Trissociate [3.5 Base Class] (PEACH)

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Originally Posted by LordofBones

Otherwise, nice.

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Originally Posted by MammonAzrael

It is a find monster of a class sir.

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Originally Posted by Roger3

This is an awesome class.

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Thank you all. :smallbiggrin:

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Originally Posted by MammonAzrael

Where's the capstone? Some, but not all associations offer capstones. I believe that all classes need a good capstone

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I'll see what I can do. For the casting/manifesting/binding classes, their capstone is access to their 9th level spells/powers. Unfortunately some base Classes (I'm looking at you Paladin, Rogue and Ranger) don't offer much in the way of Capstones.

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Originally Posted by Roger3

This is an awesome class. Quick thing though: The table under the half fiend association is labeled as half celestial.

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Thanks for pointing that out. Let me know if you spot any other errors.

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Originally Posted by Roger3

Also is the spellbook for the wizard automatic?

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It *should* be, since a level 1 Wizard with the suggested starting gold, is otherwise too poor to afford even a blank spellbook. I should make a note of it for the Wizard and Archivist.

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Originally Posted by LordofBones

No Shadowcaster Association?

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Originally Posted by MammonAzrael

Also, where's the Truenaming!? :smalltongue: (If you do add it, I'd use Kellus' excellent fix for Truenaming)

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Shadowcasting and Truenaming both suffer from "JeminiZero-knows-nothing-about-them" syndrome, much like Incarnum.*

*If you are wondering why I know about Binding but not Shadowcasting and Truenaming, you can blame Silverclawshift for it.

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Originally Posted by JeminiZero

I'll see what I can do. For the casting/manifesting/binding classes, their capstone is access to their 9th level spells/powers. Unfortunately some base Classes (I'm looking at you Paladin, Rogue and Ranger) don't offer much in the way of Capstones.

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While there aren't great official ideas, I know that rewrites will often have some solid high level options to help inspire you. Jiriku's done some great work on that front, and I know I've seen several more at least.

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Originally Posted by JeminiZero

Shadowcasting and Truenaming both suffer from "JeminiZero-knows-nothing-about-them" syndrome, much like Incarnum.*

*If you are wondering why I know about Binding but not Shadowcasting and Truenaming, you can blame Silverclawshift for it.

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Well, the guides I know of for both systems assume you've read the original material, so I don't have any great suggestions for quick ways to read up on them. But all three are full of great flavor and worth reading if/when you've got the time.

Added damage reduction to some of the half-blood associations. Let me know if it looks balanced.

Also, added a half-plant Association, based on the Woodling from MM3.

JeminiZero: Since this is a bit of a monster to read through everything, I'm guessing I missed it somewhere along the way, but two questions.

-If the sample character is using Dragon Shaman, why doesn't it have any of the Shaman's class features listed in the table, and it mentions the gaining of spells, but I don't see where the Shaman gains those spells.

-Also is the only difference between Primary and Secondary, the -1 to level?

Alright, major revision, now I've included starting abilities so that a level 1 Trissociate isn't entirely gimped.

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Originally Posted by mrcarter11

-If the sample character is using Dragon Shaman, why doesn't it have any of the Shaman's class features listed in the table, and it mentions the gaining of spells, but I don't see where the Shaman gains those spells.

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That would be my bad. :smalltongue: Its supposed to be a wizard secondary association (since it is a ninja wizard and all)

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Originally Posted by mrcarter11

-Also is the only difference between Primary and Secondary, the -1 to level?

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Pretty much yes. To clarify, Secondary gets most class features one level later than primary. But it does not affect the strength of class features once they are obtained. The specific example being spells, where its caster level is tied to trissociate level, and ignores whether it was obtained from primary or secondary.

Reworded some of the rules to make starter abilities clearer.

Gave the half-blood associations the option of recovering their spell like abilities.

Revised progression of Half-Dragon breath so that its weaker at low levels and stronger at higher levels.

Added Soulknife association under Psionics (yes, I know, its arguably not psionic at all).

Me likes it!

