-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hazzardevil
I thought that the emperor couldn't do much manifesting of power due to being deep deep underground where he can't see anything.
And I think I know a surefire way of a huge amount of the imperium losing faith in the emperor:
Show the universe what the Emperor looks like, I was surprised at what he really looked like when I first saw it.
First you have to decide what he looks like.:smallbiggrin: Even official artwork varies wildly on his appearance, let alone fan depictions.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Sure they do, they're only human. You can't ask people to stop being human - even the Astartes are guilty of one or two of those emotions.
It's a bit of a big step from being angry at your shift manager to directly serving Khorne though.
It might be a big step, but unfortunately Khorne draws power from both.
Quote:
He basically did.
Horus was their vessel, and he didn't just beat him: He removed his very soul from existence, in both the Aether and the Material.
Did he use Holocaust? Probably.
And, yeah, the big E probably knew he'd become some sort of weird God type thing if people believed in him...
However... he did not want this to happen, at least not immediately.
If he dies and goes Star Child, that may have some negative consequences that he knew of, that we are not yet aware of. Creating a fifth Chaos God, utterly different from the Emperor seems likely.
Yeah right...
Lets see the outcome of round 1.
Chaos gods? still sitting in the warp having fun toying with the lifes of mortals.
Emperor?
Stuck in a near-death state he proberly wont recover from, while his dream of an age of light and reason has been corruped to a degree where it isnt visibel anymore.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lord_khaine
It might be a big step, but unfortunately Khorne draws power from both.
Yeah right...
Lets see the outcome of round 1.
Chaos gods? still sitting in the warp having fun toying with the lifes of mortals.
Emperor?
Stuck in a near-death state he proberly wont recover from, while his dream of an age of light and reason has been corruped to a degree where it isnt visibel anymore.
You're talking about round 2.
Round 1 is when Big E spreads the imperial truth to the stars. Reading the horus heresy novels (False Gods specifically) gives us a scene where horus first meets with and talks to the chaos gods. And they admit that the emperor's program of uniting the galaxy in atheism is killing them. Corrupting Horus was a mad gamble on their part that ended up paying big dividens, but was ultimately exactly that: A mad gamble. If horus hadn't sided with them? They would have unquestionably died out. No other individual or faction could have hoped to make a dent in the Great Crusade, and the Imperial Truth would have dominated the galaxy and starved the Chaos Gods to death.
Emperor's plan was actually pretty ****ing brilliant. The only flaw in it was not giving the details to the primarchs, so they knew what the ACTUAL goal of galactic unification was. Not just the stated goal.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lord_khaine
It might be a big step, but unfortunately Khorne draws power from both.
Yeah right...
Lets see the outcome of round 1.
Chaos gods? still sitting in the warp having fun toying with the lifes of mortals.
Emperor?
Stuck in a near-death state he proberly wont recover from, while his dream of an age of light and reason has been corruped to a degree where it isnt visibel anymore.
He also destroyed the only possible vessel for the Chaos Gods in the galaxy.
Sure, he's stuck in a near-death state, but that's not unfixable. If he dies: Star Child.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
Sure, he's stuck in a near-death state, but that's not unfixable. If he dies: Star Child.
Which doesn't exist anymore.
The Star Child is a weapon of the C'Tan (Star Gods, hint, hint), the greatest weapon against Chaos that the galaxy has ever known.
Since the Star Gods no longer exist, the fluff surrounding the Star Child is likewise retconned out of existence.
EDIT: So is most of Cypher's bad-arsery. The second greatest tool of the C'Tan, destined to unhinge Chaos whilst simultaneously bring the return of the Emperor (assuming by Shanking him with C'Tan blade, which Cypher lost). Besides, the HH series gives Cypher new fluff (and the Dark Angels books are terrible).
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
He also destroyed the only possible vessel for the Chaos Gods in the galaxy.
Sure, he's stuck in a near-death state, but that's not unfixable. If he dies: Star Child.
Vessel? last time i read the lore it just said he had been empowered by all 4 gods, just like Abbadon has been now.
And that still leaves the chaos gods free to continue as before, while the emperor is stuck drooling in a wheelchair.
Quote:
Round 1 is when Big E spreads the imperial truth to the stars. Reading the horus heresy novels (False Gods specifically) gives us a scene where horus first meets with and talks to the chaos gods. And they admit that the emperor's program of uniting the galaxy in atheism is killing them. Corrupting Horus was a mad gamble on their part that ended up paying big dividens, but was ultimately exactly that: A mad gamble. If horus hadn't sided with them? They would have unquestionably died out. No other individual or faction could have hoped to make a dent in the Great Crusade, and the Imperial Truth would have dominated the galaxy and starved the Chaos Gods to death.
Actualy we got baggrund lore showing that this was some kind of lie from the chaos gods side, and that the great crusade wouldnt have killed them.
The evidence lies in Slanash, who were born and empowered without any actual worship besides dedication to his portfolio.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lord_khaine
Vessel? last time i read the lore it just said he had been empowered by all 4 gods, just like Abbadon has been now.
...Lorgar did it first. And is hell bent on using that power to become the fifth Chaos God.
The Chaos Gods have multiple 'vessels', if that is even the right word - which I really don't think it is.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Yeah, the other potential vessels are useless in comparison to Horus, though. They aren't strong enough. Abaddon's just a jumped-up Champion of Chaos Unidivided who has a bad habit of failing repeatedly (You need how many Black Crusades to topple the Imperium?)
