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2017-12-19, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Agreed. A lot of the complaints about TLJ are actually about the TFA mystery boxes, and how there's no payoff for them. I compare it to the forum game "three word story" where the forum wrotes a "story" three words at a time. The results are hilariusly bad, and we see the same effect with the director jump.
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2017-12-19, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
The film doesn't just tell us Rey's parent's aren't important in passing, it spends lots of time and effort to build it up as a mystery of great importance to Rey, Luke, Kylo...up until Kylo reveals the great insight...Rey's parents are nobodies and it doesn't matter. Then it takes us back to stuff exploding and "laser swords."
As much as I find Kylo to be a unreliable source of information, especially as he delivered it with a self-serving spin, Rey coming from humble origins plays right into the "entire point of the film."
Rakaydos just explicates what the point is.
However, taking issue with Rey's parents not mattering is not a matter of misunderstanding the film, its a matter of understanding exactly what the film is doing, and realizing what its doing is systematically undermining and demeaning Star Wars.
Its not just that Rey has no parents. The Jedi religion has nothing to contribute, the heroes need to learn to stop being so heroic, and the audience needs to forget their expectations for a powerful villain, or that Force skills require training, or for that matter that knowledge requires exposure to books. By the way you can also hack computer systems with bits of metal and its not strange that a lone starfighter or saltfighter can stare straight down on a massive fleet.
In nearly every way this movie can, it throws out the old rules, burns them (sometimes literally), and gives us nothing in its place.The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2017-12-19, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
The themes of this film are very muddled
SpoilerFinn and Poe's attempts at sacrifices to same lives -bad.
Holdo and Luke's sacrifices to save lives- good.
The theme is about saving over destroying...except that virtually nobody is saved. Every attempt to save lives results in more deaths of the people they're trying to save.
Attempts made at equivalence between the sides making arms dealers rich...except that the New Republic mothballed their army as soon as they could, and the Resistance is not particularly well armed, it's a huge plot point how outgunned they are.
You don't need to be Skywalkers to be special...which was always true in the first place, but is presented here as something rebellious and revolutionary.
Anakin was the chosen one... and he failed. Repeatedly and hard. He lost to Dooku, hard. Lost to Obi Wan, hard. Lost to Luke. Yet the new films are pretending that the old theme was that only Skywalkers can be special, and that its revolutionary that Force users are constantly born across the universe...when that was always the case anyway.
Anakin, chosen one born from the force, needed extensive training to be able to be able to put it to use against other Force users. With incomplete training, his first battle loses him a hand.
With even more training, he loses to Obi Wan and nearly dies.
Luke went off with incomplete training... and his first battle loses him a hand to Vader.
The Skywalker bloodline was never the automatic route to greatness that these films are pretending it was so they can reject it.
However, every film before TFA, over and over again, stressed the idea that extensive training was necessary to be effective with the Force, even for the Chosen One.
Rey gets exactly one lesson in this film and otherwise teaches herself. She seems to be even more chosen by the force that the character actually called the Chosen One in universe.
The new films are presenting the old ones as something they never were in order to edgily reject them for rebellion cred.
Which is especially notable when Disney revived a completed franchise to make a movie about how wars between good and evil will keep happening as long as they're profitable.
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2017-12-19, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
In a way, it's repeating the sins of TFA, just in a different manner.
TFA set up some big Mysteries that it wasn't interested in answering. TLJ didn't care to answer them.
It's still asking Questions, some very good ones at that. If the answer ISN'T High-risk heroic solo missions, bringing back the Jedi Religion, and hitting things with lightsabers, then what IS the answer? Where do we go from here?
And, I don't think we're going to get a good answer to any of those questions in Episode IX, because JJ Abrahms probably isn't any more interested in answering those questions than Rian Jhonson was in answering the questions JJ Abrams left behind. Rey is going to rebuild a lightsaber and call herself a Jedi. Poe is going to jump into an X-Wing and blow something up at a crucial moment. Finn is probably going to risk everything on a commando raid of some sort. They'll rebuild a fleet of cruisers and X-Wings, ect ect.
Edit:
On the specific front of Lightsaber Skills.
Rey clearly has some combat skill (with her Staff). She has two lightsaber fights. One against an injured, emotionally distraught Kylo Ren. The other is against presumably well-trained guards who are not Force-Adepts.
