EMPIRE! CWBG XIII: F5: Document Spirits F10: Summon Balepig, Keeper of Oaths

As I read through stuff becoming an underwater vassal might be the way to go xD

Ok, I'm back to normal. Temporary burst of insanity, seems to happen a lot.

So, how's stuff?

Well, Shadow, there are a lot of options open for you:
- Uncolonized land regions
- Unexplored land regions (requires QuintonBeck's approval and cooperation)
- Underwater regions (unexplored or not)
- Underground regions (many of which are unexplored, but 76B and 21B are still not occupied)
- Taking over an NPC nation

For polar regions, there are probably anywhere up to 8 polar regions in the south yet unexplored, and I think P6 up north is also still unoccupied. Not sure about P6 though, but the south is wide open.

As to underwater vassals, you'd have to ask WaylanderX or RandoMan about that, as they are the only two players who can vassalize others and who already have underwater regions.

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Originally Posted by Morph Bark

As to underwater vassals, you'd have to ask WaylanderX or RandoMan about that, as they are the only two players who can vassalize others and who already have underwater regions.

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Wait, can't he vassalize under Gengy?

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Originally Posted by moossabi

Wait, can't he vassalize under Gengy?

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Gengy doesn't have a Great Kingdom.

I should note that playing an underwater region is not for everyone so, Shadow, there's no obligation at all to go that route if you don't want to. Nor is being a vassal, although speaking as someone who's never been anything but a vassal in this game, it's actually a pretty good deal so long as your liege isn't totally hopeless.

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Originally Posted by Aedilred

Gengy doesn't have a Great Kingdom.

I should note that playing an underwater region is not for everyone so, Shadow, there's no obligation at all to go that route if you don't want to. Nor is being a vassal, although speaking as someone who's never been anything but a vassal in this game, it's actually a pretty good deal so long as your liege isn't totally hopeless.

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Ooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh...

I forgot about that rule. :smallconfused::smalltongue:

Lunch time. Then the Kingdom of Faelthalas will be worked on

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Originally Posted by Shadowz1797

Lunch time. Then the Kingdom of Faelthalas will be worked on

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That name is flippin awesome. Just wanted to say so.

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Originally Posted by Gengy

I can recommend excellent spots, if you'd like to start out with vassalege in mind :smalltongue: (kidding, kidding! ...mostly...)

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Wait. That worked?!? Echum, I mean...

...yes. Yes, you are welcome to underwater areas. If you are interested with vasslaege in mind, I've got some recommendations. But as others have said, you don't have to vassalize. If you *are* interested, though, Praeclarus has some lovely welcome gifts! PM me.

...with that in mind, there are some zones I am also working to diplomicize (ie, colonize) and would appreciate a heads up if you were interested in those region(s).

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Originally Posted by moossabi

That name is flippin awesome. Just wanted to say so.

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Thank you thank you

EDIT: 153 looks increasingly interesting

Hey guys, I am very intrigued by Empire! and can't wait to play it. My interest lies in having a polar kingdom, either northern or southern. If a GM could reply with more info for me, that'd be great. Can't Wait!

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Originally Posted by Shadowz1797

Thank you thank you

EDIT: 153 looks increasingly interesting

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153 is occupied, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by ShadowShrubbery

Hey guys, I am very intrigued by Empire! and can't wait to play it. My interest lies in having a polar kingdom, either northern or southern. If a GM could reply with more info for me, that'd be great. Can't Wait!

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Two new players called Shadow, this won't get confusing... :smallwink:

P6 and P7 are currently empty and available for claiming. A logically conjectured P5 would be too, if Quinton chose to make it available.

There are also polar regions in the south, but they haven't yet been discovered and I'm not sure how far they are from the edge of the current map and so whether they'd be appropriate for a new player to start in.

Is the spreadsheet not updated bc I keep seeing empties but they're occupied

Which spreadsheet? Most of the lists stored on the forum are at least slightly out of date, as there's been a lot of expansion recently.

I think the list on the wiki is up to date, though. I'm not sure about 72, and looking at that reminds me that I think 101 is currently empty in addition to those I already mentioned.

Here is the latest map, click to zoom in. Unfortunately, the OP of the Lands of Telluris thread is not up to date, due to the creator of the thread being very busy and not around as much as before.

The following regions are unoccupied:

P6
P7
21B
76B
128
144
148*
160*
165*
U6
U13*
U15*
U17*
U21
U27
U32*

*These are currently in the process of being colonized by players. However, as a rule, new players may come into those regions regardless. It would mean you'd have instant connections with the player who has been there, and you could use this to build an alliance between the two of you.

