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Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
I hate it when Vampires are essentially superpowers in media.
So its not even a curse, its a bag of goodies.
I don't mind changes to the mythos, but if your going to make them immune to sunlight you may as well just call them supermen.
Its a CURSE! If not obvious right now, but then very obvious in a hundred years. It should cause the recipient to suffer!
What are some of the worst examples of this in media (Excluding the one that starts with a T. Its like "the Cake is a lie" by this point").
Discworld has some of this, but its treated tongue and cheek, so no offence.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Most powerful vampires I can think of right now are in Hellsing. Alucard is ridiculously powerful in there. Indestructible, carries his personal army around in his body and tons of other goodies.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
I was under the impression that Discworld played it fairly straight, with vampires choosing to lose some of their vulnerabilities also losing some of their advantages.
In Twilight's case, I believe the author stated she didn't do any research on vampires and just made them up as she saw fit.
On other fictional vampires:
The Anne Rice vampires, with one notable exception, are under no illusion it's a curse. The exception is Lestat, who revels in his vampirism (even while retaining his vulnerabilities, at least pre-Queen of the Damned).
Similarly, you have the old World of Darkness vampires with various vulnerabilities, but only the really powerful ones losing the traditional sunlight vulnerabilities (the less said about the live action series, the better, which would definitely fall under your 'worst instances').
I'm not sure whether the Kuei-jin (oriental vampires) from oWoD would fall under your 'worst instance' category, since they're just basically weird.
Finally, there's the old Hammer horror films which sometimes use various old legends of vampires as their inspiration instead. In one notable film, Captain Kronos - Vampire Hunter, the eponymous protagonist spends about the first half of the film trying to work out which type of vampire he's hunting since "as many species of vampire as there are beasts of prey".
Another Hammer film (I think) I forget the name of, has a small family of vampires which are immune to fire and sunlight, but are afflicted by apathy and indolence (I remember they still retained other vulnerabilities, but I can't recall what).
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Originally Posted by
Eldan
Most powerful vampires I can think of right now are in Hellsing. Alucard is ridiculously powerful in there. Indestructible, carries his personal army around in his body and tons of other goodies.
I think there's a difference between 'ridiculously powerful' and 'ignoring all their lore'.
I've got no problem with accepting Alucard as a 'proper' vampire as rather than mope around bewailing his cursed existence, he revels in what he is and the power he has, with Integra barely keeping him on his leash at times.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
I hate it when Vampires are essentially superpowers in media.
So its not even a curse, its a bag of goodies.
I don't mind changes to the mythos, but if your going to make them immune to sunlight you may as well just call them supermen.
*couDraculagh*
Anyway, there is clearly one adaptation more terrible than any other...
Tomb of Dracula
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
The sunlight vulnerability, as far as I know, only came about with Hollywood movies. I can't think of any vampire legends where they are affected much by it. (Though they often only come out at night, so it might just not be mentioned).
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Friv
*couDraculagh*
Yeah. Im a total ditz. :smalltongue:
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Friv
*couDraculagh*
Not really. Taking the novel version, while powerful, he still has limitations (sunlight, inability to cross running water, must sleep on earth from his homeland, etc).
Even the Bram Stoker's Dracula version retains most of the traditional weaknesses, such as consecrated items.
The Blade version retains the sunlight flaw though (however his physical capabilities are significantly upped).
The Wes Craven version turns him into Judas Iscariot and makes his weakness hanging (and massive exsanguination), although retains notable depictions of vampire lore, such as knots and the compulsion to count things.
Most of the other depictions I can think of, plays it mostly straight.
Actually, there's the Sesame Street Count von Count - no vulnerability to sunlight, no requirement to feed on blood. About the only thing that makes him a vampire is the compulsion to count and his looks. :smalltongue:
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
What about Count Chocula?
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Brother Oni
Not really. Taking the novel version, while powerful, he still has limitations (sunlight, inability to cross running water, must sleep on earth from his homeland, etc).
Even the Bram Stoker's Dracula version retains most of the traditional weaknesses, such as consecrated items.
To be sure, Dracula was weakened by sunlight in the Stoker novel. He was reduced in overall power and limited to what I'm sure a particular Whedonian vampire would term "a few gypsy tricks."
Plus, in that novel, Dracula was pretty much a metaphorical cypher for other things first, and a vampire later.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
Discworld has some of this, but its treated tongue and cheek, so no offence.
the funny thing with Discworld is that any given race is "the toughest around" at any given time only when it happens to be the villain of that book.
werewolf are almost indestructible in one book..in the next it's trolls who are basically impervious to anything because fangs and such don't really pierce stone.. then the elves..then it's vampires who are tough enough to do untold ammounts of damage.. until they're eaten by a cat.
I don't know if it's even possible to assign stats to the various races as to determine who is toughest..because it chances depending on plot needs.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
There is a series of books called The Cleric Quintet. In the last book, Spoiler
Show
Kierkan Rufo becomes a master vampire.
