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General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Thread to discuss White Wolf's RPG Exalted. Talk about characters, homebrews, recruiting games, theory, why Abyssals suck so much, or where in the South you can get some gems without anyone asking too many questions.
Reynard's Sheets:Spoiler
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Solar, Abyssal and Infernal Sheet
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Name:
Exalt Type and Caste:
Anima:
Motivation:
Urge [If Infernal]
Background:
Attributes
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Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4
Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●
Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●
Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
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[Note: Place [C]aste and [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 28
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots, and Abilities can be raised to 5 without BP)
Archery
Martial Arts
Melee
Thrown
War
Integrity
Performance
Presence
Resistance
Survival
Craft
Investigate
Lore
Medicine
Occult
Athletics
Awareness
Dodge
Larceny
Stealth
Bureaucracy
Linguistics
Ride
Sail
Socialize
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Spoiler
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Backgrounds:
Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is],
fluff name
Important features.
[Source]
Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
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Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for valueSpoiler
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> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms
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Ability/Yozi
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:
Combat Stats:
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Join Combat:
Attacks:Spoiler
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Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3
Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2
Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]
Permanent Charms (Effects)
Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]
Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]
Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]
Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●
Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:
Intimacies:
Languages:
??? (Native)
Willpower: ●●●●●
Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) [(Permanent Essence x3)+Willpower]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Permanent Essence x7)+Willpower)+Sum of Virtues]
Bonus Points and XP:
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Bonus Points:
Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:
Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Lunar Sheet
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Name:
Caste:
Spirit Animal:
Anima:
Tell:
Motivation:
Background:
Attributes
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Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8 [9 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6 [7 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4 [5 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
[Note: Place [C]aste and [F]avoured tags, for clarity. Casteless do not get Caste abilities, obviously]
(Specializations +)
Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●
Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●
Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
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[Note: Place [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 25 [28 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots)
Archery
Martial Arts
Melee
Thrown
War
Integrity
Performance
Presence
Resistance
[F]Survival
Craft
Investigate
Lore
Medicine
Occult
Athletics
Awareness
Dodge
Larceny
Stealth
Bureaucracy
Linguistics
Ride
Sail
Socialize
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Spoiler
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Backgrounds:
Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is],
fluff name
Important features.
[Source]
Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Spoiler
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Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for valueSpoiler
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> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms and Knacks
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Attribute
Excellencies
[Charms]
Knacks:
Combos:
Combat Stats:
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Join Combat:
Attacks:Spoiler
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Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3
Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2
Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]
Permanent Charms (Effects)
Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]
Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]
Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]
Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●
Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:
Intimacies:
Languages:
??? (Native)
Willpower: ●●●●●
Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [Permanent Essence+(Willpower x2)]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(((Permanent Essence x4)+Willpower x2)+Highest Virtue x4]
Bonus Points and XP:
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Bonus Points:
Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:
Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Sidereal Sheet
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Name:
Exalt Type and Caste:
Anima:
Anima Power:
Motivation:
Faction:
Background:
Attributes
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Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4
Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●
Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●
Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
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[Note: Place [A]uspicious and [F]avoured (You get four) tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 35, with at least 15 in Auspicious and Favoured.
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots)
Caste Requirements:
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The character must have at least Awareness ••, Bureaucracy ••, Linguistics (Old Realm) •, Lore •••, Martial Arts ••, Occult ••, Socialize •, Stealth • and at least one dot in Archery, Melee or Thrown. There are additional restrictions based on caste:
Chosen of Journeys must have Athletics ••, Linguistics (Old Realm and an appropriate additional language) ••, Resistance ••, Survival •• and Ride or Sail •••.
Chosen of Serenity must have either Craft or Performance ••, Linguistics •• (focusing on eloquent speaking and writing rather than languages), Medicine ••, Presence •• and Socialize •••.
Chosen of Battles must have Archery or Melee •••, Athletics ••, Dodge ••, Presence •• and War ••.
Chosen of Secrets must have Awareness ••, Investigation •••, Larceny ••, Socialize •• and Stealth ••.
Chosen of Endings must have Awareness ••, Dodge ••, Integrity ••, Martial Arts ••• and Stealth ••.
Journeys
Resistance:
Ride:
Sail:
Survival:
Thrown:
Serenity
Craft:
Dodge:
Linguistics:
Performance:
Socialize:
Battles
Archery:
Athletics:
Melee:
Presence:
War:
Secrets
Investigation:
Larceny:
Lore:
Occult:
Stealth:
Endings
Awareness:
Bureaucracy:
Integrity:
Martial Arts:
Medicine:
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Spoiler
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Backgrounds:
Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is],
fluff name
Important features.
