D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

[1337 b4k4]

Thing is we're not talking about real life, we're talking about game design.

Sure, and games aren't fun if your choices have no meaning. When you design a system where every single possible combination is perfectly balanced against all other possible combinations, you have a game where your choices don't really matter, and that's just not fun.

Thing is we're not talking about real life, we're talking about game design. If Arcane Dabbler is always going to be a useless trap option for a Fighter, then don't let fighters take that feat.

As Dienekes said, there's a wide gulf between useless, and equally balanced for all classes. Every option should have some utility, but there's nothing wrong with the amount of utility you have being a factor of the class you chose. Though perhaps I might see more of your point if you could explain what you consider to be a "useless trap" (in particular, are there any in the current playtest). I ask because I never spent much time with 3.x and I avoid all char op discussion like the plague because it bores me to no end, and because I can't stand to read character descriptions that look like A/B/C/D/E/F/G/H with P, Q, and R feats

[quote]Ideally, pre-selected choices would be unnecessary because optimization should be intuitive and fun even for new players.[quote]

You still need (or should have) pre-packs because there are just some people who don't find optimization fun, no matter how intuitive it is. I have one player in my group for whom just the description of how CS dice work (as written in the playtest) is boring and eye-glazing, having to read through a massive set of skills and feats to decide a character would be worse for them. Much easier just to say "Heres a list of (commonly defined) styles, what would you like".

Incidentally, I would love to see a module or rule option for allowing background-less and specialty-less characters the ability to play with other characters. Perhaps some simple (dissociated) mechanic such as characters without backgrounds and specialties may, 2 times per day (+1 per level or so), add 1d4 (increment 1 die size each 5 levels) to any check or damage roll. Alternatively, just allow them to apply advantage or disadvantage to any roll (including the DM's rolls)

So we have an example of some abilities that wouldn't be good to get when multiclassing because of level-dependent variables and lack of usefulness when they're not relevant to your primary schtick, and some abilities that could be good to get when multiclassing because they're level- and class-independent and expand your capabilities rather than competing with them. If you're going to make abilities that should be in theory equally accessible to and viable for any class, they should be more like the latter than the former. There's no sense in making specialties like the former, because other classes aren't going to take them in the vast majority of cases; those are good candidates for class-specific features like combat styles or traditions, where they can be tied into other class abilities better and where they'll see more use.

Ah, now here we can generally agree. I think most of the (lower level) specialties and the feats should be largely static (if they're numeric at all) abilities and bonuses. Doesn't mean certain classes still won't benefit from them more than others.

On the other hand, there's a good argument to be made that dividing your power, attention or training over multiple things absolutely generate a situation were you aren't nearly as good as the specialist, and your also taking away from your specialties too. This is how life is, you can't do everything, and so I generally have no issue with the fact that it is mechanically possible to generate a jack of all trades and master of none. Mastery comes from specialization, and versatility has its costs. Of course, I also strongly believe in randomly generated stats, so a high STR, DEX, CON and INT fighter should be within the realm of possibility, and I certainly think they should be better at dabbling in magic than the fighter with low INT. The fact that they're rarer and harder to get is to me a feature, not a bug.