Generally speaking the vamps are fairly standard, but the master vamp named in the spoiler can turn into green mist to avoid physical damage, can summon wolves, can create either vamps subserviant to him, or turn those he kills into zombies. He was even able to Spoiler
Show
take over the edificant library, pretty much THE holiest spot in lore at the time. It would be like walking into the vatican and declaring, "This place belongs to satan now", AND MAKING IT HAPPEN! He desecrated it so completely, even the most powerful priest of the main god the place was devoted to, could barely even use his holy power inside.
He was even able to stand up to daylight during the grand finale. Simply because he was that damn powerful. Oh yeah, he took at least one magical and blessed weapon to the heart, and proceeded to remove it from his body by forcing the arm of the person holding it to remove it. Said person was physically the strongest being not a vamp in the quintet, and he totally overpowered this person capable of shattering massive stone blocks with their face, while having a magic dagger in his heart.
All that being said, the lesser vamps had the standard weaknesses to sunlight, holy water, blessed items, but the master was basically able to either ignore, or just be somewhat weakened by any of them.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
dehro
the funny thing with Discworld is that any given race is "the toughest around" at any given time only when it happens to be the villain of that book.
werewolf are almost indestructible in one book..in the next it's trolls who are basically impervious to anything because fangs and such don't really pierce stone.. then the elves..then it's vampires who are tough enough to do untold ammounts of damage.. until they're eaten by a cat.
I don't know if it's even possible to assign stats to the various races as to determine who is toughest..because it chances depending on plot needs.
The thing with Discworld is that the villain of each book tends to just be the Worst Person out of their respective species/profession, and they tend to kick ass because of their attitude and Villainous Plan as much as their capabilities. Not to mention the needs of narrative causality. Also, most of the time when a particular issue is made with someone's species abilities, it's usually the first time they're introduced to the reader or the point of view characters, or the first time they're seen in full power mode, before the cynicism of the Discworld's general population gets its turn to figure out how to mug them.
On a different subject that's still not really on-topic, I always thought of Twipires more as blood-drinking animate statues than "vampires". Doesn't make the books any better, but...
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Vampirism is a curse, but not always to the one who becomes a vampire. In many legends, the vampire was essentially a possessed corpse, with no connection to the personality of the human when he was alive - the vampire instead existed to torment former family and relatives of the deceased. But these sorts of vampires were closer to "demons" or "zombies" than the modern vampire archetype.
Back on topic, I can't name any specific vampire story I hate, but I hate it when vampires are used as trite sexual methaphors or titillation - forgetting their other identities as cannibalistic predators and rotting corpses. Basically, everytime a vampire is treated with "ooh, how dark and sexy" instead of "Jesus Christ it's a disgusting monster trying to eat me!", I'll start rolling my eyes.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Frozen_Feet
I can't name any specific vampire story I hate
I can.. Twilight :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Frozen_Feet
Vampirism is a curse, but not always to the one who becomes a vampire. In many legends, the vampire was essentially a possessed corpse, with no connection to the personality of the human when he was alive - the vampire instead existed to torment former family and relatives of the deceased. But these sorts of vampires were closer to "demons" or "zombies" than the modern vampire archetype.
No thats totally also alright. Curse a city to fall to an vampire plauge: Cool.
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Back on topic, I can't name any specific vampire story I hate, but I hate it when vampires are used as trite sexual methaphors or titillation - forgetting their other identities as cannibalistic predators and rotting corpses. Basically, everytime a vampire is treated with "ooh, how dark and sexy" instead of "Jesus Christ it's a disgusting monster trying to eat me!", I'll start rolling my eyes.
It gets unbearable when they even start saying "Its US that are the monsters! The vampires just want to be wuved!"
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
I am fine with vampires as sexual metaphor, I am fine with vampires as superpower, and I am fine with different kinds of vampires. What I am not fine with is the manga "Priest", in which vampires were never human. They're just monsters that roam around in the desert or something. Underworld kinda gets a little of this nuisance from me too, suggesting that a vampire is just like a werewolf only bat instead of wolf, and not shapeshifting, and vulnerable to sunlight instead of silver, but somehow they're still both two lineages from a single progenitor. W/e.
Dresden Files has a pretty screwy vampire situation from what I hear. Supposedly the Red Court are actually these giant bat monsters who wear human skin as a disguise? And the White Court drink emotions instead of blood, but somehow this still kills people? I don't get it.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
It gets unbearable when they even start saying "Its US that are the monsters! The vampires just want to be wuved!"
I think that basically comes from people starting to use vampires as trite metaphors for sexual minorities, as opposed to their original "modern" role, starting with Stoker, as trite metaphors for sexual criminals.
And I guess it also comes from just a general use of vampires and other supernatural folklore lately as just people, but different. Vampires are alien, other, and exotic while still looking basically human, which inevitably results in groups of people either hating them or finding them obsessively fascinating.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
willpell
Dresden Files has a pretty screwy vampire situation from what I hear. Supposedly the Red Court are actually these giant bat monsters who wear human skin as a disguise? And the White Court drink emotions instead of blood, but somehow this still kills people? I don't get it.