[Source]
Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Spoiler
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Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for valueSpoiler
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> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms
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Ability
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:
Combat Stats:
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Join Combat: 9 +1 Sux
Attacks:Spoiler
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Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3
Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2
Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]
Permanent Charms (Effects)
Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]
Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]
Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]
Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●
Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:
Intimacies:
Languages:
??? (Native)
Willpower: ●●●●●
Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Permanent Essence x2)+(Willpower)]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(((Permanent Essence x6)+Willpower 2)+Sum of all Virtues]
Bonus Points and XP:
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Bonus Points:
Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:
[B]Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Currently Recruiting Games:
The Black Walls of Jet
Unnamed Mixed Game
A War of Heresy
High essence game
There Is No Teacup
List of Previous Threads:
General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course.
Useful Links:
Exalted Character Repository
Props to Golentan for this incarnation's title.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
From the last thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SurlySeraph
Well, until that loophole is formally closed, we have evidence that Primordials can in fact become immune to their weaknesses.
Well, the thing to remember about the ebon dragon is that his weakness was his own deliberate fault the whole time, given that he literally invented the concept and embodiment of goodness so that he'd have something to pick on.
And possibly because he's incapable of doing anything without stabbing somebody in the back and he considers himself a valid and comical target.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
The Aidenweiss and Should the Sun Not Rise are indeed the examples I had in mind. The fluff is more proof that the Ebon Dragon doesn't know that either of those are options...because the Sun's death is already hypothetical territory. Nothing really changes. Holy no longer works, but Ebsie's Perfect will still fail in the face of functional Holy Charms.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GryffonDurime
The Aidenweiss and Should the Sun Not Rise are indeed the examples I had in mind. The fluff is more proof that the Ebon Dragon doesn't know that either of those are options...because the Sun's death is already hypothetical territory. Nothing really changes. Holy no longer works, but Ebsie's Perfect will still fail in the face of functional Holy Charms.
Wait, wait, wait. You're not done dealing out knowledge yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xefas
Wouldn't they have had to come into existence, as Primordials, with the Essence 10 charm that says "I am a Primordial", though? Which, coincidentally, also invalidates the existence of their mote expander and essence hopper?
I need to know things. I have conjectures. Reveal to me your brain secrets.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Wait... Immunity? Ebbie still suffers from his Greater Imperfection even if Sol is dead. The Yozi are never truly invulnerable. Cecelyne still has that whole "Imperfection against that which strikes the immaterial" thing, you can surprise She Who Lives then gank her, and Malfeas has more than one jouten which is not a city, so all you need to do is Heaven Thunder Hammer the Brass Dancer into Cecelyne and you're good to go (relatively speaking).
As for Adorjan... hell if I know.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
golentan
Well, the thing to remember about the ebon dragon is that his weakness was his own deliberate fault the whole time, given that he literally invented the concept and embodiment of goodness so that he'd have something to pick on.
And possibly because he's incapable of doing anything without stabbing somebody in the back and he considers himself a valid and comical target.
That's my point, though. Even the Primordial who regularly betrays himself can apparently overcome his weakness, so logically other Primordials can overcome their weaknesses, so a GSP who turns into a Primordial would have some hefty advantages over Exalts who aren't Primordials - and certainly wouldn't make himself weaker by becoming a Primordial. Wasn't that what we were arguing about?
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GryffonDurime
The Aidenweiss and Should the Sun Not Rise are indeed the examples I had in mind. The fluff is more proof that the Ebon Dragon doesn't know that either of those are options...because the Sun's death is already hypothetical territory. Nothing really changes. Holy no longer works, but Ebsie's Perfect will still fail in the face of functional Holy Charms.
Also because he has the greater imperfection, meaning anyone who has a single dot of willpower and a single dot of any virtue can force him to hemorrhage motes and/or has free access to perfect defenses against all his attacks.
Whereas a master of Crane Style can freely fold him up, feed him to himself, and pull him out the other end without breaking a sweat. Solo, with no fear of ever being harmed, or any expenditure of motes past their first action so long as they keep stunting.
Seriously, mortals can beat him up. It takes a lot of them, and they can't force him to stay down, but they *can* pound him flat. He's a pathetic, pathetic so and so. God I hate him. Not even the decency to be a terrifying villain.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
golentan
Whereas a master of Crane Style can freely fold him up, feed him to himself, and pull him out the other end without breaking a sweat. Solo, with no fear of ever being harmed, or any expenditure of motes past their first action so long as they keep stunting.
How does that work? It's been a while since I've had a good look at Crane Style.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primal Fury
How does that work? It's been a while since I've had a good look at Crane Style.
