WoW XX: It's Not A Recolor, It's An Original Thread

[Psyren]

Okay, what qualities are those, again, exactly? Because I'm not trying to make a semantic argument, the games you list all lack qualities that I like about MMORPGs: Namely, a deep crafting system, in-game reputations, mounts, cool unlockables, a world you can explore with depth, an inter-player economy, really, just a fully realized setting where you get engrossed, rather than a shared lobby in front of some instanced content.

Well actually, Firefall and Warframe do have every quality you just listed (except for one in Warframe's case, namely the shared wide open world) in addition to mine. But my list was:

"Well you could ask the exact same bolded question of games like Destiny and Warframe (and Anthem and Firefall and Em8er and...), and my answer would be the same to you there - the MMO format provides long-term progression/rewards, an evolving world/story - and yes, community (I'm not opposed to it, I just think it should be more tightly regulated than it is now.)"

And as it happens, I like your list too - but more as "nice to have" than "integral to the experience." Stuff like mounts and rep grinds and cool unlockables are easy to add after the fact (see Guild Wars 2.) "Deep crafting" I can take or leave, it's largely busywork. All you really need for a player economy is to enable trading and they'll do the rest (see Warframe, which doesn't even have an AH.)

Sure, hence my "let's put in a difficulty slider or AI director" recommendation, and give people better tools to coordinate without having to jump on the mic.

The latter I agree with wholeheartedly. It's the former I think would be tricky to implement in a way that feels good.

Eh, I think that's an unfair argument. Yes, CoH is gone now, and WoW is still around, but CoH lasted 8 years during WoW's heyday, from 2004 through 2012, on a game that launched earlier, in a genre (Superheroes) that hadn't quite hit pop culture stride.

*snip*

Oh, I'm not saying that CoH's definitely loot system led to its failure. I'm sure there were other (and possibly more pertinent) factors too. It just makes it more difficult to use that as an example proving it works.

Eh, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't feel disempowered when playing L4D, unless I get screwed by dumb teammates throwing. Sure, it's the zombie apocalypse, but I've got a deagle and a shotgun, and enough ammo to see me to the next safe house. Might I lose and get beat? Sure, but that's why it's fun. If you can't lose, winning gets boring. I don't see any reason WoW should be any different, and being stronger means you can fight off larger hordes of tougher foes, which an AI director can throw at you if it detects you're sleepwalking through the dungeon.

It's not so much about "you can't lose" as it is redefining what winning and losing even mean. WoW is a power fantasy, and so "winning" means crushing bosses and (full-)clearing trash like the badass you are. In L4D meanwhile, winning just means survival, and trying to eradicate the hordes completely is a great way to end up with your brains spread on a zombie's ritz cracker. The AI director works because it was designed with that in mind, and so it is capable of recognizing that anyone standing around trying to feel powerful and rack up their zombie body count probably needs a wake-up call so they can start fleeing for their lives again.

Throwing that into WoW would only ruin the fantasy it's trying to deliver on. In WoW, we're the special agents sent in to quell the Stockade riot, or bring Van Cleef to justice by the sword, or shut down a cult operation. There are specific dungeons where running for our lives is fun (Halls of Reflection final boss) but those should be the exception, not the rule.