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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blackhawk748
And Hamil doesn't get it either. And the man is not happy
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I actually was just put onto a compilation of him talking (not highly) of the movies. I didn't know about this until after I just saw The Last Jedi. Watching him talk about it I felt so bad. He couldn't help himself. You can tell he wants to just come out and say "they ****ed my character up" but he's trying to go around it.
The alternative is what Dienekes is suggesting... that Luke has not changed at all since the original trilogy. That his succumbing to taunts by the two most powerful dark side users in the galaxy somehow undermines his heroic sacrifice to redeem his father, and also helps set the foundation for considering the cold-blooded murder of his ten year old nephew.
Yeah, I don't think so. I think Mark Hamil has the right of it. They trashed the character
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Dr.Samurai
I actually was just put onto a compilation of him talking (not highly) of the movies. I didn't know about this until after I just saw The Last Jedi. Watching him talk about it I felt so bad. He couldn't help himself. You can tell he wants to just come out and say "they ****ed my character up" but he's trying to go around it.
The alternative is what Dienekes is suggesting... that Luke has not changed at all since the original trilogy. That his succumbing to taunts by the two most powerful dark side users in the galaxy somehow undermines his heroic sacrifice to redeem his father, and also helps set the foundation for considering the cold-blooded murder of his ten year old nephew.
Yeah, I don't think so. I think Mark Hamil has the right of it. They trashed the character.
Pffthahahaaaa.
No. Hamil wanted this. They didn't trash his character at all, in so much as yes briefly considering stabbing your nephew is probably bad for numerous reasons. But he clearly feels bad about it. Luke Skywalker can make mistakes. Yoda can make mistake. Get over your hero worship.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Hamil wanted to portray Luke again. Then he was given the script and realized he was portraying Luke in name only.
He's very clear that he disagrees with every decision made about his character.
EDIT: Oh, I see you edited your post to tell me to get over my hero worship. So we're fanboys and have hero worship. And you claim the movie is good because "it was done well and they put a lot of effort into it". Seriously, give me a break. Make a case. I've been pretty clear about what I don't like about the movie. All you've said is you don't have time to read the thread, you don't have time to explain why you like the movie, and then you've just accused people of fanboyism and hero worship for not liking the movie.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr.Samurai
Hamil wanted to portray Luke again. Then he was given the script and realized he was portraying Luke in name only.
He's very clear that he disagrees with every decision made about his character.
No he doesn't.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr.Samurai
I actually was just put onto a compilation of him talking (not highly) of the movies. I didn't know about this until after I just saw The Last Jedi. Watching him talk about it I felt so bad. He couldn't help himself. You can tell he wants to just come out and say "they ****ed my character up" but he's trying to go around it.
The alternative is what Dienekes is suggesting... that Luke has not changed at all since the original trilogy. That his succumbing to taunts by the two most powerful dark side users in the galaxy somehow undermines his heroic sacrifice to redeem his father, and also helps set the foundation for considering the cold-blooded murder of his ten year old nephew.
Yeah, I don't think so. I think Mark Hamil has the right of it. They trashed the character.
You'll have to point out where I said Luke has not changed at all. Instead of, this action plays upon the established character traits of the previous movies.
Or where I said his earlier failures undermines his attempts to redeem his father. Honestly, I think his mistakes make his eventual success better. That's why we like characters that eventually get things right, because we watch them try and fail several times to set the precedent that failure is usual. So when success happens it's all the sweeter. That's kind of the entire problem people have with Rey. She succeeds without going through a try/fail cycle first, probably because Abrams thought that made her seem cool and powerful. Without realizing the try/fail cycle is why we like characters in the first place.
I mean come man. Argue with me if you want, but don't twist my words to make it easier for yourself to do so.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Exactly how is Luke out of character?
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
No he doesn't.
So your psychic now?
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Blackhawk748
So your psychic now?
Well... Are you?
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
Well... Are you?
No, I just watched his interviews. He is not happy with how this turned out.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr.Samurai
Hamil wanted to portray Luke again. Then he was given the script and realized he was portraying Luke in name only.
He's very clear that he disagrees with every decision made about his character.
EDIT: Oh, I see you edited your post to tell me to get over my hero worship. So we're fanboys and have hero worship. And you claim the movie is good because "it was done well and they put a lot of effort into it". Seriously, give me a break. Make a case. I've been pretty clear about what I don't like about the movie. All you've said is you don't have time to read the thread, you don't have time to explain why you like the movie, and then you've just accused people of fanboyism and hero worship for not liking the movie.
Okay, here is why I think the movies good.
It starts with a really tense and well executed space battle that segues into what I felt was a very forboding and tense chase sequence over the course of around 18 hours in universe. Ren's journey is one of self discovery where she learns that she needs to trust in herself, not tie herself to past greats to justify her being there, where she talks with a man who was so disgusted by his moment of weakness that he has to escape from everything. While this is going on, the former foot soldier of the First Order gets to go on an adventure where he learns that evil is everywhere, not just in the place he has a personal vendetta against, and he's forced to learn that throwing your life away for some final spit of vengeance is a poor idea. Poe also learns that you can't just buck the chain of command however you want and succeed, everything he does while helpful causes FAR more death than is reasonable for an actual army to function.
I found all of these plot lines to be very well written, the character development fantastic, and the execution of these plot points incredibly well done. The fight on Crait was REALLY cool, with thte artsy red effects of the sand being torn up from the ground really beautiful in a very macbre, bloody way. Of course the light speed dash attack was a genuinely awe inspiring moment. I liked the movie, it was enjoyable. The characters acted in ways that made sense and everything was paid off well. What more do you want me to say?
