Cultures -- Multiple Pan-Asian sources in a WELL DONE "mashup"

[Max_Killjoy]

Sidebar discussion involving the Twilight People / "Zath":

Okay issues come up with certain things. This all seems great in theory but the details seem REALLY problematic Sure Zath's have long lives but they don't have that more hours in a day. They don't more mental headtime to focus on problems like knowing the reputations of everyone coming in and out of the community and how much they should be trusted....and so would still want to outsource that kind of thing to social trust issue. Because a shafting you neighbor may not be good if you have a long future it may well seem fine to do so next city over - especially if the neighbor benefits from you doing it.

What's the difference between "I can't shaft this guy because it's wrong and also others will find out and not trust me any more"... and "social trust"?

Well that is probably good for everyone....but I was meaning they are set up to do so at a distance. Carve up Future Gondwanaland type.

Distant colonies?

The last time they went out in the broader world and tried to set up in far away locations, the war happened. They're OK with the Choumin (who are dedicated to their Storm God) , and the humans in their own territory (who are largely refugees from past religious strife elsewhere and want nothing to do with zealots and "jihads"), and some others, but anywhere else there's too much chance of some local sun cult flaring up in outrage or some other nonsense happening.

And they don't have the numbers, and their culture doesn't really support domination, and so on.

okay so that

That looks a bit like one of my "I'll go back and finish that thought later" moments.

Okay I think I just had them as Very long lived (700 years or so) vs ageless. But this still has issues when you think of things like say balancing how they get a child to integrate into the society (since the you mind your business model would allow individuals to be VERY different-especially as they could grow that way over a few centuries)

The child is surrounded by adults who are all within the general scope of the culture, some of them who've been part of making that culture for a very long time, not to mention sharing the same core "Zathness" in the same way most humans share a certain core "humanness". I guess it hadn't occurred to me that there'd be much drift or differentiation.

Then how do they choose merit....always the kicker that. Exams? Reputation? If the former who decides what is on the tests? The latter would mean that power goes not just to those who ARE good but those who are THOUGHT to be good at something by a group of people who probably don't know much about the skill in question. Such things would shift how power is grown in such a society. And that is just two ideas.

To start with, it's not about power... typically a "Zath" in a position we'd call "leadership" views it as a responsibility, not an opportunity to exercise power. Telling others what to do is viewed as more of a burden than an opportunity. And others aren't looking to figure out where they "fit" in terms of power, they're looking for a "leader" who knows what they're doing, and mutual respect.

Okay I still don't see why they wouldn't have religious traditions even if they have no need to worship. Transcendentalism would seem to be a natural draw for example. Or even philosophies of self actualization would fill that social role. . . such things like mental training learning ones own nature, subconscious (in order in part to gain an understanding of it and thus ones own drives and weaknesses) or guided hallucinations in order to gain a wider perspective or monastic-like experiences to lend focus to mental discipline.

The sense of being apart from the world (since it is a fact) would make how they choose to engage with the world a philosophical action. One that there could well be deep divisions on.

This would very much seem like religion to outsiders. And would fill much of the intellectual and social role of religion.

It also doesn't mean that there are churches to such things. But respected councilors and philosophers with social groups based around meditation circles, extreme experiences, discussion and debate social groups etc would be likely even if one's own internal philosophies development is a largely private business.

also really charismatic/skilled teachers philosophers etc would thus be likely to be influential individuals.

Honestly, I just do not understand the appeal of or need for religion, faith, belief, etc -- or what other people get out of ceremony and ritual -- and in part I wanted at least one "species" in one of my fantasy settings that I didn't need to "fake up" a belief system for. And given that they're a very empirical people in a low context culture, and that they know exactly how they came to be, and that their "gods" are dead... I just don't see why they'd have any use for religion or the related branches of philosophy.

Okay sounds great for an individual (particularly as I VERY much am that individual) but does make me ask how dispute resolution occurs. And how they define the boarders of one's own business. Because living in a shared society even ones own identity is tied up in people around you. Lots of mutual responsibilities etc.

To begin with, when someone wants to justify getting their nose in someone else's affair's the first thing that others are going to ask is, "How does this effect you?" or "What do you stand to lose or gain here?" If there's no tangible impact, no actual connection, that can be pointed to, then the nose-sticker isn't going to get anywhere.