Read the books and you will understand. It started out as the author essentially playing with all the different "versions" of vampires and throwing them all into the setting, and ended up working out really well in the grand scheme of the plot. It's far less non-sensical than it seems at first blush.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Nerd-o-rama
I think that basically comes from people starting to use vampires as trite metaphors for sexual minorities, as opposed to their original "modern" role, starting with Stoker, as trite metaphors for sexual criminals.
I'm comfortable with the idea either that vampires represent the seductive appeal of forbidden fruit or that they use sexuality as a lure to capture their prey. Any variation of the vampire sex motif is pretty cool with me, though presentation is everything.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
willpell
Dresden Files has a pretty screwy vampire situation from what I hear. Supposedly the Red Court are actually these giant bat monsters who wear human skin as a disguise? And the White Court drink emotions instead of blood, but somehow this still kills people? I don't get it.
I think Dresden Files does vampires pretty well. There are several different groups of them but all of them are essentially humans possessed by a different type of demon.
Black Court vampires are the classic corpse vampires, they are the most powerful vampires physically and magically but also the most susceptible to the standard vampire weaknesses. They are almost extinct ever since the White Court got tired of their **** and had Bram Stoker write Dracula to disseminate info on how to kill them.
Red Court vampires are blood drinkers. They are the most numerous type and basically farm humans for blood and converts. They look human but that is only a flesh mask they wear. Underneath that they are indeed disgusting, bloated vampire bat monsters. They also have a narcotic saliva that keeps their prey compliant.
White Court vampires are emotion eaters. They are the most humanlike of all the vampire types we know about so far and are consequently the weakest. Because they are so humanlike though they don't have to worry about sunlight or crosses or any of the usual things that off vampires. Each House of WCV feeds on a different emotion, House Raith feed on lust, House Malvora feed on fear, and House Skavis feed on despair. They don't necessarily have to kill their victims when feeding on them but it is apparently a much better meal if they do.
There is also a Jade Court but we don't really know anything about them yet. Supposedly they will be making an appearance eventually.
It's basically a kitchen sink way of including all sorts of different depictions of vampires into one setting. Personally I think it works very well. One thing it never forgets though is that they are monsters, even the sexy ones are Monsters with a capital M.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Monsters I agree with, but it annoys me when they have to be made by demons. Can't there be other kinds of evil that have nothing to do with Hell? The vampire strikes me as being very much a mundane terror, like an evolutionary mutant who preys on humanity so that we no longer dominate the ecosystem (and is in turn preyed on by something else, possibly werewolves, which in turn are preyed on by something still nastier). All of which doesn't necessarily make them supernatural, let alone extraplanar. Demons should be their own thing, not automatically having their fingers in all the other pies.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
I read a harry potter fanfic that made vamps the disgusting cursed wretches they are. First off, they are animated dead bodies. That means they rot. So unless they hang out in the desert, they get moldy, and nasty and eventually they fall apart. Thats the basis there for the "cant cross running water" thing. They are insanely terrified of getting wet as that will speed up their eventual death by rotting. Its not a huge help to whoever they are attacking right then, but toss a bucket of water on them before you die. That way they will fall apart faster later on. :p
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
willpell
Monsters I agree with, but it annoys me when they have to be made by demons. Can't there be other kinds of evil that have nothing to do with Hell?
Demon in Dresden Files is a pretty generic catch all term for bad supernatural being from the Nevernever who isn't fae. Hell has little to do with it in this case, although they do have their own demons in the form of Fallen Angels.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
In the Dresden Files, there are huge numbers of different supernatural creatures. There are three or four different creatures all called "Vampires" by mortals, but they have little in common and are not directly related.
Black Court Vampires are intelligent, rotting corpses animated by dark magic. They are extremely strong, vulnerable to sunlight, holy items and so on, they can create thralls, and they eat flesh.
Red Court Vampires are slimy, disgusting monsters that vaguely resemble bats. They can coat themselves in a human skin as a disguise, but physical damage or sunlight damages that skin. They drink blood, and their saliva is an addictive drug to humans.
White Court vampires look physically human, except when they draw on their power, which makes their eyes and skin glow silver. They are humans possessed by a supernatural creature similar to a succubus. They have the power to cause a specific emotion in humans (lust, fear or ... something third, I forgot) depending on their family. As long as you feel that emotion, they can drain your life energy, until you die. Fun fact: they run the US porn industry.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
I don't mind changes to the mythos, but if your going to make them immune to sunlight you may as well just call them supermen.
Complain to Bram Stoker then.
Vampires are monsters that prey upon humanity. Them being supermen is rather a return to form in my book. The curse was rather more existential to begin with, they weren't cursed to be pitied or punished or whatever, they were a curse upon their prey and upon your soul should you become one of them.
(Also most powerful vamp... probably Evangeline A.K. McDowell... Alucard is kinda lacking in firepower)
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Bayonet Priest
Demon in Dresden Files is a pretty generic catch all term for bad supernatural being from the Nevernever who isn't fae. Hell has little to do with it in this case, although they do have their own demons in the form of Fallen Angels.