If we assume that force powers give you a pretty substantial edge in close quarters combat (enhanced reflexes, limited precognition, whatever), I don't think we have an equivalent to Anakin vs Dooku, Anakin vs Obi-Wan, or Luke vs Vader. Those were all a less-experienced Force User vs a more experienced force user in the prime of their power.
Let's be generous here, and say that her life on Jaaku gave Rey exceptional training with armed melee combat (Staff), and that some of that transfers over to using a Lightsaber. So, we have a less experienced Force Adept beating a badly injured, more experienced Force Adept, and a less-experienced Force Adept beating several more experienced mundane fighters.
There's other things that could be said about Rey using Force-powers untrained, but I don't think the lightsaber fights are much evidence in that direction.Last edited by BRC; 2017-12-19 at 02:03 PM.
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2017-12-19, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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2017-12-19, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Thank you, Dianekes. I'm glad you enjoyed it!
It's interesting to me that the part you single out the most as worthy of praise is also the same thing that the harsher critics also liked -- the three way dynamic between Luke, Rey, and Kylo. You both saw the same good points and the same flaws.
I suppose what will spoil a movie for one person won't for another. Takes all kinds, I suppose.
Respectfully,
Brian P."Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
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2017-12-19, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I find the idea that anyone who dislikes TLJ is an overreacting fan-boy to be odd.
My favorite Star Wars films are Rogue One and Attack of the Clones.
My least favorite film is Empire Strikes back.
Of all the protagonists in the original trilogy C3PO is the only one I remotely like.
I have never consumed any expanded universe media except for KOTOR.
I disagree with the rebellion, the republic, and the Jedi on a moral and philosophical level and always route for the bad guys.
I am a Trekkie for crying out loud.
And I still think TLJ failed on almost every level.
As a standalone movie it ranges from poor to mediocre. It has a few good bits, mostly comedy, and the first act is pretty strong, but for the most part the movie is just long, muddled, and forgettable.
As the second part of a trilogy it is an utter failure. It spends an inordinate amount of time actively pissing on the first installment, does not run with any of the themes or plot elements of the original, and does nothing to set up for or build suspense for part 3.
As part of a franchise it is just baffling. Disney just spent billions of dollars buying the IP, they have three more SW movies currently in production and another trilogy planned after that as well as a TV show and who knows what else. Why would they already be doing a hardcore deconstruction of the franchise and its fans? If they felt they needed to move away from Star Wars why use the Star Wars brand to do it? Why not just put their Disney dollars and the minds behind the MCU into making a new original SF series? Its almost like they looked at Batman vs. Superman, ignored all of the responses to it, and said "Yep, a deconstruction of a beloved franchise is a GREAT way to revive it for the big screen! Get right on that!".
The best I can figure is that the studio saw all the complaints of TFA being a retread of ANH and overcorrected a little too hard. Hopefully EP IX will find a proper balance.
Edit: Oh, and I roll my eyes at anyone who brings up the "Rey is a Mary Sue," and all of the verboten baggage that comes with it, so that's not where I am coming from either.Last edited by Talakeal; 2017-12-19 at 02:02 PM.
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2017-12-19, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
"Organized religion is prone to abuse, but dont let that shake your faith in [deity]"
"Not every moment needs a hero... Know when to hold-em and when to fold-em."
Kylo's arc is great. Rey stole the jedi books, possibly early enough to train herself. Physical access is the greatest weakness of computer security. Poe is a hero (again, in a situation that doesnt need heros, which he learns in time to call off the saltspeeeder attack)
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2017-12-19, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
So what am I genuinely misunderstanding? That you don't have to be special? Since when did you have to be special? A lot of people are involved in the events of the original trilogy. Leia starts us off by making the plot even remotely possible, and not because she's a Skywalker, but rather because she believes in the resistance and has the courage to use her position to aid it. Obi-Wan then decides to bring Luke along with him. Luke makes many choices along the way that impact the plot, sometimes for the worse. If Han hadn't had a change of heart, Vader would have destroyed Luke on the surface of the Death Star, good by happy ending.
So what am I misunderstanding? Please explain. I find the accusations of fanboyism entirely lazy.Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2017-12-19, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
The Original Trilogy, in Isolation, does very little to imply that Being a Skywalker makes you Special.
