC posted on these boards, somewhere...