That gets confusing sometimes but Dresden Files' Hell is pretty much just Fallen Angels. Demons are just evil or non-sentient and hungry monsters.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
No, Hell in the Dresdenverse does have Demons.
Hell = Demons and Fallen Angels. Remember Chauncy the informant demon?
Nevernever = Fae, Spirits and occasionally Ghosts (either of which can be more powerful than demons).
Outside = Outsiders (duh).
Any of which can be equally malevolent, though the only place you're likely to find something genuinely benevolent (to some degree) is the Nevernever.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
It's also worth noting that Red and Black Court vampires used to be human. The disguise that Red Court vamps wear resembles the human they were before the change.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Complain to Bram Stoker then.
You have been ninjaad and denied already.
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Vampires are monsters that prey upon humanity.
Except they used to be human. Thats my point.
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Them being supermen is rather a return to form in my book.
Not realy. Its part of the seduction, but its not just supermen.
Exactly what I mean.
I don't mind superpowerful vampires if there is a reason why they are that.
If they are meant to bring suffering to others I understand why they would need powers. If they are meant to suffer themselves then they should be cursed.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Gankutsuou which is an anime retelling of the Count of Monte Cristo sett in the 51st century made the Count into practically a vampire. Unfortunately it made him a worse character than the book. Sometimes trying to make something more cool only makes it worse.
It isn't a bad anime or a bad retelling of the dumas story but the vampire bits are just too much and not useful and thus detract from the story.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
No, Hell in the Dresdenverse does have Demons.
Hell = Demons and Fallen Angels. Remember Chauncy the informant demon?
Nevernever = Fae, Spirits and occasionally Ghosts (either of which can be more powerful than demons).
Outside = Outsiders (duh).
Any of which can be equally malevolent, though the only place you're likely to find something genuinely benevolent (to some degree) is the Nevernever.
The way I understood it was that Hell was a part of the Nevernever. Like pretty much everything barring the Outside is.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
I agree. Vampires have to have glaring weaknesses to balance their immortality and power.
However, I think it's okay if some rare vampires can ignore them. For example, in Angel (and Buffy?) there was that ring that let a vampire to walk in daylight and Warhammer has Abhoras, an ancient vampire knight who sated his bloodlust once and for all after drinking the blood of an elder dragon.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
You have been ninjaad and denied already.
Dracula ran around at daylight. Yeah he wasn't as strong (IIRC the only explicit mention was that he wasn't able to shapeshift) and had other weaknesses but they are not so remotely as crippling as the whole burst into flames from the sun that hollywood made standard. Which is what you complained about specifically. Old Drac's weaknesses were more just ways to ward him off, because walls and weapons wouldn't.
The whole bursting in to flames thing is a notion I'd be happy to have staked in the heart then get its head chopped off by a kukri.
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I don't mind superpowerful vampires if there is a reason why they are that.
If they are meant to bring suffering to others I understand why they would need powers. If they are meant to suffer themselves then they should be cursed.
Vampires are not meant to suffer themselves. Or not like that anyways, yeah maybe a little around the edges because all their power comes at the costs of "what really matters" or whatever.
Its all a big metaphor really, vampires gain power but in the "material" sense but what really matters can't be measured by superpowers so no matter how much they have its all dust in the end because they cannot escape the wages of sin spiritually.
There's suffering, but the suffering is of a deeper nature then "I'm a poor boy that can't go to the beach no more" thing so they don't need crippling weaknesses.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
I find it always rather funny when I read things like "vampires are..." "vampires can..." "vampires must/are meant"..
when it's quite clear that they aren't..they can't and they mustn't.. because..they don't actually exist. they only exist within the parameters estabilished by whoever is writing about them.
now we can call this person a moron if he's inconsistent with his own writing.. not if he gives the name vampire to something that doesn't resemble or adhere to the "rules" of vampires in any other named source.
we can hate how vampires with a pretence to have a resemblance to the "classic" vampire image (which is debatable in it's own right, if you want to nerd it out and you're particularily loyal to one source over others) are represented by one or two particular authors (I can't stand sparkly vampires)..but we can't NOT call them vampires in their own right.
the powers and weaknesses of vampires are purely subjected to the author's whim or plan.
provided the author is a decent writer..a vampire who is a descendant of the biblical Cain, one that has contracted it through a virus, one that was bitten by dracula or one who ingested something weird all have equal dignity
we should learn to accept this.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
I think the problem is, dehro, that there really isnt a rock solid foundation for vampires, but it feels like at least certain aspects should be, so when some author or movie director or whatever changes those basics, it offends people. Or its a matter of changing the general standards of what makes something a vampire too much, and then you might as well put horns on a swordfish and call it a moose.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Traab
you might as well put horns on a swordfish and call it a moose.
let's!
I see your point and I occasionally agree with the sentiment..each of us has their own pet peeves.. on the subject of vampires for example, I've already said it, I don't like the sparkly vapid ones...or the oversexed ones.