As for the hero worship comment, yes. Get over yourself. Luke can make mistakes. You're twisting in knots trying to find some way to rationalize "Luke saw the darkness in Ren's heart and on instinct wanted to cut it out" because you cannot stand the fact that maybe your hero isn't perfect. Maybe he just made a mistake. These things happen.
You and the other person who brought this up are at the point where you're reading into the actor's words to be like "no see he agrees this is bad like I do!" when it couldn't be further from the truth.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Dienekes
I mean come man. Argue with me if you want, but don't twist my words to make it easier for yourself to do so.
Dienekes, that's not my intent. I think I'm right. I don't need to twist your words around to do that. But let me see if I can clear this up.
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I think it's out of character for Luke to consider killing his nephew, even if for a second. I think it's out of character for most normal people, let alone a legendary hero like Luke. Let alone a hero that is distinguished for redeeming one of the worst villains in the galaxy. One of the strongest and most evil dark side users in the history of the galaxy.
Your response to that is to say that Luke has always been rash and impulsive. "Just like Luke always was" is what you said. This suggests very little change in the decades that have passed. So I don't think I'm twisting your words. You are equating his turning the lightsaber on and then turning it off at Ben's bedside, with his turning the lightsaber on and then turning it off in the throne room all those years ago.
I'm calling this a false equivalence, because it hasn't been shown that ten year old Ben is worthy of murder in the way that Darth Sidious and Darth Vader were. Especially given that they were at the head of a galactic empire at the time that was subjugating trillions of people.
I think your points fail in those regards. Ben is not Sidious or Vader. And if Luke is still rash and impulsive that he would consider killing a child, well, that's a problem. That needs to be explained. Saying that he's "an all around **** up" so it makes sense that he might consider killing Ben is saying that he hasn't changed in all those years, because you're using his actions in the past to justify his actions in the present.
Now, maybe it is the case that he hasn't changed at all. But then we're still arguing about whether the guy that left himself at the mercy of Darth Sidious to redeem his father is the kind of guy that might consider killing a ten year old boy.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Blackhawk748
No, I just watched his interviews. He is not happy with how this turned out.
He is disapointed about something. That hardly means what you inferred.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I loved this movie. It kicked so much *** it ain't even fair.
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This is also the second movie this year that a character has been hinted to be the secret child of Harrison Ford before being revealed that they were mistaken. And that's great, I love the idea of people assuming that they're some secret link that destines them for greatness, and, even when finding out that that isn't true, and that they're actually nobodies, that they can still strive to be great anyway. I feel like this is a deconstruction we need more of in this day and age.
I also love that the Force feels mystical again, as opposed to just a simple bag of tricks with the same two or three tools in it.
It's so weird to be excited about Star Wars again, I love it.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr.Samurai
Dienekes, that's not my intent. I think I'm right. I don't need to twist your words around to do that. But let me see if I can clear this up.
I think it's out of character for Luke to consider killing his nephew, even if for a second. I think it's out of character for most normal people, let alone a legendary hero like Luke. Let alone a hero that is distinguished for redeeming one of the worst villains in the galaxy. One of the strongest and most evil dark side users in the history of the galaxy.
Your response to that is to say that Luke has always been rash and impulsive. "Just like Luke always was" is what you said. This suggests very little change in the decades that have passed. So I don't think I'm twisting your words. You are equating his turning the lightsaber on and then turning it off at Ben's bedside, with his turning the lightsaber on and then turning it off in the throne room all those years ago.
I'm calling this a false equivalence, because it hasn't been shown that ten year old Ben is worthy of murder in the way that Darth Sidious and Darth Vader were. Especially given that they were at the head of a galactic empire at the time that was subjugating trillions of people.
I think your points fail in those regards. Ben is not Sidious or Vader. And if Luke is still rash and impulsive that he would consider killing a child, well, that's a problem. That needs to be explained. Saying that he's "an all around **** up" so it makes sense that he might consider killing Ben is saying that he hasn't changed in all those years, because you're using his actions in the past to justify his actions in the present.
Now, maybe it is the case that he hasn't changed at all. But then we're still arguing about whether the guy that left himself at the mercy of Darth Sidious to redeem his father is the kind of guy that might consider killing a ten year old boy.
First question before I go into the rest of this.
Where are you getting he's 10?
In the flashbacks, Ben is still played by Adam Driver, with no obvious make-up or cgi to make him younger.
Hell, when asked when Luke's academy was attacked Pablo Hidalgo said "less than 14 years ago." Adam Driver is 34 years old. Assuming Ben is around that age, which I don't see a reason why he wouldn't be, and the betrayal seems to have happened when he was 20 years old or older.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
What more do you want me to say?
What you said there is fine. I just wanted you to stop being a coward for a moment and actually support your opinion of the movie instead of calling everyone else out as fanboys and hero worshipers.
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As for the hero worship comment, yes. Get over yourself. Luke can make mistakes.
I can't roll my eyes hard enough. I see a trend with people that like ****ty movies. You have to attack the motive and intent behind critics instead of actually addressing the points being made.
Of course Luke can make mistakes. Remember when he left to face Vader and lost his hand and found himself dangling underneath the Cloud City? Remember when he fell through a pit trap and found himself facing a rancor? Luke is not perfect. He's not a god. No one is expecting him to be.
In an attempt to call me out as a hero worshiper, you are equating "I may have to kill this boy in cold blood" with "a mistake". And, you're very conspicuously ignoring the part where Luke's great act of heroism was to deliver himself to Sidious to move his father's heart to the light side.