Crane style form: Any time you stunt, any stunt involving martial arts without a weapon, you can choose to regain a compassion channel. 6m.
Kindly Sifu's Quill: Using a compassion channel no longer costs willpower while in crane style form. Free permanent boost.
Ebon dragon: Attacks. I am the ebon dragon, muahaha, suffer and die as I eat this baby etc. etc.
Crane style master: Compassion channel stunt defense acts as perfect defense with no cost and no loss of compassion channels (1 spent 1 gained). Retaliates with compassion channel stunt offense: Ebon dragon loses massive motes/health levels, no cost and no loss of compassion channels (1 spent 1 gained). Also compassion gets added to the damage, and stunt dice are all doubled.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xefas
I need to know things. I have conjectures. Reveal to me your brain secrets.
I have three answers to the problem presented. One of them is absolute tripe (but fun!), one is elegant but completely unsupported by the fluff, and the third is a postulate extracted from what we know. In order:
1) There is no such thing as simultaneous. Events occur, one by one, albeit on an immensely small scale for time. A Primordial is nothing but their Charms, and so for a Primordial to exist, its Charms must exist. This means that there is a moment pre-Primordial wherein its Charms do not exist from a cosmological standpoint. How do we know this is a meaningful description? Solars, mostly, thanks to Primordial Principle Emulation. Say a hypothetical, Great Curse-free, time travelling Solar went all the way back to Time Not. He spends some time learning Primordial Principle Emulation...but it's like inventing the satellite dish when nothing's being broadcast. A moment afterwards...oh, let's say Adrian, the River of All Torments, bursts forth from non-existence. We know she exists; she is a being composed of Charms, and therefore her Charms are now viable options for PPE and our Solar buddy.
What this means for us is that the birth of a Primordial is a single instant--but nothing, as I said, is really simultaneous. Theoretically, a Primordial's existence DEMANDS (Primordial) Cosmic Principle. But learning that requires the purchase of the Primordial's First Excellency in addition to an Essence attribute of 10. We've got a Paradox--can't exist until Cosmic Principle (at least, in the sense of awakening as a full Primordial) and can't learn that without being, in some ways, a being with Attributes and other Charms.
So we have two possibilities: Yozi come into being fully formed, an utter paradox unto themselves OR a Yozi is, in some way, an ascended being who existed in some smaller, non-Primordial state of flux before burning their legend unto the stratas of reality. If they're fully formed...then they're story fiat already, as they lack causation. If they're ascended, even just from something we might call a Proto-mordial, perhaps a knot of Wyld Essence with crude shape and agency akin to a rudimentary raksha, then they could very well have developed Charms before reaching Cosmic Principle-status.
2) The first Green Sun Princes invented them; they've just reached quick saturation. Not terribly useful for the Primordials, but for their servants, highly covetable. This is a stupid answer, because Malfeas' expander is almost certainly the root of his "I have two Fetiches!" tree.
3) They're obsolete but foundational technology. Malfeas wanted two Fetiches, and when he reached into his cosmological principle and pulled out the first step in that, it was a mote expander. It's generally frowned upon for Charms to make earlier purchases obsolete, but it happens--especially when you're comparing an existence-altering E10 Permanent effect with an E2-3 Charm. If a Primordial came into existence as an E10 bearer of Cosmic Principle...then why even invent E2 Charms? You -can- start trees at higher Essence, but there is a heavy implication that the tree-structure of Charms is an inherent limitation that can't be circumvented: if you want this cool E10 thingy, it's going to have to build off lots of things...and even if your little subsoul motepool Charm is no longer 100% meaningful, it provides conceptual space and design space in which effects can expand and grow into something terrible. Additionally, we haven't seen anyone else's Cosmic Principle, and while all these Charms that define the Primordial condition will be similar across the board, I bet dollars to donuts that they're not identical. Malfeas likely has a larger mote pool than the Ebon Dragon. And I bet he can jump-start himself with upgrades to his obsolete mote-expander. Cythrea, for example, is supposed to have an embarrasing number of motes, but not much to spend it on--the freelancers have said that the act of Creating Creation was something on an order far beyond a single kilomote, and that Cythrea provided the raw energies necessary. This implies that her Cosmic Principle is different...or that one can retain mote-pool extenders...or that...
...well, the point is, we have no definite answers. But come to think of it, there is a fourth option.
4) Samsara did it. Saw Infernals. Wanted them to be playable.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
EDIT: Sidereal'd by golentan. By 6 minutes.
Crane Style has charms that let you recover a Compassion channel instead of motes when you stunt, and not need to spend Willpower to channel Compassion. Its capstone is a permanent Holy charm that drains the target's Willpower. The ED's perfect defenses don't work against Holy attacks, and channeling a Virtue makes defenses against him become perfect. So a Crane Stylist gets all the PDs he wants and the ED can't use PDs against him.