I have strong sentiments about what a dwarf or an elf should be and look like.
the one described by Eoin Colfer in the in the Artemis Fowl books just isn't a dwarf the way I see it.. I just have never bothered to make my case about it..because it's a bit pointless. it works in the fowl-iverse.
it's when people start quoting stuff as if it was a science book and speaking in absolutes that the whole debate kind of sticks in my throat.
but that's just me..I've been let down by enough authors who did stuff to things I love to picture one way and changed it completely..and gotten angry about it too...that I've kind of lost enthusiasm for the debate.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Depends on the vampire in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." They have very clear weaknesses (Sunlight, holy water, crosses, stakes, beheading) but they are fairly superhuman and can't be killed outside of those weaknesses. Most vamps don't care seeing as they essentially become demons, but the ones who are sane recognize it as a curse, but still may revel in it.
And apparently, all vamps inexplicably pick up kung-fu moves :smalltongue:
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Lappy9001
Depends on the vampire in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." They have very clear weaknesses (Sunlight, holy water, crosses, stakes, beheading) but they are fairly superhuman and can't be killed outside of those weaknesses. Most vamps don't care seeing as they essentially become demons, but the ones who are sane recognize it as a curse, but still may revel in it.
And apparently, all vamps inexplicably pick up kung-fu moves :smalltongue:
No vamp ever cares, except the ones who get their souls back. :p As for kung fu, I think its less they all know martial arts, and more that was the best way they could show that vamps are way stronger and faster than normal humans. I think vamp face and dust used up all their special effects, so no bullet time from the pov of the vamps. :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
dehro
I see your point and I occasionally agree with the sentiment..each of us has their own pet peeves.. on the subject of vampires for example, I've already said it, I don't like the sparkly vapid ones...or the oversexed ones.
I have strong sentiments about what a dwarf or an elf should be and look like.
My reason is:
Why use Vampires?
And you know why?
Its BECAUSE their vampires. The reason people twist and turn them is BECAUSE of what they are.
Its like this:
A Person creates a fork. But he wants to sell it to people who likes spoons. So he turns the whole fork into a spoon with a few spikes at the top and sells it to people who like spoons as a fork.
And the people who likes spoons are amazed as they love forks now.
But they don't. The reason they are attracted to the forks is because its spoons dressed up like forks.
My point is that the reason people are attracted to vampires is BECAUSE thier dangerous.
If they where Angels then their not interesting.
But in order to pander to audiences, they make Vampires near angelic and just call them Vampires so that people can have the attraction of the vampire, without the actual point of the vampire.
This is insulting in my opinion.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
so basically vampires are sporks?
:smallbiggrin:
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
dehro
so basically vampires are sporks?
:smallbiggrin:
No Vampires are forks.
TwiPires are spives.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
Its BECAUSE their vampires. The reason people twist and turn them is BECAUSE of what they are.
I would gather from your post its REALLY less about vampire weaknesses or power levels more about how they are portrayed in their stories then yes?
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Traab
No vamp ever cares, except the ones who get their souls back. :p As for kung fu, I think its less they all know martial arts, and more that was the best way they could show that vamps are way stronger and faster than normal humans. I think vamp face and dust used up all their special effects, so no bullet time from the pov of the vamps. :smallbiggrin:
Probably, but the best in story explanation was that given a modicum of talent in throwing a punch, and superhuman abilities, even a rubbish fighter would look expert compared to a normal human.
Though there was that one Vampire in Angel, the one he sired after he got a soul, he did care and was bothered by what he was.
But if there is one aspect of vamps that annoys me is the common thing where the vampire who "atones" is considered put on and hard done by when they are untrusted by the common folk. Like how Vampires in True Blood are used as a metaphor for oppression, despite the majority being viscous murderers at best. IT just bugs me that years, or even centuries, of murder and bloodshed are swept aside cos they feel bad one day. Not that the atoning vamp story is bad. But at times casual killing is ignored and that bugs me.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
I would gather from your post its REALLY less about vampire weaknesses or power levels more about how they are portrayed in their stories then yes?
Well the two are related.
Its not as much about the power as much as they are used as a device.
Change the mythos, change the levels of the stuff, but retain true to the core of what we have made vampires as a culture.
Don't exploit them to sell them to kids (We don't need blood. It just makes us badassier) or repressed moms (We don't need blood. It just makes us sexier).
Or whatever. Just do it with dignity!
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But if there is one aspect of vamps that annoys me is the common thing where the vampire who "atones" is considered put on and hard done by when they are untrusted by the common folk. Like how Vampires in True Blood are used as a metaphor for oppression, despite the majority being viscous murderers at best. IT just bugs me that years, or even centuries, of murder and bloodshed are swept aside cos they feel bad one day. Not that the atoning vamp story is bad. But at times casual killing is ignored and that bugs me.
This stuff probably bugs me the most!
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Dracula ran around at daylight. Yeah he wasn't as strong (IIRC the only explicit mention was that he wasn't able to shapeshift) and had other weaknesses but they are not so remotely as crippling as the whole burst into flames from the sun that hollywood made standard. Which is what you complained about specifically. Old Drac's weaknesses were more just ways to ward him off, because walls and weapons wouldn't.
