Quote Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
This doesn't fix the problem. Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Web, Glitterdust, even Grease make no sense as incantations but are still battle-changers. Haste, Prayer, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and other multi-target short duration buffs also don't generally make sense as invocations due to their short duration and they also have a large effect on battles. Damage spells are more attractive since metamagic is cheaper and easier, but without fixing the spell lists you can't fix the caster v noncaster disparity. This does make it harder to make a wizard with his own army via Planar Binding who is resistant/immune to many things/everything due to layers of buffs, but it doesn't address the root problem: spellcasters have more options than non-spellcasters.

I do like your metamagic change, though it does make spellcasters more powerful.
Sure, but it does address part of the problem. It's impossible (or rather, improbable) to make an easy fix working only with part of the system. As mentioned, spells with short durations or spells that are battle-changers can't make sense as incantations, but they may be dealt with in another way. By all means this isn't the only part of the ruling; it is but a part of the whole. A gestalt solution, if you may.

However, to an extent, it does solve a few things. One of the big problems with the spellcaster is that if it can't do it on its own, it can summon a creature to do so. In this case, it's a bit more cost-effective to have a henchman than to summon the creature, or have an ally that can deal with some of the situations on its own. It can't solve everything because of how the spell system is written; in another attempt to fix, I mentioned that tackling the magic system in order to deal with spellcasters would require creating a new system from scratch, and this is a first step to that. The solution has to be integrated; the challenge is to make it modular (that it can exist on its own and solve something while keeping another which you consider fine and well.

At its extent, spells as incantations deal with a minor, but considerable, deal of problem spells. Increasing the casting time of full spellcasters' spells deals a huge hit to action economy. Both are quite encompassing, but they aren't solutions on their own; however, because some people are used to dealing with things a different way, they may enjoy one part of the fix (as you mention with the metamagic alterations) but not the other (spells as incantations, which you dislike on terms of "not being enough" and "unable to deal with the other problem spells" and "not offering mundanes enough things"). I can't solve giving mundanes enough things by means of reducing magic to near-nothingness; I can make what mundanes DO have a bit more useful than the magic equivalent; to give mundanes more things to play with, it requires revamping the skills and feats to allow them to do so, and that, once again, equals making a new system.

So yes, I understand it can't fix everything. But, being aware I share that point, does it do something reasonable in terms of reducing the power of spellcasters? I can't ask you if it's enough (certainly to you it isn't) but if it's reasonable enough. It allows those spells to remain in game, but it allows the DM greater control over them; a DM could simply make a banlist, but some spells may be necessary for other classes to keep up OR to solve certain situations. That, alongside how spellcasting is intertwined with the entire system, requires creative solutions rather than serious removals. Taking Tier 1 classes out of the game does quite a lot, but Tier 2 classes still remain; taking that still keeps Tier 3 classes, but some options are left out from the wealth of things that the game offers because those options are left out.

As a final point: that doesn't mean other spells won't be dealt with. They just won't be dealt as incantations. BUT, and this is a big word on purpose, they can be treated differently. Haste is a formidable buff, but if you consider its effect, it works better on the meatier classes than on them (the bonus to speed is great, but if they can't move then it's pointless to have such a great boost to speed; furthermore, the +1 bonus to AC is kinda meh, while martial characters get an extra attack which they may exploit differently, such as allowing an extra grapple or trip with one of your iteratives and then the subsequent attack.

As for metamagic: do consider that they're limited to a single metamagic. As per the current rules, you can't Maximize AND Empower AND cast the spell as a standard action; it requires you to choose between one of the three, and with some heavy feat expenditure between two of the three (the only way would be with Metamagic Rods, and that WILL eat your WBL and make you dependent on magic items as much, if not more, than the mundanes). It makes metamagic a bit more attractive, but less powerful on average; two spells as a full-round action at 1st level may be a cause of concern, but you're screwed if the opponents have reach because not even a 5-foot step will save you from the attacks of opportunity; remember that casting on the defensive freely no longer exists. It does require a more tactical application of said abilities, though.

Quote Originally Posted by Drachasor View Post
I have started thinking about a magic fix that would involve treating all spells as "objects." Some of them might count as weapons wielded by the caster, others might count as creatures themselves. They'd all have hit points, etc, etc. Then with feats/class abilities open them up to grapples, disarms, sunder, etc, etc.
Hmm...sorta like Incarnum? Wait...Sense Motive: [roll]1d20+2[/roll] I have no clue why my sarcasm detector is beeping like if it was very happy or something.