I suppose the ED could flurry a lot to make the Crane Stylist use a lot of PDs and so run out of virtue channels other than however many Compassion channels he can recover each action, and try to make more attacks per round than his target can recover Compassion channels. And I think there's some dispute over whether you can in fact recover an infinite number of Compassion channels a day with Crane Style. Ebbie's still in trouble, though.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SurlySeraph
That's my point, though. Even the Primordial who regularly betrays himself can apparently overcome his weakness, so logically other Primordials can overcome their weaknesses, so a GSP who turns into a Primordial would have some hefty advantages over Exalts who aren't Primordials - and certainly wouldn't make himself weaker by becoming a Primordial. Wasn't that what we were arguing about?
Primordials can work to make their Lesser Imperfections inapplicable, yes. Was anyone arguing about this? It's not really a surprise. When the Ebon Dragon sees Holy, he flees. When you find a way to fight Malfeas in a not-city, he recognizes his vulnerability. But the thing is, Primordial Imperfections are, by nature, larger and more exploitable than Exalted Imperfections. Given the choice between any one Solar Perfect Defense and any Infernal Perfect Defense, the Solar wins hands-down. Their Flaws are just out and out more difficult to exploit...and less iconic. But once an Infernal starts purchasing multiple Perfects, they get an arguable (and expensive) edge that provides them with redundant options. Sure, your attack might be Holy, but are we in a city/have I ever seen that Charm before? If yes, then you're in trouble.
Exalts -DO- make themselves weaker by becoming a Primordial...if your definition of a Primordial is someone with (Me) Cosmic Principle. They're throwing away the ability to layer those redundant defenses/access to Solar or Abyssal perfects. A GSP who's taken the Devil-Tiger route is still an Exalt, until they kill themselves and lose access to Yozi Charms other than their own. That's the important distinction: they're learning Charms of a Primordial who only tangentially exists, but they're still, for the important considerations, Exalts.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GryffonDurime
I have two answers to the problem presented. One of them is absolute tripe (but fun!), one is elegant but completely unsupported by the fluff, and the third is a postulate extracted from what we know. In order:
Why is #1 tripe? I like #3 better, but #1 doesn't seem particularly bad. Unless you meant "tripe" as in your explanation is delicious like sheep stomach, in which case that would make more sense.
Also, I like that your original post said you had two answers, you summarized three, and then you gave four. It seemed strangely appropriate to the subject matter.
Now I must ponder these things.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xefas
Why is #1 tripe? I like #3 better, but #1 doesn't seem particularly bad.
It had a much triper digression originally.
Quote:
Also, I like that your original post said you had two answers, you summarized three, and then you gave four. It seemed strangely appropriate to the subject matter.
Samsara failed math.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Ah, I missed that ascending requires them to give up Yozi Charms other than their own, preventing them from getting as much broad applicability. Are there guidelines that prevent you from having a very rarely applicable flaw, or a flaw based on a principle that you created by becoming a Primordial and that is thus very hard for anyone else to understand and exploit?
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SurlySeraph
Ah, I missed that ascending requires them to give up Yozi Charms other than their own, preventing them from getting as much broad applicability. Are there guidelines that prevent you from having a very rarely applicable flaw, or a flaw based on a principle that you created by becoming a Primordial and that is thus very hard for anyone else to understand and exploit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Broken-Winged Crane
The Charm cascades of the Yozis should be used
as an example of what is appropriate for this new
Charm tree (the majority of its Charms exist in the
Essence 2-3 range, all perfect defenses share a single
customized Imperfection, and so forth).
Well, sort of.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SurlySeraph
Ah, I missed that ascending requires them to give up Yozi Charms other than their own, preventing them from getting as much broad applicability. Are there guidelines that prevent you from having a very rarely applicable flaw, or a flaw based on a principle that you created by becoming a Primordial and that is thus very hard for anyone else to understand and exploit?
Tonberrian's got the right of it, but it's kind of in the same vein as:
"Is there a rule against a Solar inventing a Charm with an utterly inapplicable Flaw?"
It's Good Design being Good Design and Bad Design being Bad Design. A new Devil-Tiger Prince can certainly have a strange flaw, one that requires very real effort to discover. But the Flaw should still be roughly equal to those of the Yozi, in the same way that Solars will never invent a flawless, spammable 1m Perfect Defense that doesn't count as Charm activation.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GryffonDurime
Tonberrian
*gains a point of Limit*
Also, the Christmas! It's gone!