The whole bursting in to flames thing is a notion I'd be happy to have staked in the heart then get its head chopped off by a kukri.
Vampires are not meant to suffer themselves. Or not like that anyways, yeah maybe a little around the edges because all their power comes at the costs of "what really matters" or whatever.
Its all a big metaphor really, vampires gain power but in the "material" sense but what really matters can't be measured by superpowers so no matter how much they have its all dust in the end because they cannot escape the wages of sin spiritually.
There's suffering, but the suffering is of a deeper nature then "I'm a poor boy that can't go to the beach no more" thing so they don't need crippling weaknesses.
"Vampire" can refer to any one of hundreds of various mythological monsters from around the world and books twice as thick as your arm have been written cataloging all the crazy variations that have popped up.
Claiming that you know the thoughts going consciously and unconsciously through the heads of everyone who's ever made up or added to these things going across about five continents and going back at least a few thousand years with perfect clarity is incredibly foolish. This isn't like DND where everything has it's own fantasy taxonomy and you can separate what comes from where easily so much as it's this giant muddied soup where the lines between vampires, lycanthropes, demons, and a hundred different more obscure things can become muddied beyond recognition.
Claiming they were always monsters without weakness or that they didn't suffer is ignorance of the highest caliber.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Eldan
Most powerful vampires I can think of right now are in Hellsing. Alucard is ridiculously powerful in there. Indestructible, carries his personal army around in his body and tons of other goodies.
But the abridged series is hilarious! Can't wait for episode 3!
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jayngfet
"Vampire" can refer to any one of hundreds of various mythological monsters from around the world and books twice as thick as your arm have been written cataloging all the crazy variations that have popped up.
I know all about them and its Bram Stoker that codified the modern vampire which was then taken by media from there. The combined weight of legend influence comes to barely mentionable.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Well, I mean if you wanna get technical and take the myth back to its roots, the concept of a Vampire comes down to a human who has undergone a transformation after their death that compells them to feed upon other, non-transformed humans, and ensures they cannot be destroyed by normal means. It's the same base concept as werewolves, zombies, ghouls, ghosts, and a hundred other things that go bump in the night, and they probably all connect back to cultural taboos about cannibalism and meddling with corpses and wandering about after dark by yourself, all of which result in horrible chompy consequences for you, and result in a cursed version of you returning to plague your home and loved ones.
So if we're being picky and saying that a Vampire must be a certain style of thing, what traits are we saying make a Vampire unique for modern culture? I think it comes down to them being specifically undead as opposed to being another species, or being humans infected with a virus. They do not age, and they wither and grow weak if they don't feed on blood. They do not go out in the sun, either because it kills them or greatly weakens them. And they are vulnerable to beheading, burning, or having their heart staked.
Then you've got the other magical powers that vary wildly from one story to the next. Transformation into a bat, wolf, or a mist. Mind control and hypnosis. Whether you need wood or silver to hurt them. Vulnerability to garlic. The inability to cross running water. The uncontrollable urge to count things. Weakness to holy symbols. Needing permission to enter a person's house. Lots of others, in all combinations of the above and more. And that's without even going into the concept of whether a Vampire is inherently evil and predatory, or whether they can be noble creatures that seek to help the helpless and fight alongside the Scooby Gang, or just show an introverted young girl how to love.
With all of that to consider, I think it's just as hard to pin down the best version of a vampire, let alone the worst. I guess Dracula and Nosferatu are the two most widely accepted, probably followed by Buffy the Vampire Slayer? But of course even those kind of jump around from one version of the mythology to the next.
I guess the worst by far has to be Twilight, by taking the "drinks blood" and "does not age" concepts and then discarding everything else before turning the predator into a lonely Romeo. But that's been said already.
Following that, I think it'd be Supernatural. I love the show, I do, but their Vampires are wildly different as humans infected with a virus that gives them retractable fangs and a thirst for blood, who can go out in the sun and are vulnerable to beheading or being poisoned with dead man's blood. If we're comparing those to traditional vampires, they're definitely a bizarre portrayal.
And I think another lousy one, again following the "vampire virus" concept, would be 30 Days Of Night. The vampires here are a weird blend of feral and intelligent, range from being impossible to kill to being slaughtered by driving over them with a tractor, and apparently being infected means that you turn into a vampire within an hour or two, which just seems... I don't know, wildly impossible to keep a secret? Every victim who wasn't killed outright would turn, the vampire population would explode.
Mind you, having said all that, I know one thing deep in my heart: I'll take Viral Vampires over Fast Zombies any day. Viral Vampires can at least be a clever spin on the mythology. Fast Zombies are just an awful concept.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
Well the two are related.
Its not as much about the power as much as they are used as a device.
Change the mythos, change the levels of the stuff, but retain true to the core of what we have made vampires as a culture.
