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Thread: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

  1. - Top - End - #155
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Yup, humans now have a niche: we are very skilled.
    Humans were already very skilled, and were already the best race from an optimisation standpoint. Now they are the best at any two or three particular things, as well as being the best at "having more skills than anyone else", and they are still the best at most everything else, as they have a two feat advantage.

    I am of the opinion that you (and others) are severely underestimating the value of skills and skillpoints.

    Favoured class Any means Humans are the only class that can pull off a 3/1/1/1 build in any primary class too, if you use favoured class for some reason.

    First, in epic E6, 5 feats are the equivalent of a level.
    My apologies, then I misspoke. Instead they are merely 10,000 Exp ahead of everyone else.

    The main advantage of being non-human - increased attributes beyond human capacity - is gone. Now humans get to boost their primary attribute without losing their secondary attributes; no longer is a 20 the domain of the inhuman.

    disguise self?
    1,800 GP. Changelings, whilst my favourite race, are not a powerful one.

    Gaining powerful build
    Outside of the ability to use larger weapons, this is a single feat.

    With the ability, since wielding larger weapons does not grant larger reach, this is borderline better than Weapon Specialisation so long as you aren't an unarmed combatant or mage who doesn't really do much.

    With a character that intends to avoid being in situations where size modifier is a factor, or where it's irrelevant, then at best this is mediocre, D&D rewards specialisation, and a bonus in something that's not a core focus is almost always worse than a bonus in something that is a core focus.

    Incidentally, since we're assigning value:

    +4 to two skills of your choice? Better than two feats, better than a +4 to a set skill you cannot change.
    Two class skills? Feat - Able Learner allows 1 point rank increases cross class, it doesn't let you boost them as high. Making two skills class skills is therefore a feat.
    Bonus Feat? One Feat.
    Flexible Feat? One and a half feats at least.
    Martial Weapon Proficiency in a single weapon: Technically a feat. Let's call it 1/4 of a feat.
    Metropolitan: Two and a half feats. Noble: A feat. Half-Orc: About a feat and a half. Half-elf: Two feats. Rural: A feat.

    Can't have 2 flex feats, only one. And this guy is devoting a ton of resources on one skill; it should certainly pay rich dividends.
    Misread, sorry. How many resources are they devoting though? A flexible feat they can change at a whim so there's absolutely no opportunity cost? A skill bonus and class skill into the skill they wanted anyway? Skill points which they get more of than anyone else anyway?

    No, they are not devoting a ton of resources into one skill. A +13 is what they get by just investing "as many resources as any other character who maxes a skill", a +16 is what they get for the cost of a daily application of their anyfeat if they know they're going to be using that skill a lot today, a +18 is what they get if they actually devote one feat to it.

    The cool abilities are awesome and fun, skill rolls that belong to level 10 characters? Not quite so in the spirit of things.

    Compare them with the Whisper Gnome, the Drow, the Durogar. Stoutheart halflings get +2 to all saves, that's three feats worth right there. All of the Changeling bloodlines are great. Jotun bloodlines are kind of bland but good.
    Whisper Gnome: Two and a half feats. One of those feats is Dash.
    Duergar: Two and a half feats.
    Stoutheart Halfling: Feat. They are gaining +1 to all saves, not +2. Any level 1 human can take Luck of Heroes for +1 to all saves and +1 to AC.

    Drow: 3-times a day SR (again needs to be changed to immediate action, and brings up awkwardness about awareness about the spell)? This gives a 50% chance of resisting three spells from an equal level spellcaster that doesn't have Spell Penetration, a 35% chance from a spellcaster with it, and a 25% chance from one with Greater Penetration.

    I'd go with one feat. SR 3/day is drastically weaker than SR. You can't boost it, it doesn't scale with actual-threat spellcasters, and SR gets its value by the law of averages - your opponents will sometimes fail the roll through weight of rolling. The net result of this is 1 spell resisted against an equal level caster on average per day. At level 6, this drops to less than 1 spell resisted per day as spell penetration comes into the fore.

    Really? So extra con is never a good idea? I'd suggest making it so that the orcs can cast while they are in a rage, but really, I'd like to make an orc mage. I think it'd be a great idea. And why wouldn't a smart class want a melee boost in combat?
    Extra con whilst you what?

    You get -2 AC, meaning you will take more damage. Barbarians get DR and the highest Hitdie for a reason.
    If you take more than your regular HP, you will still keel over at the end of the rage. If they take enough damage where the rage bonus is actually useful, then they've taken enough damage where they're dying at the end of rage.
    If you rage, you can't use most Cha, Dex or Int skills (aka: Most skills), any ability that requires patience or concentration (as a DM, I would certainly rule out "setting traps" and "activating complex inventions"; I'd be pretty leery of "tapping into encyclopedic knowledge" too).
    A lot of the smart classes would probably like to be smart, something that stops them being smart, makes them more vulnerable to injury, and means they are actually encouraged to split resources to melee (since when all you have is a hammer...). Again, it's better to have a resource that helps you do what you are good at. Resources that make you average at what you are not good at are mediocre.
    On top of that, they become fatigued the moment they drop rage, giving them even more penalties for the rest of the encounter.

    One of his favoured classes is the Red Mage, which he is singly worse at than any other race in the compendium. As a result, the only classes for which Orcs get much utility at all are melee classes, two of which have access to rage anyway.

    True, but together with One With The War Drums (admittedly very hard to get), you are insanely powerful. And it's still a feat. You were recommending skill focus and negotiator above.
    In regular play, Skill Focus is situationally useful for the creation of a skilled character to achieve tricks and advantages normally not available to you.
    In E6, Skill Focus is much more useful because it's at least a 33% bonus to your actual skill ranks, and feats are more freely available.

    In all play, Diehard is a liability that means you die more often than you dying, or offers an ability which can be granted by ranks in Autohypnosis (which the human has as an optional class skill).

    This is actually worse than a feat, because the orc doesn't auto-stabilise, he's just dying whilst still presenting a target.
    With this or with One with the War Drums, in either case applying 1 point of nonlethal damage will render the Orc unconscious anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Never thought it was, and wasn't meant as an insult. I'm still trying to convince you to look at the project as a whole and review, instead of the piecemeal version you are doing.
    There is unfortunately the not small issue of "time" involved here. I may devote several hours to exploring a particular class or archetype, comparing all of them at once requires understanding what each can do.

    Rest assured that as previously stated I shall be comparing both classes and races side by side once I have gone through them individually. Until this point I will still be mentioning issues that place them clearly above what I would consider a reasonable level above high-tier E6 play, or any other issues where they are not to my mind functioning as intended.

    Oof, and if you think Kholai is being brutal, I just got torn a new one over on TGD. Though I think they focus a bit too much on the black mage, they make some good points. Going to need to rebalance quite a bit going forward here.
    My apologies if I do come across as being this negative to anyone, I'm aware that I can come off as rather blunt, but I am trying to be constructive and provide a mechanical perspective.

    And don't worry Gnorman, the party Brawler is way better at holding ground than a giant scorpion - to an insane degree.

    Since there's been nothing on my suggestions for the Sentinel, and the Zealot is similarly under construction, and the Engineer has already been thoroughly examined, I'll be moving onto the Noble next.
    Last edited by Kholai; 2012-08-10 at 07:37 AM.