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
So, "The Song of the Shadow" is an Essence 10 charm that allows an Infernal to create Celestial (Solar-level, t'boot) Exalted. As many as they feel like, albeit only upon people willing to give up their free will in exchange for superpowers and not being a worthless dirt farmer anymore (I'm sure the line will be very short). This charm has six prerequisites, starting at Essence 6 and going up from there.
Where exactly would you put a charm for making essentially Terrestrial-but-using-my-third-circle-souls-instead-of-the-elemental-dragons-as-a-template Exaltations?
What about the ability to make, say, 100 shard-based Exaltations, but with the same level of power as Terrestrials?
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tonberrian
*gains a point of Limit*
...Quai? I am confused. Did I use UMI, then?
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Got it. Thanks.
Also, this conversation reminded me of another thing I loved in RotSE.
Spoiler
Show
The suggested possibilities for the Ebon Dragon's fetich soul, because they a) let all kinds of groups have interesting fights against it, even mortals since it can be totally pathetic by Exalted standards, and b) open up tons of plot ideas.
I especially like the idea of his fetich having really high virtues as a self-betrayal, particularly because my first thought on reading it linked into the aforementioned replacing-the-Unconquered-Sun issue. The King Is Dead can't be used to turn a demon into a god, but there's a Sidereal charm that lets you turn a demon into a god, so you'd just use that first. I can't think of a better way to torment the ED than to make his own fetich into a new UCS that's really good and loyal at its job.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GryffonDurime
...Quai? I am confused. Did I use UMI, then?
Custom Limit Break, dealing with capitalization.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xefas
So, "The Song of the Shadow" is an Essence 10 charm that allows an Infernal to create Celestial (Solar-level, t'boot) Exalted. As many as they feel like, albeit only upon people willing to give up their free will in exchange for superpowers and not being a worthless dirt farmer anymore (I'm sure the line will be very short). This charm has six prerequisites, starting at Essence 6 and going up from there.
Where exactly would you put a charm for making essentially Terrestrial-but-using-my-third-circle-souls-instead-of-the-elemental-dragons-as-a-template Exaltations?
What about the ability to make, say, 100 shard-based Exaltations, but with the same level of power as Terrestrials?
It doesn't make Exalted. It doesn't make Exalted -at all-. It makes Akuma...and really, the difference sounds naggling, but let's look:
Mortal Akuma gain access to "You" Charms from Essence 1-3. Being an Akuma doesn't let them gain any more Essence than usual, so reaching Essence 4 requires apotheosis into a spirit, which renders the Akuma-process invalid. Yes, you can create what are effectively infinite Half-Castes...but I'm betting an Essence 10 Solar can, too. At least until Mortal Akuma and Half Castes are beaten with the nerf stick they so rightly deserve.
Terrestrials...well, you can corrupt them, give them access to Primordial level Charms. It's an upgrade, but it's not quite creating a whole new class of Exalted, given that the Yozi already have this capability in setting and haven't been able to find all that many takers.
Making Exaltations...well, it requires more than just a Charm. We're not likely to ever SEE the exact process, because it is such a big mystery of the setting and we've slaughtered most of the mysteries to begin with. But it's a task of sufficient drain and difficulty that some of the most powerful beings in existence only did it once, to a limited quantity of individuals.
So...yeah. Not really applicable.
Edit: Akuma aren't really Solar level, either. Green Sun Princes are Solar-tier by virtue of having multi-Yozi access. Primordials are Solar-tier by virtue of infinite XP and Cosmic Principle benefits. Akuma generally occupy a level a half-step above their native tier.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
For lunar akuma at least, in terms of sheer numbers, they're almost definitely on solar level. Not quite the versatility due to the whole Urge thing, but powerwise, they're definitely up there thanks to now being able to access SMAs and SCS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tonberrian
Custom Limit Break, dealing with capitalization.
TONBERRIAN
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GryffonDurime
It doesn't make Exalted. It doesn't make Exalted -at all-. It makes Akuma...and really, the difference sounds naggling, but let's look:
The Lexicon bit in the Manual of Exalted Power: Infernal specifically classifies Akuma as Exalted. I'm not saying that point needs to be argued; just saying that that was where I was getting that choice of phrase.
(Also, as an aside, can you get Half-Infernals? I originally thought that Infernals just made Demonbloods, but I can't find anywhere in the Scroll of Heroes that says that Infernals don't just make Half-Infernals, complete with mortal babies learning Yozi charms.)
And I realize that making Exaltations is murdering more of the mystique of the setting and you Just Shouldn't Do It, and it's unspeakable taboo, and bad form, and bad design, and there are no actual guidelines, and that there are no actual guidelines for a reason, and that I should just let it go.