Don't exploit them to sell them to kids (We don't need blood. It just makes us badassier) or repressed moms (We don't need blood. It just makes us sexier).
and why not?
the fact that you and I don't like it (don't get me wrong, I don't like it either) really doesn't cut it as a reason against doing these things.
simply put, there is no copyright to infringe or unified source of legend/history/tradition to refer back to. People are free to sex up their vampires as much as they want. The only way to avoid having your knickers twisted in a knot over this is not to read these "books" and sneer at them from a distance, like I do.
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Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
I know all about them and its Bram Stoker that codified the modern vampire which was then taken by media from there. The combined weight of legend influence comes to barely mentionable.
yeah.. no
Bram Stoker did his research and was well aware that there were plenty of "vampiric myths" and just chose the ones he liked best to suit his novel.. he didn't codify anything..he just wrote a highly successful novel which you are choosing to accept as only valid treatise/bible on the subject.
Your choice..but you can't expect everybody else to abide by it. (I prefer Polidori)
this sounds like those people who protest that Elves must be the way Tolkien described them or shouldn't be called Elves.. again, no.
elves pre-existed Tolkien in folklore and had as many different shapes, powers and sizes as there are populations the myth existed in.
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Originally Posted by
Tergon
I guess Dracula and Nosferatu are the two most widely accepted, probably followed by Buffy the Vampire Slayer?
honestly, Buffy may be a huguelly successful show, but it's way down the list of sources I would think of as "most widely accepted" representation of a vampire.
maybe that depends on either me being of the wrong generation, or coming from the wrong country...
we tend to forget when we say things like "everybody knows"....that that what everybody knows varies wildly over the centuries and even more wildly according to where everybody is, or is from.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
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Originally Posted by
dehro
and why not?
Cause I don't like it. THEREFORE ITS WRONG ON EVERY MORAL AND PRACTICAL AND OBJECTIVE LEVEL!
AND ANYBODY WHO THINKS OTHERWISE DESERVES DEATH
:furious:
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
Cause I don't like it. THEREFORE ITS WRONG ON EVERY MORAL AND PRACTICAL AND OBJECTIVE LEVEL!
AND ANYBODY WHO THINKS OTHERWISE DESERVES DEATH
:furious:
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Going back to the Dresden Files and derailing a bit, the White Court feeds on emotions, but why only those three emotions? Lust, fear, and despair? Why not anger, or happiness, or sadness, or jealousy? As best I can figure, them being motivated to "farm" only those three emotions seems to be solely designed as a way to enforce the "noir" genre.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dehro
yeah.. no
Bram Stoker did his research and was well aware that there were plenty of "vampiric myths" and just chose the ones he liked best to suit his novel.. he didn't codify anything..he just wrote a highly successful novel which you are choosing to accept as only valid treatise/bible on the subject.
Your choice..but you can't expect everybody else to abide by it. (I prefer Polidori)
Here's the thing all the other ones... they don't matter to vampires because they haven't had any kind of big effect on the completely modern vampire mythos.
If a Jiang Shi shows up at all its probably as a distinct type of creature. And you ask someone that doesn't know what a Jiang Shi is to identify say Hsien-ko then they will probably go with zombie. Which is arguably more accurate.
While major sources these days is the way the myth has evolved in pop-culture since Dracula (particularly Nosferatu) its the single biggest influence and why we even know the word vampire. There are others of course its the codifier not the Ur-example, but you don't see people endlessly bringing Varney to new media all that much do you?
Being older does not mean important. Leif Ericksson is an interesting footnote... but its Columbus that has the historical weight because its what got built on in the long run.
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this sounds like those people who protest that Elves must be the way Tolkien described them or shouldn't be called Elves.. again, no.
elves pre-existed Tolkien in folklore and had as many different shapes, powers and sizes as there are populations the myth existed in.
So help me elves either run as the fairy/fae type tradtions... or ARE much like Tolkien's elves.
They're basically separate creatures at this point, with one invented by Tolkien that people use to invoke Tolkien.
I'd say dwarves are similar... but dwarves are all the same.
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Originally Posted by
willpell
Going back to the Dresden Files and derailing a bit, the White Court feeds on emotions, but why only those three emotions? Lust, fear, and despair? Why not anger, or happiness, or sadness, or jealousy? As best I can figure, them being motivated to "farm" only those three emotions seems to be solely designed as a way to enforce the "noir" genre.
Given Madrigal its seems that the bounds are more traditional and/or personal.
I suspect though they'd only feed on "dark" emotions since what they do is dark. Also point out that fear, despair, and lust do a lot to paralyze the prey. Arousing anger would probably get a White Court beat up. And doubtful the underlying philosophy of the Dresdenverse lets them cause happiness.
Which can be seen to enforce the noir end, but I think how Butcher clearly strives to play with greys but makes it clear black and whites are still out there is worth mentioning... and in the end more important.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Here's the thing all the other ones... they don't matter to vampires because they haven't had any kind of big effect on the completely modern vampire mythos.
If a Jiang Shi shows up at all its probably as a distinct type of creature. And you ask someone that doesn't know what a Jiang Shi is to identify say Hsien-ko then they will probably go with zombie. Which is arguably more accurate.