This is about characterization, not hero worship.
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You're twisting in knots trying to find some way to rationalize "Luke saw the darkness in Ren's heart and on instinct wanted to cut it out" because you cannot stand the fact that maybe your hero isn't perfect. Maybe he just made a mistake. These things happen.
I'm not twisting in knots, though your style of "argumentation" is a little nauseating.
If you want to reduce "almost deliberately murdered his nephew" to "a mistake", then that's cool. Obviously it doesn't bother you and it doesn't seem counter to Luke's character. I obviously can't change your mind on that and it doesn't seem that we'll even come to any sort of understanding because you seem to have me figured out already.
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You and the other person who brought this up are at the point where you're reading into the actor's words to be like "no see he agrees this is bad like I do!" when it couldn't be further from the truth.
So you keep saying. Feel free to elaborate, because I'm not sure how
I pretty much fundamentally disagree with every choice you’ve made for this character. Now, having said that, I have gotten it off my chest, and my job now is to take what you’ve created and do my best to realize your vision. is far from the truth.
And again... how weak of an attack. I was responding to someone bringing Mark Hamill up. I didn't use him as an argument. Please, stop guessing at my intentions, because you're **** at it and you're not half as clever as you think you are. If you want to discuss the movie, we can do that.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dienekes
First question before I go into the rest of this.
Where are you getting he's 10?
In the flashbacks, Ben is still played by Adam Driver, with no obvious make-up or cgi to make him younger.
Hell, when asked when Luke's academy was attacked Pablo Hidalgo said "less than 14 years ago." Adam Driver is 34 years old. Assuming Ben is around that age, which I don't see a reason why he wouldn't be, and the betrayal seems to have happened when he was 20 years old or older.
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Holy crap, I think you're right. Was it Adam Driver in the flashbacks? Doesn't Luke say "it was a scared little boy looking back at me" or something along those lines? Yeah, someone correct me, because maybe I'm way off on the age. It wouldn't make sense for him to be ten since he was leading the Knights of Ren.
EDIT: So the movie takes place in 34aby, and he was born 5aby, so he's 29, and if the attack happened 14 years ago he'd be around 15. Sorry for the confusion, not sure where I got 10 from.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I mean I do just consider it a mistake. And from what I recall of the original trilogy, Luke wasn't there to sacrifice himself. He was there to redeem his father. Which included fighting Sidious. Also it'd be cool to link the interview, since otherwise I'm forced to assume you're reading into things.
I'm not a coward, I'm ****ing busy. I don't need to defend myself for liking a film you don't. I bring up hero worship because it's an outright theme of the film, that accepting failure exists and that your heroes aren't perfect is the main crux of the film. The fact that you're falling into that isn't meant as a personal attack, it's just a straight up true thing. I'm not trying to "beat" you, I'm just questioning your incredible dislike for a film that seems to stem from "I don't think Luke would ever consider killing a child".
For what it's worth, Luke used the force choke to kill those pig guards. The dude's not against killing, the hesitation came from the fact that it's family.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
It starts with a really tense and well executed space battle that segues into what I felt was a very forboding and tense chase sequence over the course of around 18 hours in universe.
The chase was a joke, cuz i can name three different reasons why the Rebels should be dead.
1. The 6 Star Destroyers never fired when they came out of Hyperspace, it was all the Supremacy. As far as i can tell, there is no reason for this except that it would kill our protagonists, which is the FOs goal.
2. They should have been swarmed with TIEs. There are 6 Star Destroyers (and another 2 docked in the Supremacy) which have a grand total of 16 Wings of TIE fighters between them. Now, if a Wing means the same that it did for the Galactic Empire (and i have no reason to assume it doesnt) that is a grand total of 1152 TIE Fighters, as one wing is 6 squadrons and a squadron is 12 fighters. Considering the damage Kylo and his two wingmen did by themselves, the TIEs should have annihilated the Rebels.
3. The First Order could do a micro jump. Since the FO has no fuel constraints (and i hate that thats a thing now) they could have siply jumped to a point a parsec or two in front of the Rebels and turned around to hem them in. They have enough ships to do this with little trouble.
Im sure i could come up with more, but the point is the strategy of "chase them down till their out of fuel" was one of the worst ones possible and the only reason it was chosen is because the plot says that our heroes must be alive.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr.Samurai
Your response to that is to say that Luke has always been rash and impulsive. "Just like Luke always was" is what you said. This suggests very little change in the decades that have passed. So I don't think I'm twisting your words. You are equating his turning the lightsaber on and then turning it off at Ben's bedside, with his turning the lightsaber on and then turning it off in the throne room all those years ago.
Luke did occasionally give in to fear and anger in the original trilogy. In Empire when he goes into the cave he strikes out at the illusion of Vader in fear and finds himself in the mask, and in Jedi when he's fighting Vader he clearly gives in to anger which gives him the strength to win and dealing the same wound Vader did to him brings him out of it.
And that's what happened between him and Kylo. He gave in to fear for an instant, then it passed and he resisted the dark again, but this time the damage was really done.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr.Samurai
Holy crap, I think you're right. Was it Adam Driver in the flashbacks? Doesn't Luke say "it was a scared little boy looking back at me" or something along those lines? Yeah, someone correct me, because maybe I'm way off on the age. It wouldn't make sense for him to be ten since he was leading the Knights of Ren.