Spoiler: Aedilred's list of NPCs you could take over

Show

METAL (four regions, orcs)
Ahmeskharras [formerly known as the Clanships] (one region, a splinter from METAL)
Razdis (two regions, dwarves)
The Sulvan Primarchy (one region, dwarves, vassal to Ashenia)
The Kingdom of the Isles (four island regions, spriggans and snow trolls, vassal to the Kingdom of the Carmine Sea/Salterri Imperium)
Niemida Prefecture (two regions, humans, vassal to the Salterri Imperium)
Nanguang Prefecture (two regions, vassal to the Salterri Imperium)
Propinlonge Prefecture (one region, vassal to the Seaborne Confederation)
Alydaxis (four regions, mostly lizardfolk, vassal to the Empire of the Silver Moon)
Glirfrey (one region, lizardfolk, formerly part of Alydaxis, split off for mechanical reasons)
The Kingdom of Stolok/the Planinfrag (one region, humans and orcs, vassal to Glazfell)
The Kingdom of the Iron Doctrine (three regions, Skaven expys, vassal to Glazfell)
Kemuliaan (one region, undead mummy-king, independent)
Abyssian Sea Coalition (two underwater regions, trilobite-people, vassal to Mularuhm/Salterri Imperium)
Alzeroth (one region, humans, vassal to the Hurosha Empire)
Fera (a few regions, vassal to Niskovia)

While Polar, 160 interests me immensely. Should I do dice rolls now or do i have to get approved beforehand?

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Originally Posted by Shadowz1797

While Polar, 160 interests me immensely. Should I do dice rolls now or do i have to get approved beforehand?

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You're welcome to do the rolls now so you know what you're dealing with. I should probably note in the spirit of Morph's list above that 160 is also currently being colonised, although it would in some ways be hilariously fitting for a new player to ninja the colonisation... As he says, new players claiming regions take priority over existing players' expansion in any case.

160 isn't actually a polar region (despite being cold) so doesn't have the same restrictions: it has three Good resources and a regular population. Only regions with a P before the number count as polar for mechanical purposes.

Information on 160 from when it was discovered: It has one [Good] resource of Malhanan Brew and one [Good] resource of Whispered Darkness. The majority of the population makes its home in a series of three city-states in the northern greener portion of the region which are run by three enigmatic meisters respectively. The meisters and their officials seem to afflicted with black tongues. The region has a population of 710,000!

As with 148 you're welcome to write your own stuff for the region and redefine the resources, although you might also like to build on what's already there.

Is the existing info for 128 on the wiki?

Think I'll go with 160 actually
*sorry to whoever i'm doing this to*

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Originally Posted by Aedilred

Information on 160 from when it was discovered: It has one [Good] resource of Malhanan Brew and one [Good] resource of Whispered Darkness. The majority of the population makes its home in a series of three city-states in the northern greener portion of the region which are run by three enigmatic meisters respectively. The meisters and their officials seem to afflicted with black tongues. The region has a population of 710,000!

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On the subject of these two resources, and other resources that are going to be mentioned in the New Map! section of round opening posts: typically only a name is given, and the player whose region it is or becomes is fully free to define the resource by the name alone. This typically yields some very interesting results.


EDIT: I've edited my above post in line with Aedilred's given info. I didn't know it was getting colonized. Is Moos also colonizing that one, or Randolf?

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Originally Posted by Morph Bark

Doom, I'd like to direct you to the Changing Rulers subsection of the Starting: Creating Your First Ruler:


The scores for any successors of Khoonbish would therefore be rolled for prior to assigning rolls to scores, and the two +1s would also be freely assigned.

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Originally Posted by DoomHat

This is a huge problem.
I mean, a really huge one. I rolled Khoonbish with the regular successor bonuses. I didn't realize coming up with a unique succession method would kneecap me like this. The fluff problems are already bad enough, being quietly scorned by royals lines and without any royal blood to buy or sell.

I took Regency to mean "In the event normal succession is suspended or disrupted". In the Case of New Crima, that would be if something where to disrupt the games, or if both the Tyrant and Champion Heir were to die at the same time. If there was some sort of coup that put a member of Parliament as the de facto most significant figure in the government.

I've put a lot of thought into the Game of Death. I might have if I knew the rules would punish me for doing so.

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It isn't a problem, I think. :smallsmile: It is situation for Chivalric Republic of United Free Cities, too. Such a rule allows the assigned rolls and bonus point for desired ability. For example, usual style of Free Knight is to have powerful [Military] and [Diplomacy]. So such a bonus is used.