But still...educated guess? Wild conjecture? Psychotic ramblings?
(EDIT: This line of thinking is also how Solars got necromancy.)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tonberrian
Custom Limit Break, dealing with capitalization.
tOnBErRiaN Because I'm curious what happens when you Limit Break
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tonberrian
Custom Limit Break, dealing with capitalization.
If it's any consolation, I only did it because it was the start of a sentence.
With regards to Half-Infernals...we have no idea. Really, Akuma need to be entirely re-aligned to give us crunch that matches the provided fluff...fluff which claims that only Solar shards have the raw power to act as emulation-boxes for Primordial magic. But Akuma just throw that -all- out of whack.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kylarra
TONBERRIAN
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the glyphstone
tOnBErRiaN
rage
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gryffondurime
If it's any consolation, I only did it because it was the start of a sentence.
that's no excuse! all capitalization should bow to my needs! soon, the entirety of the world shall know my wrath, as my chirality prohibition index prevents anyone from even conceptualizing those intolerable uppercase letters, and the world will be mine! you will live to see the end of days, and you all will know that it. is. your. fault.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
So, more like Capitalization Prohibition Index. Which I'm defying in its very name. Teehee.
*runs away using custom Malfeas stealth charms, aka "YOU ALL GO BLIND UNTIL I'M NOT HERE ANYMORE."*
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Hey, guys!
So, since two of the players dropped, I decided to ask Ossa's player (from the Vampire game) to join. So, we'll be adding a Night caste to the circle. An assassin, ooh!. :smalltongue: And we're starting next Saturday! :smalleek:
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
I need to read Infernals again. And purchase BWC. There may be hope for evil exalts yet.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
infernals are like candy. delicious, delicious candy. the fact that they can turn other people into candy just makes them all the more sweet.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jokasti
I need to read Infernals again. And purchase BWC. There may be hope for evil exalts yet.
Huh? Wouldn't Abyssals fulfill that need just as well?
Plus, the fact that any type of exalt can be good or evil.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
You there!
Yes, you!
Run an Infernals game!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tavar
Huh? Wouldn't Abyssals fulfill that need just as well?
Plus, the fact that any type of exalt can be good or evil.
No. Abyssals aren't evil. They try to be, but they aren't.
And yes, I'm talking about the group as a whole being evil. Like, thematically. You know what I mean.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jokasti
I need to read Infernals again. And purchase BWC. There may be hope for evil exalts yet.
Are Infernals Evil?
Yes, you need to read Infernals again. They are the Everclear to the Abyssal's Thunderbird. In that both are disgusting, but Everclear is so awesome that it's illegal in 14 states, and Thunderbird is hobo wine. Actually, I think my metaphor has gotten away from me.
The point is that Infernals are awesome.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
I like Abyssals more than Infernals, though since I haven't read most of Infernals yet that may be unfair. And I may be biased since I love the whole champions-of-death theme.
Also, new avatar, by someone who works extremely fast.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jokasti
No. Abyssals aren't evil. They try to be, but they aren't.
Oh? Why not? I mean, they don't have to be, but they're very good at killing things/bringing and end to everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jokasti
And yes, I'm talking about the group as a whole being evil. Like, thematically. You know what I mean.
Actually, I don't.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jokasti
You there!
Yes, you!
Run an Infernals game!
I need BWC first. :smallyuk:
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SurlySeraph
Spoiler
Show
The suggested possibilities for the Ebon Dragon's fetich soul, because they a) let all kinds of groups have interesting fights against it, even mortals since it can be totally pathetic by Exalted standards, and b) open up tons of plot ideas.
I especially like the idea of his fetich having really high virtues as a self-betrayal, particularly because my first thought on reading it linked into the aforementioned replacing-the-Unconquered-Sun issue. The King Is Dead can't be used to turn a demon into a god, but there's a Sidereal charm that lets you turn a demon into a god, so you'd just use that first. I can't think of a better way to torment the ED than to make his own fetich into a new UCS that's really good and loyal at its job.
Oh, yeah, I loved that section.
My personal favorite idea, that probably has gaping holes in it, is that the Unconquered Sun himself is Ebby's fetich. The creation story of Sol and how it affected the Ebon Dragon sounds literally point-for-point like a slightly stylized version of a Primordial creating his fetich.
EDIT: It's five bucks, go mug a hobo or something if you're that hard up for cash. :smalltongue:
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
So... so he tries to kill, and may successfully kill, his own fetich? That's so Ebon Dragon-like I can hardly stand it.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thecountalucard
I need BWC first. :smallyuk:
i love my copy of the crane so much. best five dollars i've ever spent.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jokasti
You there!