It was Adam Driver. Luke's comment was about the look in Ben's eyes revealing him to just be a scared little boy, as opposed to the dark evil Luke was afraid that he had already become, not that Luke was about to pull an Anakin on a "youngling." :smallwink:
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blackhawk748
The chase was a joke, cuz i can name three different reasons why the Rebels should be dead.
1. The 6 Star Destroyers never fired when they came out of Hyperspace, it was all the Supremacy. As far as i can tell, there is no reason for this except that it would kill our protagonists, which is the FOs goal.
2. They should have been swarmed with TIEs. There are 6 Star Destroyers (and another 2 docked in the Supremacy) which have a grand total of 16 Wings of TIE fighters between them. Now, if a Wing means the same that it did for the Galactic Empire (and i have no reason to assume it doesnt) that is a grand total of 1152 TIE Fighters, as one wing is 6 squadrons and a squadron is 12 fighters. Considering the damage Kylo and his two wingmen did by themselves, the TIEs should have annihilated the Rebels.
3. The First Order could do a micro jump. Since the FO has no fuel constraints (and i hate that thats a thing now) they could have siply jumped to a point a parsec or two in front of the Rebels and turned around to hem them in. They have enough ships to do this with little trouble.
Im sure i could come up with more, but the point is the strategy of "chase them down till their out of fuel" was one of the worst ones possible and the only reason it was chosen is because the plot says that our heroes must be alive.
Not sure what you're getting at with the first comment. They spend basically the whole move firing on them.
As for the other two points, they're conserving resources. They're not that large an organization, not enough to take over an entire galaxy. Wasting resources is a thing. Also, if it wasn't clear, Hux is enjoying this chase. He knows he can wait them out and playfully pick their ships apart at his leisure, and he's enjoying it. So why end it now? He's won, he can wait.
Also, haaah. Getting upset at space ships having to worry about fuel. I don't get what this is a complaint in the slightest.
It wasn't chosen because it means our heroes live. It was chosen because Hux is a sadistic ****er that wants to torture them slowly with the inevitibility of their death. And it backfired on him hard.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
Not sure what you're getting at with the first comment. They spend basically the whole move firing on them.
As for the other two points, they're conserving resources. They're not that large an organization, not enough to take over an entire galaxy. Wasting resources is a thing. Also, if it wasn't clear, Hux is enjoying this chase. He knows he can wait them out and playfully pick their ships apart at his leisure, and he's enjoying it. So why end it now? He's won, he can wait.
Also, haaah. Getting upset at space ships having to worry about fuel. I don't get what this is a complaint in the slightest.
It wasn't chosen because it means our heroes live. It was chosen because Hux is a sadistic ****er that wants to torture them slowly with the inevitibility of their death. And it backfired on him hard.
One ship. The Supremacy is the only one firing, and it does nothing. And the shots arc. In Space.
The opening crawl says that they are conquering the galaxy, so apprantly they can and they made Starkiller base and the Supremacy. Ya, resources are real scare for the FO.
I dont remember him looking on with sadistic glee, though that may be my inner Thrawn facepalming during it. Also Hux is a lousy villain and i've written him off at this point, hes not threatening.
Because it has literally never been a thing before now, just increasing the plot contrivance.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blackhawk748
One ship. The Supremacy is the only one firing, and it does nothing. And the shots arc. In Space.
The opening crawl says that they are conquering the galaxy, so apprantly they can and they made Starkiller base and the Supremacy. Ya, resources are real scare for the FO.
I dont remember him looking on with sadistic glee, though that may be my inner Thrawn facepalming during it. Also Hux is a lousy villain and i've written him off at this point, hes not threatening.
Because it has literally never been a thing before now, just increasing the plot contrivance.
I'd have to watch it again but I'm pretty sure they weren't arcing. Even if they were, I imagine a couple reasons why they would be. Gravity exists in space.
The Starkiller Base is also their only real "big thing" I feel. The rest of it is just space boats. Strong ones, yes, but just space boats.
That's the point. Hux is a screaming man baby nazi who really wants to pull the wings off this fly and all that succeeded in was ruining his assured victory. I find him a well written villain, and fairly intimidating with what he can ORDER, if not what he can do himself.
I mean first of all, the hyperdrive leaking fuel is the entire crux of the plot for Episode 1. Secondly, "the space ships have fuel" is not a contrivance. It's never been a problem before because it's never been a problem before. Now it is because it IS a problem. Vehicles having fuel makes perfect sense.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blackhawk748
Because it has literally never been a thing before now, just increasing the plot contrivance.
It has been a thing. Maybe not in any of the movies, but various spin-off shows and the like have regularly established the Starships do, in fact, run on Fuel (I recall quite a few episodes of Rebels based around the challenge of keeping the rebel fleet supplied with fuel, or attacking a refinery providing fuel to the Empire).
And even if they hadn't, of all the things to complain about with the chase sequence, "Starships run on Fuel" isn't exactly what I would call a Contrivance. The fact that nobody has mentioned Starship Fuel before on-screen doesn't automatically mean that Starships didn't refuel.
We never see anybody go to the bathroom either. Does that mean that nobody goes to the bathroom in Star Wars?
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BRC
It has been a thing. Maybe not in any of the movies, but various spin-off shows and the like have regularly established the Starships do, in fact, run on Fuel (I recall quite a few episodes of Rebels based around the challenge of keeping the rebel fleet supplied with fuel, or attacking a refinery providing fuel to the Empire).
And even if they hadn't, of all the things to complain about with the chase sequence, "Starships run on Fuel" isn't exactly what I would call a Contrivance. The fact that nobody has mentioned Starship Fuel before on-screen doesn't automatically mean that Starships didn't refuel.