In such a way, it can be decided by Doomhat the attribute of ruler. If Khoonbish is strong [Military] and [Diplomacy], such a +1 can be assigned, and the largest rolled dice can be assigned to these attributes.
Such a [Game of Death] can be used with this system.

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Originally Posted by Morph Bark

EDIT: I've edited my above post in line with Aedilred's given info. I didn't know it was getting colonized. Is Moos also colonizing that one, or Randolf?

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I think it's Sam, actually.

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Originally Posted by DoomHat

This is a huge problem.
I mean, a really huge one. I rolled Khoonbish with the regular successor bonuses. I didn't realize coming up with a unique succession method would kneecap me like this. The fluff problems are already bad enough, being quietly scorned by royals lines and without any royal blood to buy or sell.

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It doesn't 'kneecap' you very much.

Suppose I rolled a 2, 1, 1, 3 for my next ruler. I want a ruler specialising in military and curiosity for my nation which generally focuses on these aspects.

If I use my current ruler's son, then these rolls have to be used in order and despite likely having a 10 in both scores, I'll end up with D 2, M 3, C 3, F 3
If I use a ruler who is not my current ruler's child, then these rolls can be assigned as I like with an additional +1 in two scores. So I can use D 2, M 4, C 3, F 1

They both have their benefits and their drawbacks. Royal lines on average have slightly higher stats across the board I believe, whereas others you can have more control of.
I would also like to point out the rules explicitly state parents, so I highly recommend anyone with for example, a seniority line of succession keep previous ruler's stats in case it becomes relevant later.

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Originally Posted by Shadowz1797

Is the existing info for 128 on the wiki?

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128 is also in the process of being occupied, as it happens, though the player in question won't mind if a new one takes it.

Discovery information on new regions is generally in the round opening post where they're discovered (this thread) - as Morph says this is often pretty general and so doesn't tend to get reposted elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by TheDarkDM

I think it's Sam, actually.

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Yeah, for purposes of peacekeeping and such. It'd be interesting to have another neighbor in a space that I was not colonizing...

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Originally Posted by DoomHat

This is a huge problem.
I mean, a really huge one. I rolled Khoonbish with the regular successor bonuses. I didn't realize coming up with a unique succession method would kneecap me like this. The fluff problems are already bad enough, being quietly scorned by royals lines and without any royal blood to buy or sell.

I took Regency to mean "In the event normal succession is suspended or disrupted". In the Case of New Crima, that would be if something where to disrupt the games, or if both the Tyrant and Champion Heir were to die at the same time. If there was some sort of coup that put a member of Parliament as the de facto most significant figure in the government.

I've put a lot of thought into the Game of Death. I might have if I knew the rules would punish me for doing so.

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I'm working on some techs to help non-successions work well, and there's the new school tech from the Tris... It's not much, but it's a start. Maybe we could discuss some ideas of ways to make non-inheritance rulers work.

Until then, I'll work on my possible tyrant.

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Originally Posted by moossabi

...

:smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

*sigh*

Please ask Quinton for unexplored regions. I've had enough of my actions being wasted.

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Welcome to the wonderful world of being Guildered. This is your third time in this world, correct?

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Originally Posted by Morph Bark

Relax, you're nowhere near Guilder levels of thwarted colonizations (they number more than a dozen) and even if Shadow takes 148 you will still have a Great Kingdom very soon with 165. If he'd start in 148 his expansion options would also be far more limited than yours are with your acquisition of 165, and having a neighbour means more options for you to gain alliances nearby.

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Only a dozen? I need to go colonizing spuriously to rack up some mo--

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Originally Posted by Shadowz1797

While Polar, 160 interests me immensely. Should I do dice rolls now or do i have to get approved beforehand?

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WELL THEN. Ask and ye shall receive. Though that would make me laugh uproariously if it was the case... I support it.

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Originally Posted by Morph Bark

On the subject of these two resources, and other resources that are going to be mentioned in the New Map! section of round opening posts: typically only a name is given, and the player whose region it is or becomes is fully free to define the resource by the name alone. This typically yields some very interesting results.


EDIT: I've edited my above post in line with Aedilred's given info. I didn't know it was getting colonized. Is Moos also colonizing that one, or Randolf?

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Moos, Randolf, and I are all attempting to. Guilder currently has the edge.

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Originally Posted by TheDarkDM

I think it's Sam, actually.