I was going to play a Chameleon on the new game I'll start, but now I'll try to convince my DM to let me play this.

Cool! Let me know if you need help with anything. :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by Pyromancer999

Three Associations I think would be interesting, if they could be managed:

-Incarnum
-Bloodline-Based
-Monster-Class-Based

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I made up an Incarnum one for ya. =)


Incarnum Association

Incarnum Association Progression (Based on Associate Level)
{table]Level | Soulmelds | Essentia | Chakra Binds | Special
Starter | 1 | 0 | 0 | Incarnum Skills, Shaping Discipline, Limited Meldshaping, Aligned Soulmelds (Gear only)
01 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
03 | 1 | 1 | 0 | Rapid Meldshaping 1/day (Gear only) or Totem's Protection (Wild only)
05 | 2 | 2 | 0 |
07 | 2 | 3 | 1 | Open Chakra (Crown, Hands, Feet), Open Chakra (Totem) (Wild only)
09 | 3 | 4 | 1 |
11 | 3 | 5 | 1 | Open Chakra (Arms, Brow, Shoulders), Rebind Soulmeld 1/day (Gear only)
13 | 4 | 6 | 2 |
15 | 4 | 7 | 2 | Open Chakra (Throat, Waist)
17 | 5 | 8 | 2 |
19 | 5 | 10 | 3 | Open Chakra (Heart)[/table]

Incarnum Skills: Add Spellcraft to your Trissociate class skill list.

Shaping Discipline: When you take this Association, you must decide if your soulmelds will be based more on adventurers' gear (like those of an Incarnate or Soulborn), or on magical beasts found in the wild (like a Totemist). This choice determines the list of soulmelds that you can shape, as well as some of the class features offered by this Association. A follower of the Gear discipline has access to the Incarnate and Soulborn lists of soulmelds, while a follower of the Wild has access to the Totemist list.

Meldshaping and Chakra Binds: See the Incarnate and Totemist entries in the Magic of Incarnum book for details on meldshaping and chakra binds. The number of soulmelds, chakra binds, and essentia you have access to are given in the table above, along with the Associate levels where you unlock the different chakras. You never gain the ability to bind a soulmeld to your soul chakra, and you only unlock the Totem chakra if you chose the Wild discipline.

Aligned Soulmelds: This functions as the Incarnate ability of the same name. Only followers of the Gear discipline get this ability.

Limited Meldshaping: Your starter ability is a single soulmeld, chosen from those available to your shaping discipline. When you shape your soulmeld each day, it can only be that specific one you chose. These restrictions are removed when you reach Incarnum Associate level 1, allowing you to shape any soulmelds from your list, as normal for a meldshaper. If Incarnum is your primary Association, then these restrictions never take effect at all, even at Trissociate level 1.

Rapid Meldshaping (Su): This functions as the Incarnate ability of the same name. Only followers of the Gear discipline get this ability.

Totem's Protection (Ex): This functions as the Totemist ability of the same name. Only followers of the Wild discipline get this ability.

Rebind Soulmeld (Su): At Associate level 11, a follower of the Gear discipline can unbind a soulmeld from a chakra and bind another one instead. The new soulmeld to be bound must be one you already have shaped, and you must be able to bind soulmelds to the chakra it occupies (you must have the chakra unlocked, and it can't have a soulmeld bound to it already unless you have a feat or other effect that allows you to bind two soulmelds to that chakra at once). This requires a full-round action that provokes attack of opportunity, and can be used once per day.