We never see anybody go to the bathroom either. Does that mean that nobody goes to the bathroom in Star Wars?
Except the only starships to ever have fuel mentioned is the little ones. Fighters, Transports, things that land on the ground. As far as i was ever aware, the big ones didnt use fuel, the probably used some sort of self sustaining fusion.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blackhawk748
Except the only starships to ever have fuel mentioned is the little ones. Fighters, Transports, things that land on the ground. As far as i was ever aware, the big ones didnt use fuel, the probably used some sort of self sustaining fusion.
I mean that's on you for assuming a gigantic space boat ran on fairy dust.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr.Samurai
Holy crap, I think you're right. Was it Adam Driver in the flashbacks? Doesn't Luke say "it was a scared little boy looking back at me" or something along those lines? Yeah, someone correct me, because maybe I'm way off on the age. It wouldn't make sense for him to be ten since he was leading the Knights of Ren.
EDIT: So the movie takes place in 34aby, and he was born 5aby, so he's 29, and if the attack happened 14 years ago he'd be around 15. Sorry for the confusion, not sure where I got 10 from.
Yeah, so the quote I’m referencing was after TFA which basically said, ‘we don’t have the entire timeline plotted yet, but the destruction of Luke’s academy was definitely less than 14 years ago.’
So it could be anywhere from 13 years and 364 days ago to the day before TFA.
With the flashback I don’t think Ben looks young enough to portray anyone younger than their 20s and definitely not a 15 year old.
Until we get some author clarification let’s split the difference and say 18.
Does this change your mind on the situation here?
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
As for the hero worship comment, yes. Get over yourself. Luke can make mistakes. You're twisting in knots trying to find some way to rationalize "Luke saw the darkness in Ren's heart and on instinct wanted to cut it out" because you cannot stand the fact that maybe your hero isn't perfect. Maybe he just made a mistake. These things happen.
He debated murdering a sleeping child. I am given cause to wonder what kind of mistakes you allow for your heroes to get away with.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tyndmyr
I mean, he was like...six feet away when she stopped him. I think he'd have made it just fine. And if it wouldn't have stopped the cannon, then why the hell did they attack in the first place? According to them, stopping the cannon was entirely the point. I don't really know exactly how, because the saltspeeders didn't seem like they came with any great plan to begin with, but slamming into it seems as good a guess as any.
It was a Poe Dameron plan. We saw how well those worked out over the course ofvthis movie. Fortunately, Poe realized this himself before too many more people would die.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
He debated murdering a sleeping child. I am given cause to wonder what kind of mistakes you allow for your heroes to get away with.
Would you kill Baby Hitler if you had the chance?
Thats the very question Luke struggled with. Because he knows how dangerous and mass-murdery a Dark Force Ben would become.
He feared becoming yet another Obi-wan. A man whose teachings failed so badly he unleashed a scourge upon the galaxy, dooming millions to die and suffer.
That is what was going through Luke's mind. I don't blame him a moment of weakness. I would have blamed him for acting on it.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
Would you kill Baby Hitler if you had the chance?
No, id make him a successful artist. Probably by taking him to America after Art School.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Blackhawk748
No, id make him a successful artist. Probably by taking him to America after Art School.
Funny redirection.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Rakaydos
It was a Poe Dameron plan. We saw how well those worked out over the course ofvthis movie. Fortunately, Poe realized this himself before too many more people would die.
I mean, I actually found that whole arc to be pretty interesting.
Not necessarily well-executed, but interesting.
Luke's Death Star Trench Run was an act of desperation. Had the Death Star not been destroyed then and there, it would have spelled the end for the Rebellion. "Throw some X-wings at the Death Star" was not a GOOD plan, it was the best plan they had, and it worked.
Poe grew up IDOLIZING that trench run. He's absorbed the heroics, but not the context. That was a desperate, nigh-suicidal attack that the Rebels only considered because they didn't have any other options.
He launched a desperate, costly attack against the Dreadnought because in his mind that's how you win this sort of thing. Sure, the First Order probably hates losing that Dreadnought, but taking it out didn't save the rebellion.
He gambled everything on Finn and Rose's desperate sabotage mission...okay, because Admiral Purplehair didn't feel like sharing her plan, or even saying "We have a decent plan, I just don't want to spread it around in case there are First Order Spies aboard/the FO is listening to our communications".
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
That is what was going through Luke's mind. I don't blame him a moment of weakness. I would have blamed him for acting on it.
...and the blame rests on the character, and the writers, for what happened after. He didn't save anyone by running away. Two of his best friends died looking for him and he didn't care. Ben needed to be stopped and he didn't care. Even when R2 directly threw it in his face about how he was the one who answered these calls before he doesn't care except in a half assed way where he still doesn't really do much until the very end after about three hundred and fifty more people had already been killed.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
Would you kill Baby Hitler if you had the chance?
No. Because it's a baby. This is should not be not a difficult concept.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Blackhawk748
I no longer find that strange. Im more and more convinced that "Professional" reviewers are just paid off by the large Studios to give them good ratings. Then the fans go and say "Wow, that was nowhere near as good as i was led to believe". This makes it all the worse when a legitimately good movie comes out, it can easily get brushed aside as "Corporate Hype"
I find that audience review averages tend to occupy a much narrower band in general. Looking at imdb, even certifiably terrible films rarely tend to sink below about a 6/10. Meanwhile there are only four films that average 9/10 or higher. I think audiences might also be more willing to give terrible ratings to films they found to be "less good than expected" even if they were fine, or sometimes just to buck the trend of a film that's well regarded but they didn't particularly enjoy, while they're simultaneously more reluctant to mark out of the full range in other respects. I've known amateur reviewers, for instance, who have a very high granularity of scoring from 7/10 upwards but hand out the occasional 2/10 as if to justify the otherwise positive marks (but never anything between 2 and 7). Audiences are also less discerning, on average, than professional reviewers, and have seen fewer films so have fewer benchmarks for their scores. This tends to lead to a clustering between 60-80% with the overall figure meaning very little, in my experience.
