Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?

[heavyfuel]

I disagree with your assessment, but in the end it's just opinions.

The baseline Crusader isn't the strongest of the ToB classes (that goes to the Warblade), however, Crusader does have the highest optimization ceiling. If you look into the Idiot Crusader concept, you'll see just how ripe for abuse the Crusader's recovery mechanic really is.

As far as Devoted Spirit being the worst of the unique schools, it's my opinion that it's actually, overall, one of the strongest of the unique schools at its baseline. It provides mundane (Ex) healing while allowing the Crusader to also deal damage, providing one of the most effective combat healing methods in the game. It's biggest asset though are its stances, which are unfortunately easy to put aside seeing Crusader's extremely poorly thought out stance progression. However from the first level to the end, Devoted Spirit stances are typically some of the best in ToB. Martial Study allows unlimited out of combat healing, Iron Guard's Glare actually allows you to give an enemy a reason to attack you, Thicket of Blades is a must-have for melee lock-down, Aura of Chaos when utilized with large dice pool damage (such as sneak attack) can substantially increase average damage, Aura of Perfect Order provides a way to mitigate RNG, something optimizers will tell you is extremely important for creating a very powerful character, and Stance of Immortal Fortitude, which is just really powerful right on the tin.

I also disagree with your assessment of Righteous Strike of Vitality, and I believe it's one of the more powerful 9th level maneuvers. Typically healing in combat is considered a waste of an action unless it's the spell Heal. Heal generally provides enough HP boost/status effect relief that it can be a useful choice over damage. Strike of Righteous Vitality not only lets you cast Heal, it does so as an Ex ability, and lets you damage your opponent simultaneously.

Now, these are my opinions, and they're no more or less valid than yours. But with the Crusader's optimization ceiling being the highest of the bunch, it's hard for me to say it is the weakest.

You make some good points and the only ne I trully disagree is the Idiot Crusader one (and the eventual d2 Crusader argument as well). As I see, both of these builds are TO and if you want to use this argument, then Paladin 1 is the strongest build in the game. Abusable mechanics don't make for solid classes, they make cheddar filled 5ft cubes of meat with sharp edges that no sane DM would allow .

I also think that (Ex) healing is overrated. Out of combat healing is really cheap and during combat there are better things to do. The only really good use of it would be inside and AMF. While good, I don't think it justifies being dubbed "one of the strongest of the unique schools".

While I wholeheartedly agree that the stances are awesome Crusaders get so few stances and since you're only able to use one at a time you're forced with choices that you sometimes can't afford to make. Thicket of Blades or Ironguard's glare? At lower levels that -4 on attacks can pretty much be the difference between life and death, but dishing out extra AoO can be too. While Aura of Law is good, "taking 11" once per turn on an attack only forces more choices between which stance to use. Protect your allies vs deal more damage. You have to choose between protecting your allies and killing your foes, but since you're a tank, you should choose the former, making the latter less useful. If what you want is to kill everyone quickly, the Warblade and Swordsage are better suited for you. Also, both of these classes are more "selfish" per se. They pretty much only need to focus on themselves during combat and what benefits themselves the most to do well in a fight (this last bit should be taken with a grain of salt of course)

I wouldn't call our campaign "high op", but it's definitely "above average op". Last time I played I had Duskblade dealing ~250 DPR at lv 16. While not as optimized as some characters I've seem in the forum such as the ubercharger or the mailman, I'm pretty sure he was dealing more damage than what was expected of him by the designers. So, healing 150 (maybe) at a minimum lv of 17 isn't really wonderful. It's decent, but doesn't really qualify for "best maneuver"

I'd say Crusaders probably have a lower optimization ceiling than other ToB classes, at least without RKV and TO tricks like the idiot/d2 Crusader. If you're in a high-op campaign where rocket tagging for 600 DPR in melee is the norm, some healing won't help you. However, in a mid-op campaign, they're a very solid class. I've played with them and DMed for them and they just don't die. Currently, I'm DMing for a party of tier 3 characters and the party Crusader can facetank opponents that would kill other party members in a single round.

Yes, it seems people that say crusaders are OP are the same people that use WR tactics to get infinite attacks per round.

As for rocket tag, it's as I replyed to Aegis. I wouldn't call our campaign "high op", but it's definitely "above average op". Last time I played I had Duskblade dealing ~250 DPR at lv 16. While not as optimized as some characters I've seem in the forum such as the ubercharger or the mailman, I'm pretty sure he was dealing more damage than what was expected of him by the designers. So healing 150 (maybe) at a minimum lv of 17 isn't really wonderful. It's decent, but doesn't really qualify for "best maneuver"

Your assessment of CHA being the worst mental stat is largely true for a combat expert, but I feel like the class ability exists exactly to offset that and make it weigh equally to wis. And, in my personal opinion, CHA has nicer skills attached than Wis.

That is true, but it's also true that the Crusader is supposed to be a Combat Expert/Tank. If you want to be the party's face, there are tons of WAY better classes for that... Heck, Warblades probably are a better face due to their increased skill pts and Know. (local) which gives them bonuses to Gather Info.

Forget Devoted Spirit's healing. This is the school that lets you hit enemies so hard they can't attack your allies, make AoOs even on 5-foot steps (and possibly against tumbling enemies), make all attacks against anyone other than you take a fairly large penalty, and take 11 on any roll. The healing just makes it so that when you do get hit (it's your job, after all) it doesn't put you down. These are all things that make crusader the only viable tank in the game.

When you add in White Raven it just gets better.

I'll grant you that natively crusaders have somewhat dissynergistic ability score requirements, but remember that ToB is very dip friendly, so dipping Marshal for Charisma to initiative, Bard for Charisma to Attack, or something similar is absolutely feasible. And of course you don't get a ton out of Charisma natively, allowing you to focus entirely on the physical stats if you prefer.

Only works if you actually hit, which means Stone Power probably won't be used. AoO are only provoked from you, which means you need high-ish Dex. Can't be used with Thicket of Blades.

Warblades also have White Raven and are arguably better at using it what with Song of the WR and enough skill points to get some ranks in Perform.

The Cha synergy really becomes pretty useless because they're so MAD with needing Str, Dex, Con, (some) Int and Cha.

Not being able to access Diamond Mind is, IMO, Crusader's greatest weakness relative to other ToB classes.

I thought about this but totaly forgot to put it in the OP. For the cost of one readied maneuver the Warblade can have all of his saves decent. Good Fort, Ok Refx and Awesome Will!


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All in all, I still think Crusaders are weaker than the other 2 classes. While definitely stronger than a similarly optimized fighter and still less MAD than the paladin, I haven't shaken the idea that the Warblade is superior in almost every aspect and that the Swordsage is fluffier and more versatile

But thanks the answers everyone!