Rules Questions

[The Giant]

A lot of questions that need answers! I was supposed to run these past Kevin before posting them, but it's late and he's busy shipping games, so just be aware that one or two of these might get contradicted.

The rules (say you can start in a room, pick up one Loot, move, and fight in another room – and if you clear that room , you can pick up up to two more Loot. However, Haley’s “Come to Me, My Pretties” schtick says, “As always, you may pick Loot only once per turn.” Which is correct?

The rules are correct. The intent of that sentence was to make it clear that you couldn't pick up Loot from two different rooms just because the shtick allowed you to pick up two Loot per turn.

This is the way I interpreted it at first too, but when I was re-reading the rules I saw this on page 25 in the "Picking Up Loot" example box:

"Roy immediately picks up the top two, as his bonus for killing the last Monster. He cannot pick up a third, even though he did not pick up any Loot before moving."

Why not?? ???

Well...just because. I honestly can't remember what our logic for this was, but I know we specifically wanted you to be able to pick up no more than 2 Loot from monsters you killed. More than that, and there was less chance of players who were doing poorly to be able to "claim jump" and get a free Loot.

Thanks for the reply, Gamer5389, but Krago's reply doesn't quite answer the question. The rulebook seems to contradict itself.

Page 15 says that picking up 2 loot for killing a monster is a bonus, and I can still pick up loot at the end of my turn.

Page 25 in the example says that Roy can't pick up loot at the end of his turn.

Which one is correct?

Technically both, but the spirit you are looking for is page 25.

Basically, taking the two bonus Loot prohibits you from picking up any more Loot that turn, per the second bullet point on page 24 under "How Much Loot Can Be Picked Up". The text on page 15 doesn't specifically contradict this, it merely says that the two bonus Loot is in addition to any other Loot you would get--which in this case is zero, since if you take the bonus Loot, you get no other Loot. Yes, it's an awful wording choice on my part and would be much clearer if I just deleted the phrase, "or ending" from page 15, which I imagine would qualify as errata.

I start my turn alone in a room with loot, and pick up one Loot. It's not a trap, so I keep it. I then move to an empty room and trigger a battle, killing a monster that drops 2 more Loot. Can I pick up these two loot because I killed the last monster in the room, or am I limited to picking up loot just once per turn?

You may pick up two Loot in the room. You may not pick up a third Loot in that room (what would be a fourth Loot for the turn).

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We ran into a problem, since we had only five players. We played without Elan. The rules do not state that we should remove loot that Elan drools over. Should we remove it, or keep it in the game and make it worthless until points are counted in the end? Generally, I would prefer to remove loot that Elan drools over, but how far should we go? Should we remove loot that ONLY Elan drools over, or loot that Elan as well as other PCs drool over?

No, you should NEVER remove Loot from the deck, regardless of who is playing or not. Remember that Elan is still an NPC in that game, hanging around the lowest dungeon level that any player is currently on, and you can offer NPCs the Loot that they drool over, as long as no other PC drools over it too. Elan-only Loot is far from worthless, as it is the only Loot that you could use to buy assistance in battle that won't go into the hands of one of your opponents!

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The second rules question is a bit trickier. I guess I’ll explain the situation first:
I’m the first one down into Xykon’s lair, and have found him. Thanks to various supporting monsters already on this level, the Battle Size starts at 12…. and keeps getting bigger as we play more monsters. Pretty soon, Xykon’s stats are into the stratosphere, because of his Support: Assist ability. But then, on one of my Battle Deck redraws (I have to play monsters into this fight too, after all), I pull “Screw this! I Forgot They Could Do That” – and play it immediately to cancel Support: Assist and bring Xykon’s Attack value down to 16. We keep playing monsters – there end up being 49 in the stack. Since they’re not Supporting him, however, I manage to kill him. Without the ‘I Forgot…’, his Attack would have been over 50 – way out of my range.

Now, I’m wondering if that was entirely legal, even though the other players let me do it. The ‘I Forgot…’ card says “When any player (including you) is battling a Monster.” Since we were still busy populating the room, was I battling Xykon yet? If I’d had to wait until the monster stack was completed, I would have had to discard the ‘I Forgot’ card before I could have used it, in order to draw more Monster cards.

What you did is 100% legal, yes. You are battling the first Monster in the room the moment it is laid down.

More to the point, the following answer is wrong:

Technically, thats an illegal move, but not for the reason you suspect.

"I forgot they could do that" lets you ignore an ability the monster has. Abilities are things listed in the back of the rulebook, such as Flying, Bloodlust, Leader, or Invulnerable. Support is not an ability, its a characteristic of the monster, same as its attack rating.

However, what would have been a legal play would have been to play "I forgot..." on Xykon's Horde ability, which would have immediately reduced the battle size to 5, (4th lair + Leader). Any monster beyond the 5th would be discarded, and Xykon's Attack and Defense would have been quite manageable for you :).