Ultimately, I think numerical ratings on films are a bit of a waste of time. Rotten tomatoes makes a kind of sense in that it's simply a measure of how many critics gave a film a positive review rather than how positively they reviewed it, but otherwise ratings/review aggregators don't accomplish much. In order to get any value from a review you have to read it, and while it's true that some alleged critics might as well be shills, and others have big fanboy blindspots (albeit probably less so than the average audience member) I do often find them worthwhile.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I honestly liked that fuel constraints where a thing. SW drives are for all intents and purposes reactionless (I've looked at plans, and none have any real remass tankage), but the idea that even large ships need to be refueled or they'll stop working appeals to me.
Maybe because my science fiction writing tries to deal with remass and fuel as limits, to the point where ships being under acceleration during interstellar travel is rare (depending on which universe I use jumps are either instant or most of a hyperspace skip is spent drifting with only occasional thrust for course corrections).
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Jayngfet
...and the blame rests on the character, and the writers, for what happened after. He didn't save anyone by running away. Two of his best friends died looking for him and he didn't care. Ben needed to be stopped and he didn't care. Even when R2 directly threw it in his face about how he was the one who answered these calls before he doesn't care except in a half assed way where he still doesn't really do much until the very end after about three hundred and fifty more people had already been killed.
I thought we were discussing Luke's actions that led to Kylo Ren?
Don't change the topic.
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
No. Because it's a baby. This is should not be not a difficult concept.
I agree with you.
But you and I are very different people, having lived very different lives than Luke. Lets ask a Holocaust survivor what his choice would be.
Luke saw first hand the horrors of Darth Vader. He forgot about more friends and allies to the Empire than you probably known in your life, and he knows his experience is minute compared to other victims. And he felt it all on his shoulder.
Why do you think Kenobi insisted that Vader had to be killed? That he was beyond redemption? Guilt.
And yet. Despite all of that, Luke did not follow through on his fear. He nevertheless failed.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Actually, concerning Luke, I have a question about the timeline of what happened at the Jedi Temple.
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In TFA, we're told that Ben, having been seduced to the dark side by Snoke, betrayed Luke and slaughtered the other students. IIRC we're shown a flashback of Ben/Kylo attacking the temple alongside some First Order troops. The implication being that Ben helped the First Order launch a sneak attack on the temple.
In TLJ, we're told that Luke got spooked, Ben, thinking his uncle was about to kill him (And already pretty far down the path to the Dark Side), pulled a wall down on top of Luke and, presumably, ran off to join Snoke.
So, we have a few options.
1) During the few hours Luke was unconscious in that rubble, Kylo ran off, met with Snoke, and was convinced to go back and slaughter the other students, but didn't bother to say "Hey, luke skywalker is stuck in a pile of rubble over there. You should go blast it".
2) Ben ran off, met up with Snoke, and returned days later to attack the temple. Luke didn't prepare for an assault/evacuate the temple, and somehow survived the attack despite failing to save any of the other students.
3) Ben, upon learning that his Uncle/Teacher was about to murder him in his sleep (The fact that he was wrong doesn't change anything), decides that the first thing he should do before running off is to massacre the other students. Because you can't be a Skywalker falling to the darkside without killing a bunch of baby jedi.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
BRC
Actually, concerning Luke, I have a question about the timeline of what happened at the Jedi Temple.
Spoiler
Show
In TFA, we're told that Ben, having been seduced to the dark side by Snoke, betrayed Luke and slaughtered the other students. IIRC we're shown a flashback of Ben/Kylo attacking the temple alongside some First Order troops. The implication being that Ben helped the First Order launch a sneak attack on the temple.
In TLJ, we're told that Luke got spooked, Ben, thinking his uncle was about to kill him (And already pretty far down the path to the Dark Side), pulled a wall down on top of Luke and, presumably, ran off to join Snoke.
So, we have a few options.
1) During the few hours Luke was unconscious in that rubble, Kylo ran off, met with Snoke, and was convinced to go back and slaughter the other students, but didn't bother to say "Hey, luke skywalker is stuck in a pile of rubble over there. You should go blast it".
2) Ben ran off, met up with Snoke, and returned days later to attack the temple. Luke didn't prepare for an assault/evacuate the temple, and somehow survived the attack despite failing to save any of the other students.
Actually explained in the movie. Luke says he thinks Ben must have thought he was dead.
Also, that while Luke was unconscious he took some of his friends (who became the knights of ren) and slaughtered the rest of Luke’s academy.
So technically, Ben is the one who must have gone on a whole child murdering phase.
In any case this does not match the Kylo in the rain scene in TFA. Maybe we can assume that this was just another scene of Ben being evil. I don’t think we see Ben actually killing people with lightsabers in the scene itself. But I’m not going to go back and check. I didn’t really like TFA enough to rewatch it.
As an aside. I always hated the kill baby Hitler question. Hitler wasn’t the problem, if anything his presence as the leader of the Nazi party made it easier to defeat because he was god awful as a military coordinator.
