[3.5] Fighter Remix: Doin' it old-school

[Okuno]

Okay, I'll leave you alone now.

Yikes, I didn't think I came off that strong <.< Regardless, I consider ideas as highly fungible, so you're not going to offend, and I'm going to stay away from ad hominem myself. (Phone-posting 0.0 Well, I guess they write novels on their phones in Japan...) On the other hand, a paragraph might house a thought, but an argument has several thoughts within. What can I say, I read David Lewis and Richard Fumerton.

Now, and this goes out to everyone, it's boring if I'm not challenged, and I'm not bored. On to argument! and I'm not using the kid gloves either.

I'm not saying to fix saving throws, or change dominate person, or model 2e more, or anything like that.

No, I didn't think so, but that has consequences for what comes later.

Again, I don't see where you're seeing any emotional outpouring in my post;

Ah, but compare what you write below (the numbers we are examining, rather than the traditional ones, btw) to something as qualitative as "poor", and as loaded as "exceptionally". I don't claim you're trying to be emotional (could've made that clearer), but it happens regardless.

Save DCs can get up to around 32 at higher levels, while good saves hover around +20ish.

That means you usually need a roll of 13 to make the save, assuming a +2 in the stat. Drop the save mod by 6, and you need to roll a 19 to make the save.

Now this is what I like to see, and it really solidifies the problem in my mind.

And, FYI, I am looking at it from a game design perspective. I fully support the decision to give fighters better saves due to sound reasons founded on principles of good game design...

Sorry for insinuating; I guess it didn't really come across in the post. I also suppose I take a lot more time to come to a decision than normal, so it look like others are neglecting principles when actually it's just that there are so many, and the system is so complex that applying them is complicated. To be fair, I get the formatting.

Were someone to bring up a mathematical argument...

Oops, tempted the devil. You wanted a mathematical argument? I'll see your math and raise you logic. First: the logic, the structure of which will be universal generalization followed by a demonstration of contradiction, and it'll grant you most of your claims.

You've convinced me that the difference between rolling a 13 or a 19 is too big, you've even done it by using the bare, basic values rather than some opti-ridiculosity. That's all fine and dandy, even likable, but it doesn't just apply to the fighter, does it? Take the rogue, who can succeed brilliantly at dodging fireballs, but has a similar problem resisting poison as the vanilla fighter. Almost every time there's a bad save, I have another example. There are a few classes in the splats that have mid-y saves, those are the exceptions.

So, your argument for the fighter's mid-y will saves applies to almost all other classes. That's an overhaul of the saving throw system. You don't want such an overhaul, as you've stated, and I agree for the present purposes.

So, the question then is whether you're more willing to fix the whole system, or knowingly scrimp on logical consequences. Alternatively, there could be a better argument, but it hasn't been said yet. Now, my solution might be to overhaul the system, but that doesn't work on this thread, so I hope my math will give such an argument.

Indeed, before I do the math, let's check out an unwritten game design principle: know what you want.

As for what's required here, I believe the goal was to make the fighter able to act, not necessarily prevent him from being acted on. I think this because a vanilla fighter is T5, fairly useless, and jikiru wants borderline T3-4.

I always go back to JaronK's definitions, T4 can do one, count 'em one, thing quite well, but poor elsewhere. A T3 is moderately useful elsewhere. So, I think jikiru is aiming for "handed the ability to pound stuff for nothing, but needs a little forethought and building to do other things". Essentially, at this level of balance, you still have to work to be able to do well at more besides just one thing. Stop! Number time:

Take a level 20 jikiru fighter modified for bad will, take Iron Will and let him use his aura to boost his (and his allies! oh, very good ability if you're going up against Saruman) will saves. That's 6+2+5=+13 willsave at level 20 before ability scores, magic items, etc. Add that according to what you describe in your example, and we get at least another +6 for +19. Remember the fighter has some spare cash from not spending it on skill boosters, so the cloak of resistance is essentially free. If you want an elf or dwarf, pretty classy fighters IMHO, we get a bonus vs. enchantment, bringing the save vs. a dominate to at least +21. I've been assuming a pretty MADed-out fighter: just a +1 from wisdom at that level, maybe from a +2 or +4 wis item. That requires a roll of 13(11 for elf/dwarf) to defeat your example wizard. Toss on true grit for what it's worth up there (I do recommend making it more relevant at that level, since no archmage worth his salt is going to daze you when he can turn-coat you. No one wants to get an ability at, whatever it is, ninth level, just to see it get quickly obsolete), not bad at all.

It didn't take much of a build, either: a feat (pocket change for the fighter) and maybe you take a race, add the class features and items you'll get anyway (opportunity cost of all those at most a swift action). The options are all off the top of your head, too. Now, a mage can take iron will, too, but he won't get the aura, the free-ish items, true grit, but that, as much as it's interesting, is not the point. The point is we aren't trying to roll natural twenties. The point is, equally opted, a good will save fighter needs a 7, 13 for a bad save. Is either number is that ridiculous? Lesse: both are easily within a standard deviation from average.

My opinion, and now we really are at opinion, because argument has only best shown neutrality, is that some kits get poor will saves, some of the kits give good will saves (or vases, if you're dyslexic ^o^), let's say: barbarian, commander, disciplined fighter and watchful fighter get the good progression. The last three make sense from the fluff, but for the barbarian, I'll have to show my youthful indiscretions: you can tell when Wulfgar makes a will save, not so much when Drizzt does. Barbarians really could go either way, though, depending on how much of a colonialist or romanticist you are. Still, we end up with a 3-4 split one way or the other for fighters having good/bad (read: silver platter/a little thought) will saves.