It should not get the heart bind, the Heart and Soul binds are the two strongest binds and require an epic feat to obtain if you don't get them from your class, which tells ya that both are pretty potent. I say leave it at the greater chakras and give something else in place of the heart chakra

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Originally Posted by EdroGrimshell

It should not get the heart bind, the Heart and Soul binds are the two strongest binds and require an epic feat to obtain if you don't get them from your class, which tells ya that both are pretty potent. I say leave it at the greater chakras and give something else in place of the heart chakra

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Actually, I put the Heart chakra there to try to inflate its importance. They could take it at 21st level as a feat, anyway (admittedly, with a high Constitution requirement) - but I wouldn't! Have you seen the Heart binds? The disciplines I wrote up would each get four options for binding to the Heart, and here's a breakdown:

Gear discipline: use Lifebond Vestments more than once an hour per target (healing roughly the amount of a same-leveled Cleric casting Cure Critical Wounds, but you take half the damage yourself), become immune to energy drain attacks and death effects (in other words, most of a Death Ward spell), become immune to four spells of your choice that are 6th level or lower (a pumped-up Spell Immunity, kinda cool), or become immune to stunning and death effects (I'm not up-to-date on anti-stun effects, all I can think of is one of the Third-Eye magic items... Useful if you're fighting a monk, I guess. And you need to be evil to shape this one).

Wild discipline: have a constant Blink spell you can turn on and off (neat, but not exactly a high-level spell), get your level in rounds of Ethereal Jaunt that you can ration each day (much higher-level spell equivalent than most of these, I'll admit), get DR 5/magic that increases by 1 for each Essentia invested (if you're level 19 and fighting enemies who are stymied by DR 9/magic, you'll need to make Will saves to not waste your turns laughing at them), or spell resistance 5 +4 per Essentia invested (y'know that Heart bind that Gear followers get that acts as a superior Spell Immunity? This spell resistance is what they get WITHOUT binding it to anything! They can get this SR at level 1! It can be their STARTER soulmeld if they want!).


So... A couple nifty effects, but at Associate level 19, I say "take 'em!" Most of them just save a near-Epic party from casting a 3rd- or 4th-level spell, with only the beefy Spell Immunity and the Ethereal Jaunt standing out. And I think those make fine capstones. =)

This is amazing.

I'd like to leave it at that, but (sorry if someone already mentioned this) it'd be cool to see a binding and shadowcasting association.

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Originally Posted by Midwoka

I made up an Incarnum one for ya. =)

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Thanks. :smallsmile: Sadly, I'm not privy enough to the ways of Incarnum to tell if its balanced. I will add a link for it in the appropriate subsection.

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Originally Posted by Vilpich

I'd like to leave it at that, but (sorry if someone already mentioned this) it'd be cool to see a binding and shadowcasting association.

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There is a Binder associate already. Its not hidden in spoiler boxes, so you should be able find it using a simple search-the-webpage. I might get around to reading Shadowcasting and Truenaming one of these days. Maybe.

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Originally Posted by JeminiZero

Thanks. :smallsmile: Sadly, I'm not privy enough to the ways of Incarnum to tell if its balanced. I will add a link for it in the appropriate subsection.



There is a Binder associate already. Its not hidden in spoiler boxes, so you should be able find it using a simple search-the-webpage. I might get around to reading Shadowcasting and Truenaming one of these days. Maybe.

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Whoops. I'm stupid. And I told myself I wouldn't be the guy who always gets referred back to the original post :smallfrown:

As to incarnum, I'd say it's among the best balanced systems in the game (except for the soulborn, but it's easy to fix).

Don't do truenaming. Please. It's terrible.

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Originally Posted by JeminiZero

Oh, you mean these bloodlines. Looking through them, even the Major ones aren't stronger than the half-fey. You could probably substitute any major bloodline with one Association (minus Bloodline levels) and it would probably work.

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Forgot to note this earlier (a lot earlier), but Pyro linked to Welknair's homebrew ones, which are generally stronger than those ones and actually work better than the original ones. If you were to use his homebrew ones you'd have a number of additional Associations to use.

I've added a bit on taking a Major Bloodline in place of an Association. But it seems to me that most Major Bloodlines are not nearly as strong as the current associations.

I think a Bloodline-based association could use a boost by combining a Major and an Intermediate Bloodline (barring the major question on how that mixture of genetics came about).

Thoughts?

My only thoughts were;
*drooooool*

due to my shock-gasm.
So much stuff.

And every bit that I could read was very superb.
But my brain is now overstuffed from too much reading on one thing. I'll just be bookmarking it to take it all in in stages.