Yes, you!
Run an Infernals game!
We need someone to run an Infernals game where everyone plays a Devil-Tiger, and they combine their powers to extract an Exaltation from someone without killing them, and then use it to go back in time and resurrect the Wolf That Devours All after the Unconquered Sun kills him, so that they can teach the Ebon Dragon the true meaning of friendship without putting new charms in his tree or killing his fetich.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr.Bookworm
My personal favorite idea, that probably has gaping holes in it, is that the Unconquered Sun himself is Ebby's fetich.
The most obvious hole is the part where they kill the fetich of the Shadow of All Things (who is the one who made the Unconquered Sun) to make the Ebon Dragon in the first place.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tonberrian
i love my copy of the crane so much. best five dollars i've ever spent.
Aargh, my financial stuff! :smallfrown:
Stuuuuuuuuudent loooooooans!!!
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tavar
Oh? Why not? I mean, they don't have to be, but they're very good at killing things/bringing and end to everything.
Actually, I don't.
My main problem with Abyssals is... they're Solars. Same reason I can't take drow seriously- the same- ONLY eVIL! And also more powerful, to make up for the fact that these guys are the same. And sure, they're good at killing things. So is every other type of exalt. Maybe hold the DBs. Basing an entire exalt type around something every character is expected to do, namely kill things, is ridiculous. It doesn't feel original. even Necromancy is like a mirror image or Sorcery, with a handful of things it can't do to compesate. Necrotech is kind of cool, but it's just death-themed Magitech.
WW took Solars, painted it black, slapped a new name on it and called it "evil". You might as well just play a Solar with issues.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tonberrian
the fact that they can turn other people into candy just makes them all the more sweet.
So Infernals are Majin Buu?
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by SurlySeraph
So... so he tries to kill, and may successfully kill, his own fetich? That's so Ebon Dragon-like I can hardly stand it.
The Ebon Dragon is the sort of guy who would stab his own leg to teach it a lesson, yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xefas
We need someone to run an Infernals game where everyone plays a Devil-Tiger, and they combine their powers to extract an Exaltation from someone without killing them, and then use it to go back in time and resurrect the Wolf That Devours All after the Unconquered Sun kills him, so that they can teach the Ebon Dragon the true meaning of friendship without putting new charms in his tree or killing his fetich.
The Ebon Dragon as a bubbly moe happy-go-lucky girl who gives speeches to the rest of the Primordials on Friendship and the Power of Love?
I can get behind this.
Quote:
The most obvious hole is the part where they kill the fetich of the Shadow of All Things (who is the one who made the Unconquered Sun) to make the Ebon Dragon in the first place.
Not all Yozis suffered fetich death. The Ebon Dragon is one who explicitly did not.
There's a developer's essay floating around in here somewhere about why that misconception got started, and why it's been perpetuated.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheCountAlucard
Hey, guys!
So, since two of the players dropped, I decided to ask Ossa's player (from the Vampire game) to join. So, we'll be adding a Night caste to the circle. An assassin, ooh!. :smalltongue: And we're starting next Saturday! :smalleek:
This reminds me, has anyone tried to stat out Ezio as a Night Caste? Even if it's just early-game Ezio where all he's got are two hidden blades, a short sword, a long sword and some throwing knives.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kris Strife
Actually...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr.Bookworm
Not all Yozis suffered fetich death. The Ebon Dragon is one who explicitly did not.
There's a developer's essay floating around in here somewhere about why that misconception got started, and why it's been perpetuated.
Ah, okay. That'd be an interesting read. Was it part of Ink Monkeys or was it just on the Exalted forum somewhere?
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jokasti
My main problem with Abyssals is... they're Solars. Same reason I can't take drow seriously- the same- ONLY eVIL! And also more powerful, to make up for the fact that these guys are the same. And sure, they're good at killing things. So is every other type of exalt. Maybe hold the DBs. Basing an entire exalt type around something every character is expected to do, namely kill things, is ridiculous. It doesn't feel original. even Necromancy is like a mirror image or Sorcery, with a handful of things it can't do to compesate. Necrotech is kind of cool, but it's just death-themed Magitech.
WW took Solars, painted it black, slapped a new name on it and called it "evil". You might as well just play a Solar with issues.
I see your point, but Solars don't have nearly as much hierarchy oppressing them, or have to think about getting out from under anyone's thumbs; they're usually the most powerful and independent people they know after they Exalt, instead of being chosen to be cogs in the plans of stronger beings. Despite the Great Curse, Solars also don't tend to get psyche-wrecking problems like "My wife died because I petted too many kittens."