The Nazi’s rose because of increased political dissension from the unfair restrictions and payments forced upon the German people after WWI and the following hyperinflation and economic collapse. Killing Hitler doesn’t change that or removes the undercurrent of growing antisemitism and racial ideologies.
If you got a time machine go back and fix the Treaty of Versailles, or force Kaiser Wilhelm and Tsar Nicholas to get together and discuss things before WWI started.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
I agree with you.
But you and I are very different people, having lived very different lives than Luke. Lets ask a Holocaust survivor what his choice would be.
Luke saw first hand the horrors of Darth Vader. He forgot about more friends and allies to the Empire than you probably known in your life, and he knows his experience is minute compared to other victims. And he felt it all on his shoulder.
Why do you think Kenobi insisted that Vader had to be killed? That he was beyond redemption? Guilt.
And yet. Despite all of that, Luke did not follow through on his fear. He nevertheless failed.
I think that "take him to America and let him paint" answer was amazing. He doesn't need to die for crimes not yet committed (I'm assuming a time machine here).
Also, I think Kenobi thought that Vader was beyond redemption. Frankly, I think Luke was foolish to try it, since Vader was Space Hitler by that point. It worked out well, but it was a helluva risk.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
I thought we were discussing Luke's actions that led to Kylo Ren?
Don't change the topic.
We were not discussing anything. You were talking about something else with someone else. The fact that I pointed out your entire train of logic is inherently flawed doesn't have to be constrained to a different train of thought.
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
Also, I think Kenobi thought that Vader was beyond redemption. Frankly, I think Luke was foolish to try it, since Vader was Space Hitler by that point. It worked out well, but it was a helluva risk.
I think the Hitler allegory is probably more apt. People don't realize that "dictator" was very much Hitler's fallback career and on some level he was into other things right up into the invasion of Poland, since even as the war was underway he was still deep into Disney movies and practicing his art. The real atrocities didn't begin until much later after things had progressed, and even then only gradually in a kind of mad escalation rather than any kind of concentrated plan from the beginning.
I think it really changes the question if you phrase it less as "there's good in everyone except Hitler types.", and more as "there's good in everyone, including histories worst monsters. But at what point does that no longer matter?".
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
I think that "take him to America and let him paint" answer was amazing. He doesn't need to die for crimes not yet committed (I'm assuming a time machine here).
But you cannot escape the Dark side by running. Especially not if you are a young man.
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Also, I think Kenobi thought that Vader was beyond redemption. Frankly, I think Luke was foolish to try it, since Vader was Space Hitler by that point. It worked out well, but it was a helluva risk.
It was a hail Mary. But it also was the only choice Luke had; he wasnt strong enough to beat Vader and the Emperor..
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
But you cannot escape the Dark side by running. Especially not if you are a young man.
But you can be helped away from it. Luke should have tried harder, not lit up his saber. I can't see the same guy that thinks "Space Hitler can be saved" also thinking, even for a moment, "I should kill this child to stop a great evil."
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Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
It was a hail Mary. But it also was the only choice Luke had; he wasnt strong enough to beat Vader and the Emperor..
Yeah, you're completely right on this.
Also, I especially love when we talk, at least for the avatars.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
I think that "take him to America and let him paint" answer was amazing. He doesn't need to die for crimes not yet committed (I'm assuming a time machine here).
Thank you, it's my favorite answer.
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Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
But you cannot escape the Dark side by running. Especially not if you are a young man.
That is a very disturbing viewpoint
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
It was a hail Mary. But it also was the only choice Luke had; he wasnt strong enough to beat Vader and the Emperor..
Luke was absolutely strong enough to beat Vader. He kicked the old man down the stairs and dominated for the brief periods he fought seriously. The emperor is another matter entirely and much more up for debate but if Luke wanted to just confront Vader on Endor he probably would have won there.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Blackhawk748
Thank you, it's my favorite answer.
I know very little about art, but from what I've seen of his work, it was pretty damn good. Imean, obviously, the world would be a better place if Hitler hadn't been Hitler, but it would be just a little bit nicer even if Hitler had been a nice landscape painter.
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Originally Posted by
Jayngfet
Luke was absolutely strong enough to beat Vader. He kicked the old man down the stairs and dominated for the brief periods he fought seriously. The emperor is another matter entirely and much more up for debate but if Luke wanted to just confront Vader on Endor he probably would have won there.
Without the Emperor goading him into seeing how all his friends would die, his fleet would die, his cause would die, the Empire would continue after crushing the Rebellion, etc., I think it would have been more or less a repeat of the Bespin duel.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
But you can be helped away from it. Luke should have tried harder, not lit up his saber. I can't see the same guy that thinks "Space Hitler can be saved" also thinking, even for a moment, "I should kill this child to stop a great evil.
And Luke would agree with you. He should have tried harder.
Also again. In the flashback, that’s Adam Driver. Ben wasn’t a child during this.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Dienekes
And Luke would agree with you. He should have tried harder.
Also again. In the flashback, that’s Adam Driver. Ben wasn’t a child during this.
To Luke he was, as evidenced by his line.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
To Luke he was, as evidenced by his line.
And to Luke he was also an adult and Sith (or whatever we’re calling evil force users now). That’s the point of the line. He sees Ben as this evil potentially murderous thing. Then when he actually looked he saw the confused child. And he was ashamed for what he almost tried to do.
