How much should an RPG have rules for social interaction?

[AMFV]

That's not the same thing though; Even spending "luck" or "edge" or whatever only changes the outcome of the roll. You can't say "Okay, I'm going to try to climb the wall.' and then spend some points and end up sneaking past the guards instead. The Declare Intent > Roll (> Modify Roll)> Play out results is present in the vast majority of games; Apparently Legends of Wulin does it differently, but that's the only one I know of.

Well normally the luck type things allow you to retract things that you'd have done. Like premonitions or whatnot.

If you are doing it as a creative outlet, that's one thing, but if you're really trying to FIX the game, you're playing the wrong game.

Maybe, or maybe not. Some people have fixer-upper cars, some people have fixer upper houses. But they don't want new ones, they love the old ones, and the fixing is part of the fun for them, that's part of why they love the things.

I call BS; Let's get some economists in here. :P The thing about monopoly is that your decisions matter only a tiny bit compared to luck, so the "skill" involved is minimal at best and mostly draws on the 'playing monopoly' skill.

Clearly, you've never played Monopoly with some of the same folks I have, I've had games of monopoly that included selling things back for percentages of rent, and such. Negotiations with alliances and such.

There are games in which the element of skill is functionally irrelevant.

Other than games that are entirely luck, no there aren't.

Immersion, to me, doesn't really enter into it.

But for other people it does.

That.... seems quite unlikely to me. Well, okay, it's actually super likely if you ACTUALLY MEAN "freeform games' but you probably don't.

I was speaking of true freeform, as in collaborative storytelling stuff.

YOU were the one that brought up original D&D and "roll 3d6 six times in order"; That's zero customization, and therefore, zero minmaxing. The only thing you get to choose about your character is their class, maybe their spells, and how to spend their starting cash, which basically boils down to "The best armor and weapon I can afford and some other random stuff". I think it's absurd to state that you have no agency in that game, however. Customization has NOTHING to do with agency. Players can still have agency in a one shot with pregens even though in that case there is LITERALLY zero customization. You are connecting two things that are not at all equivalent.

Race, Class, Nonweapon Proficiencies (if those are in effect), Weapon Proficiencies. Multi-Classing, Dual-Classing. That seems like an awful lot of customization. Furthermore you are STILL arguing that skill and systems mastery only applies to character creation and not playing the game.

And I wouldn't consider either of those system mastery, since, at the end of the day, they don't involve knowing the system.

It absolutely is system mastery, it involves learning the phrases that are most likely to convince others. The things that people are most likely to discuss or be convinced by, not all system mastery is knowing the game, sometimes it's knowing what works best in the game.

Really depends on the game and the GM, don't you think? If you spend a ton of time in the wilderness, your diplomacy skill is worth crap and your ability to climb might be extremely relevant.

Exactly as I said.

That's not system mastery. Coming up with a clever way to solve a problem in the game fiction is NOT system mastery. It's just being clever. Anyone can be clever. Only people with past experience with a game can have system mastery.

Edit: Re D&D diplomacy - you're right, I remember reading about that and thinking it was the dumbest thing imaginable. Another reason to not play that game, I guess.

Knowing that undead cause ability damage is system mastery. Knowing that dungeons are full of traps (when in the real world they aren't) is system mastery. Knowing that dragons are greedy is system mastery. Knowing how to be clever in a particular situation is system mastery.

Edit: Look you clearly are convinced that your preferences are the only acceptable ones, and that's fine. But you should know that there are people with other preferences, and those are also valid. Just because you can't understand why somebody else likes something or why it's fun for them doesn't mean it's not genuinely fun for them.