He was the only mortal (Big E aside) that could hold their power in the material plane. And he got erased. The others are now just Daemon Princes, who can't leave the Eye for any extended period of time.
I want to know how the Great Crusade navigated without the Astronomican, though...?
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Which doesn't exist anymore.
The Star Child is a weapon of the C'Tan (Star Gods, hint, hint), the greatest weapon against Chaos that the galaxy has ever known.
Since the Star Gods no longer exist, the fluff surrounding the Star Child is likewise retconned out of existence.
EDIT: So is most of Cypher's bad-arsery. The second greatest tool of the C'Tan, destined to unhinge Chaos whilst simultaneously bring the return of the Emperor (assuming by Shanking him with C'Tan blade, which Cypher lost). Besides, the HH series gives Cypher new fluff (and the Dark Angels books are terrible).
Thorians still argue in favour of that sorta thing, though.
Also, he has Luther's the Lion's sword too.
I still like Cypher, to be honest.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
Yeah, the other potential vessels are useless in comparison to Horus, though. They aren't strong enough. Abaddon's just a jumped-up Champion of Chaos Unidivided who has a bad habit of failing repeatedly (You need how many Black Crusades to topple the Imperium?)
He was the only mortal (Big E aside) that could hold their power in the material plane. And he got erased. The others are now just Daemon Princes, who can't leave the Eye for any extended period of time.
I want to know how the Great Crusade navigated without the Astronomican, though...?
Keep in mind Abbadon's reputation for failure is greatly exaggerated. Of the 13 Crusades so far, he's actually succeeded at his intended goal on a little more than half of them (which was very rarely 'conquer the Imperium').
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
Thorians still argue in favour of that sorta thing, though.
'Sort of', being the operative phrase. What Thorians are actually trying to do is find a super-saint. Kind of like a Champion of the Emperor in opposition to Abbadon. One such a person - they believe - was Sebastian Thor, hence the name.
Only crazy people actually want to kill the Emperor. Since killing the Emperor is unthinkable to pretty much everyone alive. Whether the theory is solid or not. Because - you guessed it - the Star Child is no longer canon.
Quote:
Also, he has Luther's the Lion's sword too.
Which doesn't do anything except be a really cool sword, and, thus, irrelevant. It isn't even part of his wargear. It has no special properties that any other Primarch weapon wouldn'tve had. It is effectively about as powerful as Dorn's Soulspear, or Fulgrim's Fireblade or Lorgar's Illuminarum. Which aren't powerful weapons as such, it's the person behind the weapon smashing faces in.
More accurately, since the Lion's sword is broken, it's probably more akin to the Sword of the High Marshals held by the Black Templars.
Quote:
I still like Cypher, to be honest.
Why? The cool version of him has been retconned out of existence. We may as well bring back the Sensei while we're at it. And the form that Cypher does exist in, isn't actually all that spectacular.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Yeah, the other potential vessels are useless in comparison to Horus, though. They aren't strong enough. Abaddon's just a jumped-up Champion of Chaos Unidivided who has a bad habit of failing repeatedly (You need how many Black Crusades to topple the Imperium?)
He was the only mortal (Big E aside) that could hold their power in the material plane. And he got erased. The others are now just Daemon Princes, who can't leave the Eye for any extended period of time.
I want to know how the Great Crusade navigated without the Astronomican, though...?
I dont know where you get this from, in level of power Horus was just 1 of several primarchs, and was neither stronger nor weaker than his brothers in any significant degree.
And what made him able to to fight the emperor were mostly that the chaos gods managet to agree on something for a change, combined with Horus being decently powerfull to start with.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Yeah, I'm hoping he comes back with a vengeance in the new Chaos Codex. He used to be totally badass. Was his background actually removed, or were we given more options to think about?
The Lion's sword may have mystical properties we don't know of. There's always magic, after all.
Sebastian Thor, and other 'super saints', would be better than Abaddon. He basically had Warp Storms turning up wherever he needed them. Abaddon doesn't even have Psychic powers. Thor could banish daemons by looking at them, and had the Emperor crippling the Enemy with warp storms for him.
The Emperor's control over Warp Storms is certainly interesting, though, normally they're associated with Chaos, but some seem to be intentionally working in the Imperium's favour.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
The Lion's sword may have mystical properties we don't know of. There's always magic, after all.
So, we get two whole books of the Lion doing stuff, and a few short stories. And nowhere does the Lion's sword have super powers. Unless you've read something I haven't?
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lord_khaine
I dont know where you get this from, in level of power Horus was just 1 of several primarchs, and was neither stronger nor weaker than his brothers in any significant degree.
And what made him able to to fight the emperor were mostly that the chaos gods managet to agree on something for a change, combined with Horus being decently powerfull to start with.
What I understood was that the Emperor was able to snuff him out of existence with but a thought, but that he held back until it was too late.
Then, of course, he destroyed his own compassion and mercy and destroyed Horus' soul. The 'chink in Horus armour' that Sanguinius revealed was that the Emperor had to show no mercy, a metaphorical chink, as opposed to a gap in his armour.
To me, Horus always seemed the most powerful of the Primarchs, or the Chaos Gods had only really one chance to fill up the likes of a Primarch with their power. If they could do it with Horus, after all, why didn't they do it with Lorgar afterwards?