While major sources these days is the way the myth has evolved in pop-culture since Dracula (particularly Nosferatu) its the single biggest influence and why we even know the word vampire. There are others of course its the codifier not the Ur-example, but you don't see people endlessly bringing Varney to new media all that much do you?
Being older does not mean important. Leif Ericksson is an interesting footnote... but its Columbus that has the historical weight because its what got built on in the long run.
You see, this is your problem, this has always been your problem in every argument, and it'll probably be your argument in every future argument because you never learn no matter how much you get called out on it but:
Nobody specified any damned time period or degree of importance anywhere. In fact, this thread was created with the idea of every source being important if it applies. You saying that thousands of examples don't count simply because they don't fit with your idea and a few other people's idea of a vampire is kind of galling.
I mean, Lief Ericson may not be as famous but he was damn well the first example of a westerner in the Americas that we know of. I mean evidence suggests that some Asian sources were aware of it beforehand but he's the earliest western source and I believe(though may be wrong) the first individual we know the name of to get there. Facts are not popularity contests and cited sources can't be disregarded because they don't fit your viewpoint.
Your entire argument right now is just "Every story running counter to what Scowling Dragon wants is the right way. Everything else doesn't count because it doesn't fit in my argument." and this is a terrible way to argue and would get you laughed out of any credible establishment. If I've misinterpreted you feel free to correct me but please, don't come in here and insult things we like with circular troll-logic and expect to be taken seriously.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
let me re-iterate.. Polidori.
also, what Jayngfet said.
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So help me elves either run as the fairy/fae type tradtions... or ARE much like Tolkien's elves.
They're basically separate creatures at this point, with one invented by Tolkien that people use to invoke Tolkien.
yeah.. no.. again. I can think off the top of my head of a good 6-7 vastly different depictions of elves.. and you can't just lob them in two main groups the way you've tried to do...because that's totally ignoring the differences within those groups..differences that are not just flavour or regional naming, but concern the very nature of elves..
and no, dwarves are not all the same everywhere..again, don't assume the western/american/pop culture to be the only one out there or the only one people all across the globe know off and hold into esteem.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dehro
let me re-iterate.. Polidori.
also, what Jayngfet said.
yeah.. no.. again. I can think off the top of my head of a good 6-7 vastly different depictions of elves.. and you can't just lob them in two main groups the way you've tried to do...because that's totally ignoring the differences within those groups..differences that are not just flavour or regional naming, but concern the very nature of elves..
and no, dwarves are not all the same everywhere..again, don't assume the western/american/pop culture to be the only one out there or the only one people all across the globe know off and hold into esteem.
This. I mean look at Rowlings House-Elves. You can't claim those aren't elves because they have a strong enough folklore background, while also being similar to dozens of separate but incredibly similar mythological beings from the same rough archetype from across the entire planet. Saying they don't count would be foolish, as would saying they're exactly the same.
The thing is, we never really hear Soras give any real metric for what does or doesn't count for this or that. It'd be great if he could give us numbers or sources, so we could get an actual discussion going.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jayngfet
The thing is, we never really hear Soras give any real metric for what does or doesn't count for this or that. It'd be great if he could give us numbers or sources, so we could get an actual discussion going.
not me, thanksalot..lol.. if you have enough sources (and we have the interwebz) you can make 'em say anything you like..and it will all sound un-counterable in your head anyway.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
I like my vampires as immortal god-titans living in the twilight and sucking out the souls of any who come near, destroying life by their presence and requiring at least siege weapons to take them down.
EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dehro
yeah.. no.. again. I can think off the top of my head of a good 6-7 vastly different depictions of elves.. and you can't just lob them in two main groups the way you've tried to do...because that's totally ignoring the differences within those groups..differences that are not just flavour or regional naming, but concern the very nature of elves..
and no, dwarves are not all the same everywhere..again, don't assume the western/american/pop culture to be the only one out there or the only one people all across the globe know off and hold into esteem.
Just out of curiosity (even though this is rather off-topic), what 6-7 "vastly different depictions of elves" are you thinking of?
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dehro
not me, thanksalot..lol.. if you have enough sources (and we have the interwebz) you can make 'em say anything you like..and it will all sound un-counterable in your head anyway.
Yeah, which is why you use sources, so people can read them and argue to the point otherwise. That's how civil discussion generally gets done, or should anyway, since then you're arguing about facts, or at least a hard set check-able thing, instead of just lobbing opinions around.
I mean when something can be proven one way or the other, you have an argument one side can actually win. It doesn't need to be your side, but it's something that progress can be made on.
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Re: Worst Instances of Vampirism in media
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dehro
not me, thanksalot..lol.. if you have enough sources (and we have the interwebz) you can make 'em say anything you like..and it will all sound un-counterable in your head anyway.
While this is somehow true, a source (and the goodness of it) gives weight to your argument. And the vast number of sources at our disposal, is exactly the reason why you should use them to support your thesis.
Edit: for example, now I could cite ^Jayngfet's post, as proof of ninjas' existence.