To the two or three people making biologically deterministic arguments:

Let's take it to PMs and keep it away from the thread.

Quote Originally Posted by Astrella View Post
Re; above. I think it's because minority characters tend to stick out more? Like, a character being straight for example tends to be seen as default so we don't attach as much mental space to that as a character being queer. Same with male vs. female characters.
Yeah, this is what I've been saying from the start too. Marginalised groups (or anything that deviates from what is considered the "default" of society) are constantly demanded a reason to exist.

Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
So, yeah. It's not unreasonable for me to have concluded at that point that I was not cut out to write female characters beyond the most cursory surface treatment, other than Haley herself. And as we've seen on this thread, my portrayal of her has still gotten crap.
The thing is, while I understand the Catch-22 of your situation, it's also a Catch-22 for us. We have to accept erasure ("because at least we weren't awful stereotypes") or poor representations ("because at least we are shown to exist"), and we still have to be exceedingly mindful of whatever criticism we make, or else we're accused of being perpetually unhappy, hypersensitive and overreacting, which leads most of us to bite our tongues and make do with the table scraps we get thrown our way.

And whenever we raise the issue of representation, the flamestorms start a-brewin', most of it coming from privileged groups who don't understand what I explained in the paragraph above, and who think we want to censure and content-control.

It's kind of tricky to educate writers and bring our hopes and dreams to them under that climate. It's like trying to give a stranger your baby, but before doing so, you have to navigate a minefield.

Also, I fully agree with Themrys, Miko and Celia were not your fault. They were entirely the result of a fanbase who holds women to much higher standards than others and (this is important) has an incredible reluctance to see women as proper antagonists. You lampshaded this very thing with the MitD after Tsukiko's death. Nobody cared about her. She was an antagonist in name only. Miko and Celia? They weren't considered antagonists (and I use antagonist to mean "forces that oppose the protagonists", not "villains").

Celia took so much hatred because her actions were perceived as unnecessary. She wasn't seen as a force of antagonism the way Kubota or Tarquin were, she was seen as a constant obstacle that got Haley into trouble (despite the fact that Belkar has done far, far, far worse, and used to be one of the main antagonistic forces in the comic before he had his fake character development. Or Elan, who was a very close match for Celia's "airheaded decision-making"), and people wanted her out of the narrative because they refused to see her as a viable antagonistic force. She was not given the respect that a man in her role would have garnered.

Miko? This one doesn't have as much sexism as Celia's. Here the main "problem" is that you dared to question the sanctity of the paladin. You dared to portray a paladin going stone-cold mad and subsequently Falling, in the world of D&D. You touched a lot of nerves with that, and I think it was absolutely awesome. I firmly believe that if Miko had been a man, you would have had at least 50% of the trouble you had with her, if not 70% or so. The rest is most definitely sexism, for most of the same reasons cited above with Celia.

Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
@SowZ: Woman are 50% of the population. It is impossible for a man to not know any women - unless his mother died early and he was raised in a monastery- while it is possible to not know any gay people very good (or not know any gay people you know are gay).
Hey. Hi.

Since we are all being polite in this thread, minding our words and arguments and whatnot, could I ask you to please stop making the argument that some marginalised groups innately or naturally deserve more inclusion or representation than others? Because you're repeatedly coming off as somewhat homophobic. I am as much of a supporter of women being represented and empowered in the media as you, and yet I somehow manage to make my arguments without the implications you repeatedly make.

Thanks.