We learn that Luke is a Skywalker at the end of the second movie, we learn that Leia is a skywalker in the third (IIRC). Luke's connection to vader lets him redeem Vader at the end, and win the fight against the Emperor, and while that's personally quite significant, the Death Star would have been blown up regardless (Vader and Palpatine might have escaped, but nothing that happened in the throne room had any impact on the fight outside).
It's the Prequel Trilogy that set up Anakin as The Chosen One, birthed via Immaculate Conception by the Force itself, implying Specialness to his bloodline, and recontextualizing the first movie. Luke isn't just a Jedi, he's not just the son of Darth Vader, or The Pilot that destroyed the Death Star, he's a Skywalker!
The Force Awakens, by making Rey's parentage a big mystery, also played into the idea that Special People are from Special Families, and the Skywalkers are the only Special Force Family in canon.Last edited by BRC; 2017-12-19 at 02:32 PM.
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2017-12-19, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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2017-12-19, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Going to disagree. IIRC, most of the characters in the OOT, from Obi-wan to Yoda to Darth Vader and the Emperor, all referred to "destiny". If you have destiny, it follows that you have been chosen to do a specific thing. Everyone who has a destiny has been specially chosen to fulfill it.
Whether everyone has a destiny, or only specific individuals (as in Erfworld) was never spelled out. The point is, though, you can't have destiny without something very like both prophecy and fate. Which means not everyone in the GFFA is an equal. Some, at least, are specially marked out as chosen to fulfill a specific task. Which sounds very divine right of kings-ish.
Respectfully,
Brian P.Last edited by pendell; 2017-12-19 at 02:35 PM.
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2017-12-19, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
But that doesn't mean "Special People come from Special Families", which is the specific point under discussion.
Luke could have been Destined to destroy the death star, defeat the Emperor, and rebuild the Jedi order just the same without him being The Son of The Chosen One, or even The Son of Darth Vader.
Anakin could have been Destined to "Bring Balance to the Force" if, his Father had just been some random slave on tattooine who died in a speeder accident.
Rey can be a Super Force Prodigy, Destined to do whatever it is she ends up doing, while ALSO being the daughter of two nobody junk dealers.
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2017-12-19, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I'm not reading this entire thread I have things to do. Ultimately I disagree with the idea that Rey being all this powerful while having no connections to anyone else to be a meaningless point. Some people are just that skilled. No one got upset at Han Solo DEFEATING VADAR in a space battle. Sneak attack or not. This movie takes the idea of destiny and linage and legends and is like "hey maybe that's...not good? Maybe that's all bull****" and I like that. I don't think it's executed poorly, and it's not lazy. They put a lot of effort into it.
Ray's being a nobody who rises to great power due to determination is not at all undermining or demeaning to Star Wars. The Jedi religion IS PRETTY BAD, and Luke's point about them being corrupt is pretty much correct. The lesson Rose told to Finn was not "don't be heroic" it was "don't sacrifice yourself worthlessly". He wouldn't of stopped the cannon, he was focused entirely on getting revenge, instead of fighting to protect. There's a difference, and it matters. The villain IS powerful, Kylo Ren is very strong and ALSO a huge whiny piss baby, which is GOOD because that's the exact type of environment he was built up in. He's the son of the great Han Solo and Leia Ortaga, nephew of the great Luke Skywalker, Grandson of the great Anakin Skywalker, destined golden child who would balance the force. He's a ****ing moron with delusions of grandeur. He's STILL STRONG, though.
The Force is a belief. Did you get mad at the blind guardian in Rogue One being so skilled with the force? And I mean...yes, you can hack a door open through that. That's perfectly reasonable. He's firing off the electrical signals that would make the door open.
It has given us something in it's place. It's given us the teachings of the Jedi, with the afterthought of where they genuinely failed. And it's given us a new beginning.
The first six films are about how the entire galactic federation crumbles into dust because of a single family having a really bad marital dispute.
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2017-12-19, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I think we're in agreement that the original trilogy didn't require anyone to be special as far as bloodlines go. There were many heroes in the original trilogy that weren't a Skywalker.