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I have succeeded, yes, but there were other colonization discussions and attempts as mentioned above.

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Originally Posted by moossabi

Yeah, for purposes of peacekeeping and such. It'd be interesting to have another neighbor in a space that I was not colonizing...

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Yeah, it's kind of suboptimal for everyone in the region, but it does solve the problem effectively.

"Help non-sucessions work well"

Guys, the entire point of having a non-direct successor is the ability to decide which of their stats go where in exchange for them being much lower >.>

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Originally Posted by HalfTangible

"Help non-sucessions work well"

Guys, the entire point of having a non-direct successor is the ability to decide which of their stats go where in exchange for them being much lower >.>

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But the implementation is crap; it is, to put it bluntly, stupid that it is folded into the family tree - if the mechanics are balanced, there is no need for a further restriction, and if they aren't, fixing that is the solution, not slapping on a fluff restriction. :smallsigh:

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Originally Posted by C'nor

But the implementation is crap; it is, to put it bluntly, stupid that it is folded into the family tree - if the mechanics are balanced, there is no need for a further restriction, and if they aren't, fixing that is the solution, not slapping on a fluff restriction. :smallsigh:

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Okay, fine. But this idea (that the fluff restriction needs to go) is not the angle Sam and Doom are lookin' at >.>

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Originally Posted by C'nor

But the implementation is crap; it is, to put it bluntly, stupid that it is folded into the family tree - if the mechanics are balanced, there is no need for a further restriction, and if they aren't, fixing that is the solution, not slapping on a fluff restriction. :smallsigh:

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I'm not sure I really understand where you're coming from.

If your rulers are generally non-hereditary, their scores may be lower (depending on the particular attributes of a previous hereditary one) but that is compensated partially by the flexibility in assignation and also by the flexibility it gives you with their reign length: if you get a Piandao or dump a ruler before they've built up their stats you get a chance to roll up a fresh one with the same bonuses. With a hereditary ruler if you lose or otherwise ditch a ruler prematurely your next one pays the price. There are also technologies being introduced to give advantages to non-hereditary rulers.

I don't see why its being folded into the family tree is remotely a problem given that players retain almost complete control over that family tree. And if by some bizarre contrivance of circumstances you accidentally end up short of a hereditary heir the adoption rules allow you to introduce one (a feature of which players often make use). To an extent it probably depends where you stand on the gamist/simulationist continuum but the rules tend to prioritise simulationism where possible and that's kind of the standing presumption in the game given its nature, I think.

In reality I don't think the game was ever really designed to deal with non-hereditary rulers as a permanent state of affairs. The front page of this thread still says "In this game, you will play a character, a ruler of a region. And once s/he dies, you will play their heir and so on, continuing on the family legacy." Now, maybe that needs to be addressed, but that several players have adopted what under the rules is sort of a permanent state of regency suggests that doing so is a viable strategy even if the game wasn't designed for it and that there may even be advantages in doing so (as with the Triumvirate and being a tech factory, for instance).

It's also worth noting that plenty of people who have fully monarchical systems have had to re-generate rulers using the non-inherited system and none of them seem to have suffered any lasting disadvantage. If your ruler is in power for a long time, your starting attributes rapidly become pretty irrelevant. If you're burning through rulers quickly, the attributes of the previous one tend not to matter so much because they never high enough to make much of a difference to the successor.

It is perhaps unfortunate that Doom's succession system seems almost perfectly designed to fall through the cracks in the rules, but I'm also not entirely sure why it's coming as a surprise. In fact I'd always assumed that mechanically he had set it up this way on purpose...

The system is not necessarily ideal as things stand but I don't think it's all that bad, either.

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Originally Posted by Aedilred

~Snip~

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I think I was mostly in denial. "Surely the Regent rules are there for upheaval and discontinuations of the norm. Surely."

I'd thought of the previous ruler bonuses as a reward and legacy for having managed to cultivate a single ruler across a long stretch of decades, no small feat in light of assassination, capture in battle, or diehard dedication to holding to established fluff in my case. To me the "hereditary" bonuses feel like a culmination of all the sweat and tears of the previous generation.

Khoonbish has been an the throne long enough that there are a not small number of adult to whom Oluska might as well be a figure of distant legend. Their whole lives have been shaped by the enduring presence of their strange, unsettling, and generally not well liked Tyrant.

I feel strongly disincentivized from putting so much work into cultivating a given Tyrant if all their works mechanically come to nothing. Just another cog in the machinery of the government as a whole, rather then the omnipotent shaper and definer of an age.