Minimum caster levels

[sideswipe]

i am comfortable with all levels of optimisation. i love playing low op.

another point is i understand that you will never find an ur priest who wants to sit in and make cheap scrolls. what i was saying was that to those who were saying the lowest caster levels acceptable were the wiz/cleric ones were wrong and i was answering your point about "DM fiat only" to allow things which are pretty clearly intended was a very strong ban hammer. essentially saying that if i wanted to play an ur priest i would not get its benifits because i would need to ask my DM to fiat getting spells early at a lower caster level.

i love my low-mid op games with no huge amounts of the BAN hammer.

It's actually pretty realistic. The percentage of Ur-Priests and Sublime Chords in the world is going to be DRASTICALLY less than that of Sorcerers and Clerics. The majority of scrolls and wands would be crafted by the more common classes. If you wanted to buy a scroll from an Ur-Priest, I would ask you to explain how you found one, and convinced them to sell you a scroll. They aren't exactly a dime-a-dozen, especially in a world where not worshiping a god consigns you to an eternity of torment in the Abyss.

I mean, if the campaign was centered around them? Or your character WAS one? Absolutely. But in most settings, you're not going to find an Ur-Priest in your friendly neighborhood magic shop. You're going to find a Wizard.

the point i was saying was not that they would be common but that it is fully within the rules for such things to exist. and not (see above for ban hammer rant on non wiz/cleric)