Added a Practiced Trissociate feat. Added another Sample Trissociate emulating an Angel with Savage Species progression.

Incidentally, can anyone suggest a better picture for the angel?

Also, still hoping for some input on Bloodlines.

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Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil

My only thoughts were;
*drooooool*

due to my shock-gasm.
So much stuff.

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Haha, thank you. Take your time, it is quite large. :smallbiggrin:

Well, on bloodlines, if you're using Welknair's homebrew ones (which are not overpowered, just better than the SRD ones which suck to all holy heaven) I'd say just let one per association. He's already got a class based on his bloodlines (the blood king) and it's a fairly well balanced class so having a single bloodline as an association should be fine. However, if you use the SRD ones, i'd say 2 at once (both Major) because of how bad they are on their own. Honestly, they suck in the SRD, which is why Welknair made those bloodlines that he did, they're better and more balanced for what you normally give up (in the Trissociate you actually give up more in a sense).

I'd love to see an all trissociate game, since this system can be basically self contained.

Is there an artificer option anywhere?

I'd love to see an all trissociate game, since this system can be basically self contained.

A few associations that you might want to add: Dragonfire adept, artificer, and definitely marshal.

Big Update! I have added the basic outline for Totemists and Incarnates. Also for those who want to play an Eldrith Abomination, the Half-Farspawn might be what you are looking for!

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Originally Posted by EdroGrimshell

Well, on bloodlines, if you're using Welknair's homebrew ones (which are not overpowered, just better than the SRD ones which suck to all holy heaven) I'd say just let one per association.

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Right. I've updated the rules for using a bloodline as an Association.

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Originally Posted by Vilpich

I'd love to see an all trissociate game, since this system can be basically self contained.

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I would love to see one too. :smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Vilpich

A few associations that you might want to add: Dragonfire adept, artificer, and definitely marshal.

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Dragonfire adept can be emulated to some degree by going Half-Dragon + Invocations.

Artificer and Marshal will have to wait until I finish reading through Incarnum first.

What do you do if two Associates have the same class feature ( i.e. wizard & archivist)?

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Originally Posted by Southern Cross

What do you do if two Associates have the same class feature ( i.e. wizard & archivist)?

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If you are picking 2 associations based off Tier 1 casters, you probably don't need another power boost. :smallwink: But I would say you get another Item Crafting feat of your choice.

I love this class. It allows a level of customization that normally could only be obtained by doing a lot of multiclassing, which I honestly never liked to do.
It also, as you stated, allows you to combine concepts at level one, instead of having to wait until level 6+ before you could play the custom idea you want.

On a more comment note:
I second the artificer association, I'd even be willing to help write it up.
I also think maybe a new section or add on to the half-blood ones for more of a "racial/template" collection of associations. Like maybe a vampire one (shouldn't be hard to find vampire fitting things on par with other associations) and a lich one. That way people can work those ideas into their character without them worrying about LA and the DM worrying about templates. I also just thought of a elemental association, maybe with a breath weapon like attack based on their chosen element, progressive elemental resistance, maybe the ability to summon elementals so many time per day.

Just some ideas I had on this awesome class.

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Originally Posted by DrewVolker

I love this class.

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Haha thanks!

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Originally Posted by DrewVolker

On a more comment note:
I second the artificer association, I'd even be willing to help write it up.

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Feel free to do so and post it in this thread. I'll add a link to your post in the main text.

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Originally Posted by DrewVolker

I also think maybe a new section or add on to the half-blood ones for more of a "racial/template" collection of associations. Like maybe a vampire one (shouldn't be hard to find vampire fitting things on par with other associations)

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Vampires are... incredibly powerful. Its stated LA is +8, whereas most of the current half-bloods have +2 or +3. If I do adapt it, its stats will probably be closer to Vampire Spawn.

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Originally Posted by DrewVolker

and a lich one. That way people can work those ideas into their character without them worrying about LA and the DM worrying about templates.

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Hmm... let me see what I can come up with.