This is incorrect, because you NEVER discard Monsters because the battle size is reduced. Battle Size is only checked while the battle is being triggered; once the Monsters are in the room, no change to the Battle Size can cause them to be discarded. You could, however, play IFTCDT to cancel Horde in the middle of people playing Monsters to keep the battle from growing even bigger.

However, it is correct that you can only cancel one of the Support Abilities, either Horde or Assist, not the entire Support concept. Once the Monsters are down and the Battle Size has been fulfilled, though, canceling Horde is essentially meaningless.

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Another question: Is picking up Loot the only thing that you can't do BOTH at the beginning AND end of your turn? For example, could I equip Loot at the beginning of my turn, move, battle, collect loot, and then equip Loot again? Could I do the same thing with turning in monsters for shticks?

Yes, you can do all of those things twice except for 1.) pick up Loot from a room that did not have Monsters in it at all on your turn, and 2.) search for stairs.

Q: Can players equip loot (with their own drool factors, of course) that has no effect? Can Haley equip a Bag of Gold and have it count towards her loot to enter Xykon's Lair?

Can and should, yes.

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edit: I thought of another one. With a 2-player game, the first player adds 2 monsters to the battle stack and then the second player adds one if the battle size is 3 or more. If it's more than 3, does it keep alternating 2-1-2-1-2-1... or does the first player only play 2 monsters the first time so the order is 2-1-1-1-1...?

I'd wait for Kevin's thought on this, but I've been playing 2-1-1-1-1...

I also felt that on the whole, Durkon was rather disadvantaged. The way I read Cure Assorted Wounds particularly bothered me. Opon boosting Cure Assorted Wounds once, Durkon heals for 2 points and takes one loot. This seems good, since people will be more likely to agree to let Durkon heal them in exchange for loot. However, a twice boosted Cure Assorted Wounds heals three points and provides Durkon with one loot. This seems to actually be a worse deal for Durkon, as healing for three points does not actually give Durkon much of an advantage. Was the amount of loot Durkon recieves meant to change or not?

The number of Loot paid does not change, no. Generally, the advantage of healing two or three wounds is 1.) increased benefit when you are healing yourself, and 2.) increased desire on the part of other players to be healed by you instead of resting/exiting the dungeon, and thus greater chance that they will spend a Loot on it.

A question about Turn Undead...I haven't encountered this in a game yet, but if Durkon were to kill Xykon with Turn Undead, I'm assuming he'd also take out every other undead monster in the stack--potentially earning bucket-loads of XP to spend on schtiks. So do all of those monsters "die" at the same time Xykon does, or do they get the chance to flee?

Turn Undead specifically says right on the card that you can't use it against Xykon. Treat Xykon as simply not being there for the purpose of using that shtick; the card just ignores him. Note that you CAN use it at Range 0 even if Xykon is the top monster, it just doesn't affect him. Technically, the top monster IS undead, even if it is a monster with a specific immunity to the shtick, making the conditions needed to use the card true. Thus, you can use the shtick.

Turning Xykon's undead out from under him is a great strategy, by the way. You bypass Xykon's ultrahigh Defense because he cannot be affected by the card!

Is the intent of Haley's Second-in-Command shtick the same as Roy's party leader veto in that its only meant to be used at the beginning of your turn?

Yes.

With Fireball, its possible that boosting a fireball could actually _hurt_ Var, by making it too hard for Var to actually kill the monsters in the stack, for example if the best of the first two monsters in the stack had 10 defense, but the third monster had 15 defense, a boost might make it so that Var killed no monsters rather than two or three. A Get Angry! card played by another player might be used to this end. Because of this, should players be able to choose between using a fireball and between a garden variety fireball, or should boosts be forced?

Boosts are not voluntary. A Get Angry! card used in such a manner would be a clever and devious tactic that is 100% legal. Likewise, V could use a card to flip one of his/her own Fireball spells to "unboost" it.

Also, can a player use Poorly Planned Illusion on Xykon's stack without using it on Xykon himself?

No. You still need to contend with Xykon's Attack/Defense, you just don't get to move him if you succeed.

A similar question as the previous poster, can you choose an area effect shtick but not use the area effect?

No, Area Effect is mandatory. Trust me, you wouldn't want to see Vaarsuvius if he/she could turn off Fireball's AE!

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Additionally, the list of what you may or may not do while fleeing the dungeon does not include a ruling on trading in loot for schticks. May you or may you not?

Similarly, may someone assist another player while they are fleeing the dungeon?

No, to both. You may not do anything while fleeing the dungeon other than what is required of you.

If several people are dead and at the dungeon enterance while Xykon is killed how does the BR for fleeing the dungeon work? Do they get 0 because they died? Do all the people who were there when Xykon died tie? Do they retroactively get points in the order they reached the top?

In this extremely unlikely event, the order of play would decide who was first. The first player to get their turn would essentially end it immediately and score as the first player out, then the second player to get their turn, and so on.