Solars have the whole theme of boundless possibility and optimism. Abyssals aren't GRIMDARK opposites; they have lots of very difficult obstacles that they *can* overcome, raising interesting themes of compromise and acceptance, like how much you're willing to suffer through to do what you believe is the right thing or how you can rationalize going along with Oblivion.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SurlySeraph
I see your point, but Solars don't have nearly as much hierarchy oppressing them, or have to think about getting out from under anyone's thumbs; they're usually the most powerful and independent people they know after they Exalt, instead of being chosen to be cogs in the plans of stronger beings. Despite the Great Curse, Solars also don't tend to get psyche-wrecking problems like "My wife died because I petted too many kittens."
Solars have the whole theme of boundless possibility and optimism. Abyssals aren't GRIMDARK opposites; they have lots of very difficult obstacles that they *can* overcome, raising interesting themes of compromise and acceptance, like how much you're willing to suffer through to do what you believe is the right thing or how you can rationalize going along with Oblivion.
They're oppressed? Can we scream "whiney emo" any more, please?
I do like the oppression, though. Deathlords were a novel touch, and interesting pieces of the puzzle. And Abyssals aren't supposed to want to pet kittens, since they're cute and fluffy. And the only wives they would be getting are political moves they don't care about anyway, since what is caring in this bleak, depressing world?
Abyssals have obstacles just like every other type of exalt. Solars, Lunars, and Terrestrials all have to deal with the Scarlet empire, Siddies get to worry about Yu-Shan, and Infernals Malfeas.
Their only redeeming quality for me is that if they have the heart to put down their hummingbird-blood inkpen and beat poetry book they can become Curse-less Solars.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xefas
I think that might be a better example of an Akuma. :smalltongue:
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kris Strife
I think that might be a better example of an Akuma. :smalltongue:
Yes, absolutely. But you asked if "Infernals are Majin Buu".
Green Sun Princes can make akuma.
Tiny yellow man uses Majin Buu's power to make Vegeta into an akuma.
Vegeta is then an akuma.
It supports your theory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jokasti
They're oppressed? Can we scream "whiney emo" any more, please?
I'm just gonna throw this out there: I think it's what the Immaculates use to teach new trainees how to distinguish the differences between the various Solar types.
I like to think the Immaculates use a lot of Led Zeppelin and Metallica iconography in their training programs.
(Somewhere, The Rose Dragon is gaining resonance.)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Do the Immaculates even acknowledge the difference between Solars and Abyssals? I thought they filed them all under the same names.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SurlySeraph
Do the Immaculates even acknowledge the difference between Solars and Abyssals? I thought they filed them all under the same names.
They do file them all under "Anathema". I was making a joke.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Oh, a joke. Those go through the Division of Serenity. I'll need you to fill out these forms and run them to the Cerulean Lute of Harmony before I'm authorized to laugh.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Okay, I'm going insane, and I have to ask.
Would anyone be willing to run a DB game? I've got a hankering to play an Immaculate martial artist and every game I'm in dies and leaves me sitting alone in an empty forum going "guys? Guys? I gave you a million chances beforehand to say you couldn't handle this, so I find the 17th iteration of 'midterms are harder than I thought' kind of unpalatable."
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xefas
Ah, okay. That'd be an interesting read. Was it part of Ink Monkeys or was it just on the Exalted forum somewhere?
Found it!
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
I take it my post got a bit buried in the earlier discussion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ShadowFighter15
This reminds me, has anyone tried to stat out
Ezio as a Night Caste? Even if it's just early-game Ezio where all he's got are two hidden blades, a short sword, a long sword and some throwing knives.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr.Bookworm
That is kinda interesting. So, the only confirmed fetich kills are Malfeas, Adorjan, and Szorney - but the other Yozi are different from their pre-War selves because they lost plain ol' Third Circle Souls. That does make the Unconquered Sun creation story quite spooky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ShadowFighter15
I take it my post got a bit buried in the earlier discussion?
Alright. I googled [Ezio "Night Caste"] and got five hits. One was this thread, three of them didn't seem like useful hits, but one of them was this thread on the Exalted forums where they muse on statting up the assassins from Assassin's Creed.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xefas
That is kinda interesting. So, the only confirmed fetich kills are Malfeas, Adorjan, and Szorney - but the other Yozi are different from their pre-War selves because they lost plain ol' Third Circle Souls. That does make the Unconquered Sun creation story quite spooky.
I think that Kimberry may have been confirmed as losing a fetich in CoCD: Malfeas, in Madelrada's entry.