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Originally Posted by DrewVolker

I also just thought of a elemental association, maybe with a breath weapon like attack based on their chosen element, progressive elemental resistance, maybe the ability to summon elementals so many time per day.

Just some ideas I had on this awesome class.

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There is the Half-Elemental templates and the Elemental Creature templates, both from MoTP which I could use as a basis.

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Originally Posted by JeminiZero

Feel free to do so and post it in this thread. I'll add a link to your post in the main text.

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I'll get on that sometime today, see what I can come up with.

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Originally Posted by JeminiZero

Vampires are... incredibly powerful. Its stated LA is +8, whereas most of the current half-bloods have +2 or +3. If I do adapt it, its stats will probably be closer to Vampire Spawn.

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Honestly, how powerful you made the association isn't as important as how flavorful you make it. I know the full on vampire template is very powerful, but what I meant by a vampire association was something along the lines of what you have already for half-bloods, but with vampire iconic abilities. Like drain blood for example. The power is not really that important, as I said, it would be if someone wanted to work the vampire concept into their character, without going with the super monster of a template that vampire is.



Okay first draft here. Just pulled it together as a general outline. Thought I'd get your opinion on it then make any needed changes. I think it came out decent, as far as representing the abilities of a artificer goes anyway. I thought about adding a scaling percent off the gold and xp costs of crafting magical items. Example at 1st level you get 5% off gold and xp costs of making magic items, but by the time you are level 20 its 25%. Not sure if that'd work out well or not though.


Artificer Association

Artificer Association Progression (Based on Associate Level)
{table=head] Level | Special
Starter | Creation Feat, Artificer Skills
01 | Item Creation, Craftsman Training +1 |
03 | Creation Feat |
05 | Craftsman Training +2 |
07 | Creation Feat |
09 | Craftsman Training +3 |
11 | Creation Feat |
13 | Craftsman Training +4 |
15 | Creation Feat |
17 | Craftsman Training +5 |
19 | Creation Feat |[/table]


Artificer Skills: Add Spellcraft and Use Magic Device to your Trissociate class skill list.

Creation Feat: At the indicated levels a Artificer gains a bonus feat from the following list, using their Trissociate level as their Spellcaster level for prerequisites.
Feat list: Brew Potion, Craft Construct, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, and Scribe Scroll.

Item Creation: You gain the Item Creation class feature as described in the Eberron Campaign Setting.

Craftsman Training: You gain the stated bonus on all Craft and Use Magic Device skill checks.

OK, I had a quick look at the Artificer class, to try and understand how to work with it.

The starter Creation Feat doesn't quite work without Item Creation class feature to power it. I would probably use Artificer Knowledge as the starter.

Also could use infusions, with a maximum of 1 each level, as per the Wizard.

Instead of Creation Feat, I would use the Artificer Bonus Feat, and add the caveat that Item Creation feats may also be selected.

Overall it would look more like this.

{table]Level | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Special
Starter | - | - | - | - | - | - | Artificer knowledge
01 | - | - | - | - | - | - | Item Creation, Bonus Feat
03 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | Artisan Bonus
05 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | Bonus Feat
07 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | Retain Essence
09 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | Bonus Feat
11 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | Metamagic Spell Trigger
13 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | Bonus Feat
15 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | Metamagic Spell Completion
17 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Bonus Feat
19 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Skill Mastery
[/table]

Others: You gain class features as an Artificer, following the progression in the table above.

Infusions: You gain infusions per day as an Artificer, following the table above. You receive extra infusions per day, based on your Intelligence score.

Bonus Feat: You receive a bonus feat as the Artificer class feature. Additionally, since you do not naturally receive any Item Crafting feats, you may also select any Item Crafting feat which you qualify for, as your bonus feat.

Special: If you possess the Craft Construct feat, you may upgrade your homunculus, as per the Artificer Craft Homunculus class feature.

Does this seem balanced?

I like it, much better than what I came up with, haha.

Either way, It seems to include everything you'd need to be an artificer, with being balanced in my opinion anyway.