Painting the inside of their house some "odd" color isn't anyone else's business. Putting up a ramshackle awning that might fall onto the road and hit a passerby is. Dumping something in the river that might hurt people downstream is other people's business, particularly everyone downstream. Who they "spend their evenings with" isn't anyone's business unless one or both parties is violating an oath made to a third party, in which case it's that third party's business. Etc.

Well that gets part of it. But questions of Sun People are a long term threat (one day they are going to get it into their heads to have another crusade) and must be A Converted to a tributary people, B made to like us by various means C made sure they never get the strength to challenge our military superiority. etc. D others I have not though of yet That is something that I could see lots of Zath's having a viewpoint on and that being reflected within their electors etc.

Also a culturally shared idea of what is beauty would come up in the idea of what is worth saving etc. Could have a very nice side-effect of the cultured nature type gardens on a rather vast scale.

Technically, the Sun People are dead, it's just that there are quite a few human followers of the sun deity who took the place of the two creators in the pantheon, especially in the Rasenna Republic, etc.

Errr..... Are you still using the Silurian Age map? If you want to put it on one map the twilight people are basically are on the northernmost point of land in the world except for a bit on an island chai that looks to be a continuation of the storm people's main chain. So I don't see where you get Crossroads of the World.....

And considering so many people (all others being sun worshiper based and having what appears to be cautious long term nature) having an ancestral dislike of them I would think they would want to avoid ever being dependent on them for something as critical as food (since food shortages would be something that could kill them) and since they would want really reliable food having it stored for a couple years probably wouldn't phase them at all. And thus learn how to do so. . .

But yeah you do seem to stuck them in the donkey end of the world.....unless you want to change the map (which if you need/want them at said crossroads go for it)

The Silurian map wasn't ever more than an illustration of the general idea for the size and scope of the Choumin-controlled island chain.

The Choumin aren't sun-worshipers, beyond recognizing him as part of their pantheon, they're called the Storm People for a reason. And there are other cultures where the sun deity is just one of many.

It's not that they're depending on outsiders for food, it's that they have a very wide range of tastes because of all the trade that passes by, goes through the "dark cities", etc.

Other issues.....
I'm thinking about your Gaunt Baker. . . or chimney sweep....rope minder 2nd class in the navy....or even most farmers.....and things are not quite gelling. The alchemists, explorers, spies etc The intellectuals seem to work all right. But look at the incentives on say a baker in this society. Highly individualistic, social system does draw one in as much as gives space, given large amounts of training as a child and with forever to deal with the same baking routine....Sure he could want a bigger more profitable bakery that would give him more time for other non-work things but that just puts the question down to why those he employs do what they do. . . And if EVERYONE has these incentives it would drive some really nasty competition since an eternal future raises the stakes (since success can give you tools to put towards tilting the field for further competitive success).....Also doesn't seem to have a real socio-spiritual-philosophical reason to stay a baker .... Also it would make leaving and developing a resource base OUTSIDE the society really appealing...what the Gaunts are set up to be good at they would be able leverage far more effectively in a society unlike themselves - it sets a max on how much any Zath would put up with. (hmmm these expat Gaunts could be a whole separate issue really)
Because the work of those who are doing farming, or baking, etc are necessary infrastructure for the rest of their community if it is not done everyone gets harmed.....
Also when you are ageless without deep religious or tribal bonds etc what draws them too dangerous jobs like Logging, Fishing, or the Military?
It basically seems like you need them to be post industrial revolution in order for the issues to even be partially addressed...part of why I came up with the shadow powered helpers idea.

The baker is probably doing it for the love of the craft, because they're good at it, because they make a good living at it, etc.

There are people in the real world who do things like recover old log-built cabins and barns, and use the timbers to build new houses using a lot of the old original techniques. It's hard and sometimes dangerous work, but they do it because they want to save that history, and they love working with those old giant timbers, and so on.

This doesn't necessarily explain the guy on the ropes or the chimney sweep, but I'm picturing them as having some mechanical aids that make their jobs a lot less risky and a lot less grinding.

As I noted in the previous post, I've been debating something like the "shadow helpers" idea you suggested for a long time. There would probably be multiple tiers, with the really dangerous work being done by mindless drones, and then some other things done by something a touch closer to Eberon's mechanical people (warforged?), but more with a more clockwork/alchemy vibe.