SpoilerRegarding the prequel, it's an interesting thing. Because the new prequel seems at odds with it. Anakin is the Chosen One that will bring balance to the force. We understood that to mean he brought balance when he destroyed Darth Sidious. But the new trilogy is telling us that the Force balances itself. As one side grows stronger, the other side grows stronger as well. As Kylo gains power, some random person in the galaxy also grows in power. But not necessarily on the light side, because it's implied that she could go dark side at any moment?
So what does that mean? At first it required the actions of a very special person (born of the Force) to restore balance. But now, balance just gets restored on its own. Rey isn't even doing anything. She is simply equal to Kylo Ren. Boom, balance restored. So... how does the balance work?
Originally Posted by RakaydosSpoilerSo the point I'm missing that La Zodiac is alluding to is that orphans will always be disappointed when they find out their parentage?
That's the point of The Last Jedi??
Blaming the movie for getting us to empathize with that is out of place.SpoilerGet the movie fanbase hyped up over her parentage to then pull a fast one, so that we can empathize with orphans? Um... ok. No wonder I misunderstood lol. That's horse****.
I was going to reply to Pendell but BRC said what I would have said, so no need.Last edited by Dr.Samurai; 2017-12-20 at 08:34 AM.
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2017-12-19, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I would actually say the roots that Skywalker makes you special is a bit more important in the OT than you’re giving credit to.
Now the first movie sets it up more like anyone who truly believes in the Force can be a Jedi. But by the second and third we are getting specific lines like “That boy is our last hope.” “No, there is another.” Implying the entire state of the galaxy and the Jedi order rests on the shoulders of Luke and Leia specifically. This along with Luke saying how the Force is strong in his family. “I have it. My father has it. And my sister...”
Now the Prequels take the subtext of the importance of lineage that was pervasive in the last two OT movies and runs it into the ground.
You're welcome, I suppose. I don't think I've ever been thanked for writing my meandering thoughts on a movie before.Last edited by Dienekes; 2017-12-19 at 03:04 PM.
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2017-12-19, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
That's not what he meant. The Force is a balance. Things always even out. It's not saying that someone will be granted overwhelming power to beat his power, just that something will rise up to beat him. Rebellion, another force user, people in general. The Force IS the balance of things.
That's not even remotely what the point is. The point is that sometimes legends are just legends. Rey knew her parents weren't special, so she looked for parents in other figures. Han, Leia, Luke. But in the end what she needed was to accept her past and move on to a better future. Trying to find something special about "her past" distracted her from realizing that she herself can be special due to who she is.
Look, ultimately JJ Abram's dumb mystery box took advantage of a lot of fans and made them start theory crafting about who her parents could be. In the end the answer was "they were just her parents" isn't satisfying feeling compared to the build up, but I do feel like the movie did it's best to make the reveal that they were nobody, as important as if they were revealed to be somebody. Kylo Ren even says that if he ties herself to him, she can "be a part of this story". She'll have a connection that makes her special. But in the end it's she who decides why she's special, she who earns her place in this "story".
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2017-12-19, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
SpoilerYes, it is saying that someone will be granted overwhelming power. That is the explanation we received for why Rey can outmaneuver anyone on the Falcon, why she defeated Kylo Ren in combat the first time she wielded a lightsaber, why she was able to defeat Kylo's mental interrogations, etc.
It's because she's Agent Smith and Kylo is Neo. As he gains power, she gains power. Because of the balance. We learned this in the throne room. That's the explanation of her miraculous power. Case in point, Luke has never felt a power like hers except in Ben. Why? Because they are equal parts on opposite sides of the equation.
I hope you liked The Matrix Reloaded .
That's not even remotely what the point is. The point is that sometimes legends are just legends.SpoilerRight. Sometimes legends are just legends, and sometimes legends are just people that consider murdering their nephews in cold blood because they no longer believe in redemption and stuff. I get it. Sometimes what came before has to get profaned to move forward. Sometimes you just have to **** on stuff to make new stuff.Last edited by Dr.Samurai; 2017-12-20 at 08:35 AM.
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2017-12-19, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
The 'Chosen One' ends the prequels as a ball of fire with no limbs, having been spectacularly defeated by someone with no known special bloodline. Why is that being taken as an endorsement of 'only special bloodlines can do special things?'
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2017-12-19, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
That's not even what happened though. Luke saw the darkness within Ben, and knowing that not cutting out the darkness was what ultimately destroyed the Old Republic, he turned his lightsaber on as a reaction. However, it was a momentary lapse, which he regretted and he was not going to kill Ben because he does still believe in redemption.