The same way my parents still sometimes see me as a little boy. Despite the fact I’m as old as they were when they had me.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
Without the Emperor goading him into seeing how all his friends would die, his fleet would die, his cause would die, the Empire would continue after crushing the Rebellion, etc., I think it would have been more or less a repeat of the Bespin duel.
That's unbacked speculation. As we see on the screen, Luke wins every time they come into a clash in that duel.
Hell, not only does he win, but he wins by doing to Vader a lot of the things Vader previously did to him(like that aformentioned kick, which he'd previously used against Jabba's men, showing he's actually fighting to that standard constantly and it isn't a one time boost).
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Spoiler
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I'm kind of confused as to how Finn, Rose and Poe betrayed a plan they didn't know about.
Fuel may be a thing, but to suddenly have less than 18 hours worth out of nowhere is eyebrow raising.
Funny how Poe is being called out on his plans when Holdo also got every other ship in the fleet obliterated. The betrayal is not his fault, he didn't tell Finn and Rose to illegally park and then recruit a random cellmate.
Poe is brash, but he's not a security risk. A First Order plant would not have been instrumental in destroying Starkiller Base.
That Dreadnaught was described as a 'fleet killer', it may actually have been worth the losses in these circumstances.
The thing about Luke is, they were so lazy about it. They could have laid some of the groundwork as to why Luke felt the need to sneak into his room at night in the first place, but instead we just get a romcom style misunderstanding.
Don't think Hux was drawing things out deliberately, he was upset that they couldn't catch them sooner. I don't think they'd have marshalled such a big fleet if there were too many other things to do elsewhere.
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The first six films are about how the entire galactic federation crumbles into dust because of a single family having a really bad marital dispute.
If you completely ignore Palpatine's role in things, and even then it's stretching it. Anakin's role is quite small, he didn't set up the Clone wars, he didn't organise Order 66, he marched into the temple but that would've happened anyway, the 501st would just have taken a few more casualties. His attempt to kill Obi Wan fails catastrophically.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Jayngfet
That's unbacked speculation. As we see on the screen, Luke wins every time they come into a clash in that duel.
Hell, not only does he win, but he wins by doing to Vader a lot of the things Vader previously did to him(like that aformentioned kick, which he'd previously used against Jabba's men, showing he's actually fighting to that standard constantly and it isn't a one time boost).
The argument could also be made that Vader wasn’t actually trying to kill his son. Either consciously or subconsciously. As seen with his attempt to save him.
But either way is pure speculation really. The truth is, Luke couldn’t beat Vader and the Emperor. Which is what he was facing. Whether he could beat one or the other alone doesn’t really matter to the situation at hand.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Jayngfet
That's unbacked speculation.
I'm not gonna argue that, it's totally true. But also, every time Vader and Luke clashed in that movie, he was under severe emotional stress from the Emperor.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
I'm not gonna argue that, it's totally true. But also, every time Vader and Luke clashed in that movie, he was under severe emotional stress from the Emperor.
Except again, there's nothing Luke does against Vader he doesn't do against other people in the film.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Jayngfet
Except again, there's nothing Luke does against Vader he doesn't do against other people in the film.
And this would matter if Vader and Jabba's guards were interchangeable.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
I know very little about art, but from what I've seen of his work, it was pretty damn good. Imean, obviously, the world would be a better place if Hitler hadn't been Hitler, but it would be just a little bit nicer even if Hitler had been a nice landscape painter.
Ya, sadly Europe wanted nothing to do with landscapes at the time. America however was all over landscapes, so his city paintings should have gone over well.
Anyway, I could see Luke doing what he did if Kylo was being possessed (at least partially) by a dark side spirit, like Exar Kun. Then Kun would have taken Luke's fear and blown it up to insane proportions.
Except that's not what we get.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Blackhawk748
No, id make him a successful artist. Probably by taking him to America after Art School.
I think the primary purpose of this post is to insult American's taste in art.
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Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
I thought we were discussing Luke's actions that led to Kylo Ren?
Don't change the topic.
I agree with you.
But you and I are very different people, having lived very different lives than Luke. Lets ask a Holocaust survivor what his choice would be..
You know, I've lived around Holocaust survivors all my life, had one for a teacher, and I never thought to ask that question.
Why does every mass murderer have to be Hitler? Hitler was a particular sort of mass murderer that was also into a sort of nationalism attached to a weird pseudo-scientific racial ideology that also valued very odd attributes as virtues. Like I am pretty sure they are ok with baby killing given reasons (see Holocaust).
Kylo Ren, on the other hand, might be evil, he might even have killed his own share of babies in his day. However, he really has no ideology other than the fact that he likes power and being in charge. He's not even a particularly good leader type, he orders people around like a two year old that was given the remote to a shock collar.
Hux is the closest Hitter analog, and he basically just gets thrown around like a rag doll by the Sith force users until he's a joke.
By the way, Luke shouldn't kill babies either, or 10-year old padawans.
However, I still would find that outcome delightful since I have already had to sit through two movies with the infuriating Kylo Ren in it and no doubt he'll be in a third.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Blackhawk748
Anyway, I could see Luke doing what he did if Kylo was being possessed (at least partially) by a dark side spirit, like Exar Kun. Then Kun would have taken Luke's fear and blown it up to insane proportions.
Except that's not what we get.
Isnt it? What was Snoke doing at Luke's academy? It didnt sound like Snoke was another student... but he was whispering in several apprentices ears...
If we are talking an exar kun style malevelant spirit, he must have got a body somehow, but I can believe that as a sith alchemy thing.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
I think the primary purpose of this post is to insult American's taste in art.
Well, to be fair, we did let Andy Warhol be successful.