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
So, we get two whole books of the Lion doing stuff, and a few short stories. And nowhere does the Lion's sword have super powers. Unless you've read something I haven't?
There's the 'if it comes back to Terra the Emperor might accept this crappy apology and fix it'... the redemption of the Fallen thing.
The sword itself doesn't need to shoot lightning, it could just be a McGuffin, part of Cypher's magical fairy quest for forgiveness, which I can't help but like.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
Then, of course, he destroyed his own compassion and mercy and destroyed Horus' soul. The 'chink in Horus armour' that Sanguinius revealed was that the Emperor had to show no mercy, a metaphorical chink, as opposed to a gap in his armour.
Not even close. Horus cutting down Sanguinius meant that Horus was no longer his brother, and no longer the Emperor's son. And that's why the Emperor smashed him in the face.
Quote:
If they could do it with Horus, after all, why didn't they do it with Lorgar afterwards?
Wow. They did it with Lorgar first. The problem was that he wasn't suited to lead, but to corrupt. And that's exactly what he did. With flying colours.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Not even close. Horus cutting down Sanguinius meant that Horus was no longer his brother, and no longer the Emperor's son. And that's why the Emperor smashed him in the face.
I was of the opinion that the Emperor, after seeing this, removed the compassion from his own soul. Has this been retconned away, just like the Guardsman dude that accidentally ended up being in that same fight? Didn't they upgrade him to a Custodes? (Boo! Hiss!)
Quote:
Wow. They did it with Lorgar first. The problem was that he wasn't suited to lead, but to corrupt. And that's exactly what he did. With flying colours.
Yeah, he wasn't suited to lead, but, hey, after Horus died, they may as well have had him destroying worlds instead of meditating for thousands of years.
"Horus is dead? Don't worry, we have a spare! Who do you have? Roboute Guilliman? Well done; we'll be eating your soul presently."
Horus was the only one strong enough to contain what they needed. Be it strength to contain their psychic power, or strength to lead people in war.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Doesnt the Alpha Legion turn because the Imperium ending chaos is a very real possibility, but one that would leave only mankind to turn against itself and then extinguish life in the galaxy? At least, thats the vision they are sold.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Query:
Why could the Emperor only make 20 Primarchs?
Also:
How did the Chaos Gods nick them?
Theory:
The Emperor took a (stupid) gamble and used sorcery as well as science to create them, hoping to get them on side before the Chaos Gods could.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
I was of the opinion that the Emperor, after seeing this, removed the compassion from his own soul.
Source? It's not far different from the real verstion.
Quote:
Has this been retconned away, just like the Guardsman dude that accidentally ended up being in that same fight?
Rumour has it that Ollanius is coming back. As an Eternal. Similar to Duncan Idaho from Dune.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
Why could the Emperor only make 20 Primarchs?
Because.
...He also made 21.
Quote:
How did the Chaos Gods nick them?
Magic. Read Horus Rising.
Quote:
The Emperor took a (stupid) gamble and used sorcery as well as science to create them, hoping to get them on side before the Chaos Gods could.
Wrong. The Primarchs are 100% science. Read Deliverance Lost. Big Daddy didn't know Chaos would steal them, so that was never an issue in his plan.
I suggest you check out Lexicanum and get your hands on as many books as possible.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Wrong. The Primarchs are 100% science. Read more books. Or Lexicanum will do. You make a lot of theories. Most of which have been proven false by Horus Heresy novels. And the rest hasn't been around for 15 years.
-emperor creates primarchs.
-Chaos gods steal primarchs and corrupt several of them with warp magics, including sanguinus geting magic wings (since they grant him maneuverable flight whitout a winged tail, which is imposible by actual science).
-emperor finds primarchs and goes "I'm fine with that. Here guys, I'll let you control my legions, what could go wrong?"
-?
-End up as a glorified torch.
So yes, magic was definetely involved on the creation of the primarchs. The emperor may've not done so willingly, but by granting control of the legions to warp-corrupted primarchs instead of, you know, making new ones, magic was involved.
If there's completely arbitarly limitations on the primarch creation that would stop him from replicating the experiment, then it was never science to begin with. Science needs to be constant and dupliceable to be science, so if all your books can come up with is "because", then it's magic pure and simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Big Daddy didn't know Chaos would steal them, so that was never an issue in his plan.
Planning to destroy chaos gods.
+
Expect chaos gods do absolutely nothing to mess up your plan.
=
Fail
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maglag
If there's completely arbitarly limitations on the primarch creation that would stop him from replicating the experiment...
There isn't. It's all in Deliverance Lost. Emperor gives the Primarch Code (or at least parts of it) to Corax so that Corax can build super-Marines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maglag
Planning to destroy chaos gods.
+
Expect chaos gods do absolutely nothing to mess up your plan.
=
Fail
Yeah? And? Frequently throughout the Heresy novels, Emperor makes a ton of bad decisions. That's kind of the point. Else how would we identify with the Primarchs who went bad? What would be the point of the Heresy if Dad is actually always right? There'd be no reason to rebel in the first place.
Lorgar was treated awfully. Should the Emperor have done what he did? Hell no. But that's why Lorgar did what he did. Angron was lost from the start because Dad did a Greyson move.
The Emperor being an idiot isn't new.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
There isn't. It's all in Deliverance Lost. Emperor gives the Primarch Code (or at least parts of it) to Corax so that Corax can build super-Marines.
The primarch code now produces super-marines instead of primarchs? And then nobody else remembered to use them in 10 000 years? Yes that makes perfect sense indeed. Totally not magic.
The Lexicanum also makes no mention about any primarch code given to Corax. Things keep poping out of nowhere and then instantly disapearing, but totally not magic again!
You also still didn't explain why the emperor then didn't just create new primarchs instead of trusting his empire with warp-corrupted ones.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
1) You need to read up on the Raven Guard. Like, anything at all about them. There is an extremely good reason why no one else has tried to make Super-Marines since Corax did.
2) So...your arguement that 'it's magic' relies on the fact that a publicly editable, fan-made wiki doesn't mention something from a single novel?
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Wait, that makes no sense...
If he used science, he could have just made more after the first lot disappeared.
Why didn't he make more? Why did he use them to breed inferior Marines?
And, really, the most powerful Psyker ever to have existed didn't use psychic powers to improve his creations?
He probably used science, with his Primarch Code, then made a deal, which he thought went well, with the Chaos Gods to make them even better, near-immortals. He didn't get as good a deal as he thought.
"Right, they'll disappear for a while, but I'll find them. They might be a little bit mutated, but they'll love their Daddy!"
Do the books actually detail the creation of the Primarchs, or does it give secondary sources? Seeing as the Emperor is a big fat liar, I can still see him using sorcery, especially if his experiment can't be recreated. If it can't be recreated, after 20 successful attempts beforehand, it isn't science.
He probably gave Corax information, but nowhere near enough.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maglag
The primarch code now produces super-marines instead of primarchs? And then nobody else remembered to use them in 10 000 years? Yes that makes perfect sense indeed. Totally not magic.
"It doesn't say that it's not magic, so it is."
Perfect argument. Here, I found a scarecrow. It's full of straw.
Quote:
You also still didn't explain why the emperor then didn't just create new primarchs instead of trusting his empire with warp-corrupted ones.
You tell me. We're not told why he doesn't (IF IT'S NOT EXPLAINED TO US IN EVERY DETAIL, ASSUME MAGIC). The Emperor's an idiot. I'm not disagreeing. In fact I even wrote as much in my last post. The Emperor also believed that he could save his sons from Chaos, right up until Horus slew Sanguinius. So, that's why he trusted his sons. Because that's what a father does.
Even though he basically pushed more than a few of them in that direction on his own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
Seeing as the Emperor is a big fat liar, I can still see him using sorcery, especially if his experiment can't be recreated.
Show me why you believe the Emperor would use Sorcery? Where has he ever done this? Where is the precedent?
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
Why didn't he make more? Why did he use them to breed inferior Marines?
Going by Outcast Dead, he planned to do the same thing as he did to the Thunder Warriors*. That is to say, they have a limited "viable lifespan (thousands of years long, but long term plans, eh?)" and he wanted them to die and leave ordinary humans a sparkly galatic empire.
*(I dislike Outcast Dead for including them, though. :smallannoyed:)
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
The outcomes imply Sorcery.
The intervention of the Chaos Gods, stealing the kids, and the creation of mutants, implies sorcery. The Chaos Gods can't just get involved in the material world, especially so close to Terra, without someone letting them in.
The fact that the Emperor did not make more, implies that he couldn't. He may have needed an unholy deal or arcane powers to do it, and reasoned that he didn't want to do it again. The fact that Corax' super-marines weren't Primarchs implies that they were missing something: maybe they didn't get their vitamins, maybe they weren't bound together with magic.
(The Emperor could have just let Corax clone Space Marines, though, then had psykers or drugs speed up their growth... both have precedent in the setting: I'm calling idiocy on this one.)
The fact that he later banned sorcery implies that he may have had a bad experience himself.
The fact that the Emperor was cool with having a bunch of super-mutants lead his crusade implies that he might have expected such.
Also: Psychic powers can give super-strength etc to people; as has been shown many times in the setting. As the most powerful psyker ever, why wouldn't the Emperor try to use magic as well as science? He was happy to use his magic in battle, along with his power fist or whatever, so why not do the same when making his kids?
"There are risks in the creation of these beings, especially with the powers I use. However, I'm the gods-damned Emperor. I can do what I want, and nothing can stop me!"
"Oh, crap, where did my sons go? Their mother should have been watching them!"
Ah, the Emperor, the worst Dad ever.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
The Chaos Gods can't just get involved in the material world, especially so close to Terra, without someone letting them in.
Wrong. They can do anything they want.
Otherwise read Horus Rising. We're shown exactly what happens.
Quote:
The fact that the Emperor did not make more, implies that he couldn't. He may have needed an unholy deal or arcane powers to do it, and reasoned that he didn't want to do it again.
Show proof. Read Horus Rising about what happened to the lab.
Quote:
The fact that Corax' super-marines weren't Primarchs implies that they were missing something: maybe they didn't get their vitamins, maybe they weren't bound together with magic.
They were missing something. Emperor's DNA. So Corax put his in.
...Then bad stuff happend - and no, it had nothing to do with Corax's DNA, but it's a massive spoiler. But, you can just check your Raven Guard lore.
Quote:
The fact that he later banned sorcery implies that he may have had a bad experience himself.
Dur. His name was Magnus.
Quote:
Ah, the Emperor, the worst Dad ever.
Horus Heresy, otherwise known as "No Dad, f* you!"
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
1) You need to read up on the Raven Guard. Like, anything at all about them. There is an extremely good reason why no one else has tried to make Super-Marines since Corax did.
2) So...your arguement that 'it's magic' relies on the fact that a publicly editable, fan-made wiki doesn't mention something from a single novel?
1)This is 40K we're talking about. Between servants of "Let the Galaxy Burn!" chaos and fanatic loyalists that blow up their own planets out of petty grudges, someone somewhere would definetely want to try it again in 10.000 years.
2)Yes, I trust the wiki, codexes, majority of fans and games more that I trust a single obscure author. If he actually wrote that. Cheesegear himself was saying the Lexicanum was completely trustworthy a few minutes ago.
How convenient, the Lexicanum being only a valid source when it's convenient for you right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
"It doesn't say that it's not magic, so it is."
Perfect argument. Here, I found a scarecrow. It's full of straw.
Hiding behind cheap philosophy does not an argument make. You still didn't show anything that proves it is science, and have run out of reasons (even made up ones), therefore yes it is magic because it's the only reason that can explain the existence of limited-edition primarchs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Show me why you believe the Emperor would use Sorcery? Where has he ever done this? Where is the precedent?
1-He just happens to be the fused souls of every human shaman/mage/sorceror/psychic prior to a certain era.
2-Grey Knights, a full chapter of sorcerors brewed by the emperor himself just before he decided Horus would be open to peaceful dialogue after butchering three legions of his own bros.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maglag
2)Yes, I trust the wiki, codexes, majority of fans and games more that I trust a single obscure author.
Yeah. Gav Thorpe is obscure. After reading that, I'm done.
Lexicanum is good when it has the information. When it doesn't, it doesn't. Does Lexicanum say that Dorn puts Garro through a wall for talking s* about his brothers? No. Does that mean it didn't happen? Obviously.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
@ Maglag:
Grey Knights aren't sorcerers, they're psykers. Big difference.
A psyker can be pure, a sorcerer actively uses corrupt Warp energies.
It's actually explained better in Warhammer Fantasy, which works differently, I know. In Warhammer Fantasy, Dark Magic=Sorcery. Of course, all magic is dangerous, Chaotic crap, but Dark Magic/Sorcery actually involve arcane deals with daemons and forbidden rites.
@Cheesegear:
And surely, using the Emperor's DNA would require magic? And surely, since Corax is the Emperor's son, he has the Emperor's DNA in his own blood? Also, we have samples of the Emperor's blood kicking around, too, if we know where to look. (On Dorn's armour, on the Emperor's armour (apparently in every suit of Terminator Armour), on the Talon of Horus, on the Throne...)
Of course, I'm asking too much for scientific sense here, I think! :D
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
@ Maglag:
Grey Knights aren't sorcerers, they're psykers. Big difference.
Nope, the grey knights themselves admit and even gloat that they're sorcerors. All in their latest codex.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Only because this response is easy...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
And surely, using the Emperor's DNA would require magic?
Using the Emperor's DNA requires putting a needle in the Emperor and using what comes out.
Quote:
And surely, since Corax is the Emperor's son, he has the Emperor's DNA in his own blood?
No, because Corax is Corax. Not the Emperor. That's like saying that your DNA is the same as your Dad's. That's why they turned out as Super-Raven Guard instead of Primarchs.
Why didn't Dad just give Corax his DNA? Well, because what happened later is exactly what the Emperor was afraid would happen (and he warned Corax too).
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Lexicanum is good when it has the information. When it doesn't, it doesn't. Does Lexicanum say that Dorn puts Garro through a wall for talking s* about his brothers? No. Does that mean it didn't happen? Obviously.
Funny how you keep blatantly ignoring what the Lexicanum says:
Searching for a solution among the Librarium of the Ravenspire, Corax found the ancient books of genetic research providing the techniques used to create the first enhanced warriors of the Emperor, those techniques Corax duplicated to create Spaces Marines at a frightening rate.
Corax created his super marines with the tecniques used for the first enanched warriors of the Emperor. Which would be either Thunder Warriors or Adeptus Custodes. Not the primarchs.
There's a key diference between the lexicanum not saying something, and saying something that contradicts an obscure author.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maglag
Searching for a solution among the Librarium of the Ravenspire, Corax found the ancient books of genetic research providing the techniques used to create the first enhanced warriors of the Emperor, those techniques Corax duplicated to create Spaces Marines at a frightening rate.[/I]
Corax created his super marines with the tecniques used for the first enanched warriors of the Emperor. Which would be either Thunder Warriors or Adeptus Custodes. Not the primarchs.
In Deliverance Lost, Corax goes to Terra. He speaks personally with Dorn and with Malcador. Runs through a maze and one of his psykers opens a psy-locked door and pretends nothing ever happened. Because if the psyker admits what he did - regardless that he needed to to get to the DNA - Corax would be forced to execute him due to the decree of Nikea.
Oops. That's not in Lexicanum. Didn't happen.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Only because this response is easy...
Using the Emperor's DNA requires putting a needle in the Emperor and using what comes out.
No, because Corax is Corax. Not the Emperor. That's like saying that your DNA is the same as your Dad's. That's why they turned out as Super-Raven Guard instead of Primarchs.
Why didn't Dad just give Corax his DNA? Well, because what happened later is exactly what the Emperor was afraid would happen (and he warned Corax too).
To be fair, Corax could have simply did his sneaky thing that he's so good at and picked up toe-nail clippings or skin from somewhere.
And, actually, since the Primarchs don't have a mother, their DNA should be very similar to the Emperor's. Unless there was some weird and unspeakable experiments with women going on, and that's why they're all so different.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maglag
There's a key diference between the lexicanum not saying something, and saying something that contradicts an obscure author.
Gav Thorpe isn't obscure at all.
He's been one of GW's main guys for as long as I can remember... probably at least 15 years.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maglag
2)Yes, I trust the wiki, codexes, majority of fans and games more that I trust a single obscure author. If he actually wrote that. Cheesegear himself was saying the Lexicanum was completely trustworthy a few minutes ago.
He said it was a good source. These two statements are not mutually exclusive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maglag
Hiding behind cheap philosophy does not an argument make. You still didn't show anything that proves it is science, and have run out of reasons (even made up ones), therefore yes it is magic because it's the only reason that can explain the existence of limited-edition primarchs.
Okay, explain the Maus, Big Ben, Channel Tunnel, LHC, and a dozen other things that I can't think of. Just because science can make more, doesn't mean it will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maglag
1-He just happens to be the fused souls of every human shaman/mage/sorceror/psychic prior to a certain era.
2-Grey Knights, a full chapter of sorcerors brewed by the emperor himself just before he decided Horus would be open to peaceful dialogue after butchering three legions of his own bros.
1: More or less Defunct lore.
2: Buh? Even just going by Lexicanum the Emperor asked his best buddy Malcador to set the Grey Knights up for him from the best psyker recruits in the Loyalist legions. Sorcery, please.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
Unless there was some weird and unspeakable experiments with women going on, and that's why they're all so different.
There wasn't. They're all different because the Emperor wanted them different. Dorn the Champion, Guilliman the Tactician, Horus the Statesman, Lorgar the Speaker, Magnus the Scholar, etc. The Emperor wanted them that way so that they all wouldn't follow the same tactics and become stale and that they would be able to bounce ideas off of each other.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
In Deliverance Lost, Corax goes to Terra. He speaks personally with Dorn and with Malcador. Oops. That's not in Lexicanum. Didn't happen.
{Scrubbed}
The Lexicanum directly contradicted your obscure author by stating he did not use any primarch code for his super warriors. Both cannot be right. I suport the one that makes more sense, that Corax would've used mass-produced super-warrior code to mass-produce super warrior instead of using primarch code to mass-produce super warriors.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
Gav Thorpe isn't obscure at all.
He's been one of GW's main guys for as long as I can remember... probably at least 15 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maglag
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
The Lexicanum directly contradicted your obscure author.
Listen. Matt Ward is a bit of an idiot. Gav Thorpe isn't obscure. You're not very good at avoiding insulting the other people involved in a conversation. I have a blueberry pi- Waitasecond.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
There wasn't. They're all different because the Emperor wanted them different. Dorn the Champion, Guilliman the Tactician, Horus the Statesman, Lorgar the Speaker, Magnus the Scholar, etc. The Emperor wanted them that way so that they all wouldn't follow the same tactics and become stale and that they would be able to bounce ideas off of each other.
And he did this by screwing with their DNA?
Wow. Also, you'd think they would all look the exact same if this happened. At least Guilliman and Dorn would. Their brains would be different, but why hair colour? (Also, which one was ANGRON supposed to be? THE ANGRY ONE! :D )
He really should have filled a few million dataslates with the cure for every disease if he was that good at DNA type stuff.
Nurgle would be dead within a month.
Re: Not making more, a la Channel Tunnel, LHC etc... more are not made there, since they aren't needed. The Emperor could have used more Primarchs, to be honest, and tinkering with DNA wouldn't require vast resources if the research had already been done.
EDIT: Re: Experiments with women. My implication here is that the Primarchs got their different personality traits from potential mothers. The Emperor wanted Horus to be the pretty one, so took a pretty woman. He wanted ANGRON to be the ANGRY ONE, so took an angry woman. Etc.
@Kinslayer: Are you certain the creation of the Emperor is defunct?
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
Wow. Also, you'd think they would all look the exact same if this happened. At least Guilliman and Dorn would. Their brains would be different, but why hair colour?
They were stolen by Chaos. It can account for a lot. Let's take maglag's approach. Magic.
Maybe they were supposed to all look the same. We're never told what they looked like before Chaos took them. But, ultimately...Magnus is red. Vulkan is black. Not 'African black'. But, actual, onyx black. If it's not explained, then it's magic. Never mind that it's not explained because it's not important.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
They were stolen by Chaos. It can account for a lot. Let's take maglag's approach. Magic.
Maybe they were supposed to all look the same. We're never told what they looked like before Chaos took them. But, ultimately...Magnus is red. Vulkan is black. Not 'African black'. But, actual, onyx black.
Fair call.
Still, if he could decide what their personalities would be like by altering their DNA alone, you'd think he'd be better spending his time curing every disease ever, and destroying 1/4 of the Chaos Gods in the process.
But no, he's the Emperor, and a megalomaniac, so decides to create super soldiers.
Actually, that does make sense, since he's a mental Space Nazi.
EDIT: Of course, why Chaos wanted Leman Russ to be Scandinavian and Jaghatai Khan to be Asian, I've no idea.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
@Kinslayer: Are you certain the creation of the Emperor is defunct?
Fairly sure. It isn't brought up as that anymore, and Outcast Dead gives the "Emperor is teh best of teh best of the evil really strong psyker lords that took over Terra for a while in the Age of Strife." This isn't nessecarily canon for the Emperor's past because it's secondhand myth at best.
And since the Horus Heresy is being fluffed out but the Emperor hasn't given his word on it yet, anything is possible. :smalltongue:
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
Still, if he could decide what their personalities would be like by altering their DNA alone, you'd think he'd be better spending his time curing every disease ever, and destroying 1/4 of the Chaos Gods in the process.
Nurgle is actually Life, not Disease.
If the Necrons win, I guess Nurgle dies :smalltongue:
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Whenever you want to know why somebody did or didn't do something, either
a) It's explained in a book, or
b) It makes a better story that way, one way or another (there are 21[19] Primarchs because that's what they could come up with), or
c) It doesn't matter, it's not important, so the writers didn't bother including it.
Read any book. When a character looks at 'the sky', do you automatically assume the sky is blue? Did the author need to explain that in this fantasy or sci-fi universe that the sky wasn't blue? Probably not. Because it really doesn't matter, unless it does. And, if the sky's colour does matter, it's going to be explained.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I could see a fairly simple reason why the emperor would change projects after the Chaos gods stole the primarchs away; He decided to stop putting all his eggs in one basket.
As for the primarch notes stuff being unreproducible; A) I think some of them were lost somewhere down the line, or controlling the Canis Helix would not have been the monumental feat of research it was. and B) I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the Emperor's notes involved concepts that the Imperium lost somewhere during the next few millenia after putting him on life support.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oracle_Hunter
Nurgle is actually Life, not Disease.
If the Necrons win, I guess Nurgle dies :smalltongue:
I think they're all life, actually.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oracle_Hunter
Nurgle is actually Life, not Disease.
Nurgle is Death, or rather, Fear of Death, or just Fear. Which is the emotion that powers him. Nurgle is 'Life' insofar as he 'isn't Death', but he's certainly not a God of Life. He is a God of Decay and Pestilence. He is a God of the Dying. Not of the living, but not the dead, either. Hence; Plague Zombies.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
I think they're all life, actually.
Aren't they just robots now? I'm not up on current Necron Fluff.
@Cheesegear -- I thought Nurgle's "good side" was Life. Y'know, like Tzeentch is "Hope" :smallconfused:
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oracle_Hunter
Aren't they just robots now? I'm not up on current Necron Fluff.
@Cheesegear -- I thought Nurgle's "good side" was Life. Y'know, like Tzeentch is "Hope" :smallconfused:
No, the Chaos Gods are all Gods of Life... and the emotions associated with it. Fear, Anger, Hope, Passion etc. If everyone except the Necrons died, the Chaos Gods would die.
If they have good sides, they tend to be more emotional, not concepts like 'life'. Khorne would be 'honour' for instance, Nurgle could, maybe, be 'compassion', by some arguments, but, to be honest, they're evil freaks and it gets too complicated, I think.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oracle_Hunter
@Cheesegear -- I thought Nurgle's "good side" was Life. Y'know, like Tzeentch is "Hope" :smallconfused:
I really don't think they have 'good sides' anymore. I know what you mean. That stuff is from Liber Chaotica, or maybe Realms of Chaos, which are books that aren't printed anymore and aren't mentioned anywhere in current canon that I know of. Khorne isn't 'honourable' at all. A skull is a skull. As long as you don't do it through Sorcery, he'll take it. And even then, there are some Sorcerers dedicated to Khorne.
(inb4 World Eaters nonsense. Sorcerers aren't in the World Eaters Legion, they're everywhere else)
However, Nurgle is the 'nice one'. Papa Nurgle. He loves you.
The best way I have heard it explained is thus;
You ask a Chaos God for help;
Khorne says; "Only if you do [this]."
Tzeentch says; "Maybe."
Slaanesh says; "Why should I?"
Nurgle smiles and says; "Sure."
...Nurgle being the one who puts you through the most Hell.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kinslayer
Fairly sure. It isn't brought up as that anymore, and Outcast Dead gives the "Emperor is teh best of teh best of the evil really strong psyker lords that took over Terra for a while in the Age of Strife." This isn't nessecarily canon for the Emperor's past because it's secondhand myth at best.
And since the Horus Heresy is being fluffed out but the Emperor hasn't given his word on it yet, anything is possible. :smalltongue:
I'm away from my books at the moment but in one of the early HH novels Horus relates how he has a ring that used to be the Emperor's from the ancient middle east. In Mechanicum the Emperor is shown as St George fighting the dragon.
I have a vague recollection of the Emperor, or someone else talking, about his origin and it being the shaman one. Can someone with access to the 5th ed BRB have a look at the timeline?
It is possible I'm having edition leakage here, 20+ years of background'll do that to you, but there are certainly plenty of hints and clues that the Emperor has been around since pre-history.
Re: Raven Guard. Corax goes to the Emperor's secret bunker to retrieve intel about the genetic manipulation that is the core of creating any of the superhumans but, as stated by the Emperor, it is the packed up remains of the Primarch lab.
The bunker is intended for future use by humanity as the Emperor knows his reign may one day fall (hence the Ozymandis line), and there is nothing sorcerous about the knowledge stated or implied.
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Having been inspired to do a Night Lords army, mostly by the recent series of books I had a few lore questions about the Heresy era time line, and events. If some one could fill in/and/or correct me it would be appreciated?
1- Konrad Cruze the Primarch says something disturbing to Fulgrim, who runs off and tells Dorn? Dorn calls out Konrad for his behavior and gets Mauled? (this was word of mouth, was trying to find a source, did Cruze physically assault Dorn?)
2- Cruze returns to Nostromo to purge it (realizing recruiting gangers and murders into the legion poisoned it). He did this after the fall out with Dorn, but for some reason was suspected to be sane enough to hep put down Horus's rebellion, thus taking part in the drop site massacre?
3- During the Drop site massacre he fights Corax forcing him to flee?
4- Following the Dropsite massacre spends 2+ years in a hit and run war with the Dark Angels, preventing them from re-joining the loyalists. Culminating in a wonderful primarch on primarch knock down brawl where he almost kills the Lion?
5- At some point rejoins the rest of the Traitors in the final attack on Terra, defeat ensues. Rather then flee to the Eye of Terror, his legion makes it way back to the far eastern fringe for a century + of terror caimpaign. Finally he allows a imperial assassin to kill him for vindication of his philosophy.
6- The VIII then begins to fragment into conflicting warbands as there was no heir (Sevatar being dead) to hold them together. Eventually the XIII and all its successor chapters drive them from their new adopted home world finally fragmenting them into different groups?
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zorg
I'm away from my books at the moment but in one of the early HH novels Horus relates how he has a ring that used to be the Emperor's from the ancient middle east. In Mechanicum the Emperor is shown as St George fighting the dragon.
I have a vague recollection of the Emperor, or someone else talking, about his origin and it being the shaman one. Can someone with access to the 5th ed BRB have a look at the timeline?
It is possible I'm having edition leakage here, 20+ years of background'll do that to you, but there are certainly plenty of hints and clues that the Emperor has been around since pre-history.
There are other histories stated in the HH books, I was just quoting the most recent one that was stuck in my head. I don't believe the shaman version is mentioned, though. Especially not by Him personally. Could be he's just one stylishly immortal human. Or maybe he's none of the above and just cashing in on the rep. (Hella unlikely)
-
Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
This is a huge lot of someone with comparitively little knowledge on the lore answering and asking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
First you have to decide what he looks like.:smallbiggrin: Even official artwork varies wildly on his appearance, let alone fan depictions.
I was thinking of this one:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Which doesn't exist anymore.
The Star Child is a weapon of the C'Tan (Star Gods, hint, hint), the greatest weapon against Chaos that the galaxy has ever known.
Since the Star Gods no longer exist, the fluff surrounding the Star Child is likewise retconned out of existence.
Is there anywhere I can find out about this star child theory? I keep finding mentions of it but no actual explanation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
'Sort of', being the operative phrase. What Thorians are actually trying to do is find a super-saint. Kind of like a Champion of the Emperor in opposition to Abbadon. One such a person - they believe - was Sebastian Thor, hence the name.
Only crazy people actually want to kill the Emperor. Since killing the Emperor is unthinkable to pretty much everyone alive. Whether the theory is solid or not. Because - you guessed it - the Star Child is no longer canon.
Would it be killing the emperor if the star child theory is true, turning off the machine? I doubt the theorists believe it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
1) You need to read up on the Raven Guard. Like, anything at all about them. There is an extremely good reason why no one else has tried to make Super-Marines since Corax did.
Where can I find super-marines? Are they somewhere between Primarchs and Terminators?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
@ Maglag:
Grey Knights aren't sorcerers, they're psykers. Big difference.
A psyker can be pure, a sorcerer actively uses corrupt Warp energies.
So, all sorcerers are psykers, all psykers are psychics? But not all psychics are psykers or sorcerers?
I think Psykers are just psychics with training in the art of blowing stuff up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
There wasn't. They're all different because the Emperor wanted them different. Dorn the Champion, Guilliman the Tactician, Horus the Statesman, Lorgar the Speaker, Magnus the Scholar, etc. The Emperor wanted them that way so that they all wouldn't follow the same tactics and become stale and that they would be able to bounce ideas off of each other.
I though they were different because in 40K, nurture trumps nature?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zorg
I have a vague recollection of the Emperor, or someone else talking, about his origin and it being the shaman one. Can someone with access to the 5th ed BRB have a look at the timeline?
I believe the latest one was he was formed in the 3rd millenium out of the combination of all of some kind of special psychics souls merged together through mass cyanide tablets. If this is true, the emperor can't be ST. George
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kinslayer
There are other histories stated in the HH books, I was just quoting the most recent one that was stuck in my head. I don't believe the shaman version is mentioned, though. Especially not by Him personally. Could be he's just one stylishly immortal human. Or maybe he's none of the above and just cashing in on the rep. (Hella unlikely)
I think the Shaman version is canon Right Now.
Also, to add a bit on, what is it in Chainswords that makes the blade spin? Since I don't think it says anywhere.