Remember, this is Luke. His first reaction to finding out bad news was to scream at it like a child. Then, 4 years later, he put his plan in motion to redeem his father. Here, at least he was going to put the plan in motion after about half a second.
Only, Ben didn't give him a chance. And it's worth noticing, that in their first confrontation, Ben attacks and instead of defending himself, Luke just tries to calm Ben down. He even later says that if Ben can be redeemed, he's not the one that can do it. Because Ben believes Luke betrayed him. He even apologizes for that during their final meeting.
I don't think that profanes Luke at all. It's a bit melodramatic as a story set up. But, honestly, I can't think of a family based story that doesn't fall back on melodrama to get tension building.
He does. But he ends his life defeating the greatest Sith ever (at least according to Lucas). Something that Obi-wan and Yoda were unable to do.Last edited by Dienekes; 2017-12-19 at 03:24 PM.
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2017-12-19, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
By that point he'd already helped bring down the Jedi order and establish the Empire. Then, he went on to be the Emperor's right-hand man, before finally killing Sidious.
He was The Chosen One, Born of The Force Itself, Destined to Reshape the Galaxy, which he did, twice. He just got lit on fire and had his limbs chopped off somewhere in between. That didn't exactly slow him down as time went on.
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2017-12-19, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Last edited by Talakeal; 2017-12-19 at 03:26 PM.
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2017-12-19, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I mean, he was like...six feet away when she stopped him. I think he'd have made it just fine. And if it wouldn't have stopped the cannon, then why the hell did they attack in the first place? According to them, stopping the cannon was entirely the point. I don't really know exactly how, because the saltspeeders didn't seem like they came with any great plan to begin with, but slamming into it seems as good a guess as any.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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2017-12-19, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Exactly.
Originally Posted by Dienekes
SpoilerNow he's older, and wiser, and a Jedi master and... murderous and afraid and reactionary. Right. Brilliant storytelling. Incredible realization of the character.
However, it was a momentary lapse, which he regretted and he was not going to kill Ben because he does still believe in redemption.SpoilerHe tells Leia Ben can't be redeemed.
Remember, this is Luke. His first reaction to finding out bad news was to scream at it like a child.
SpoilerIn The Last Jedi, he's a jedi master standing over a sleeping child. Even young Luke that "screamed like a child" was brave and inspired enough to sacrifice himself attempting to redeem his father. Not sure why older Luke is no longer that. Movie doesn't tell us either.Last edited by Dr.Samurai; 2017-12-20 at 08:36 AM.
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2017-12-19, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-12-19, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I do. I also remember when he flew into a rage and turned it on. I also remember this was again 4 years after the initial revelation.
He tells Leia Ben can't be redeemed.
Because he nearly was a child and learned something horrific, something opposite to what he had been led to believe.
In The Last Jedi, he's a jedi master standing over a sleeping child. Even young Luke that "screamed like a child" was brave and inspired enough to sacrifice himself attempting to redeem his father. Not sure why older Luke is no longer that. Movie doesn't tell us either.
Just like Luke always was.
He says he's not going to kill Sideous. Only for Sideous to taunt him and he then tries to kill Sideous and fights Vader. He says he won't fight Vader, only for Vader to say "Well, guess I'm gonna mess up your sisters life then." And then he fights Vader. He was going to kill his own father too, if it wasn't for the moment of realization that he was acting just like him (a point introduced by focusing on the similarities of the lost hand and reinforced by Palpatine hamming it up in the background).
Then. Finally. He turns the lightsaber off. After ****ing up about 3 times, he does the right thing.
That's Luke. One of the greatest protagonists and all around **** ups in film history.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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2017-12-19, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
SpoilerThis only works when you have a pair of force users communicating with each other so that the one on the Star Destroyer is expecting the other one to show up--and can sense that they're actually on the incoming object.
SpoilerBased on my one viewing, I got more or less the same impression. I didn't catch numbers, but Kylo definitely drew more attention and killed more of the guards on his own. It's reasonable to conclude that he's better at combat (as long as he isn't severely wounded) even if Rey can match him in a direct tug-of-war via Force strength.Last edited by tiornys; 2017-12-19 at 04:02 PM.
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2017-12-19, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait