Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
I'm afraid I don't understand the distinction you're drawing, here in the bolded part.

Evard's Black Tentacles create magical tentacles with the property of killing things. Animate Dead creates (magical?) undead creatures with the property of killing things. (It's right there in their MM fluff.) Evard's Black Tentacles clearly and unambiguously gives the Necromancer back HP every time they kill something. Animate Dead does not, because the spell is instantaneous and creates skeletons instead of killing things.

That's exactly analagous to Goodberry AFAICT. It's not reasonable to rule that one instantaneous spell counts its effects as part of the spell (even though the spell is over) and the other one does not. [1]

In both cases, the created objects last indefinitely. Goodberries can still be eaten after the 24-hour window elapses (but no longer heal). Skeletons can still kill things after the 24-hour window elapses (but no longer on command).

Is it weird that Grim Harvest gives you HP back from Evard's Black Tentacles but not from Animate Dead?[2] Yes, it's somewhat weird. But that's how 5E is written: very jargon-centric, with not much explanation in roleplaying terms. I guess[3] we're meant to assume that the tentacles are the physical manifestation of congealed magical energy (which vanishes if the energy is cut off), and that the magical energy maintains a connection back to the Necromancer which he can siphon life energy off of. That's not true of Animate Skeleton: there is no ongoing flow.[4]

Is it weird that Disciple of Life gives you extra HP back from Aura of Vitality and Cure Wounds but not from Goodberry? Yes, it's somewhat weird. But I guess[3] we're meant to assume that the Aura and the Cure spells maintain a flow of healing energy back to the cleric (which vanishes if the energy is cut off) which he can use for extra healing. That's not true of Goodberry: there is no ongoing flow.

YMMV.
Sorry for the delay in response. My anniversary was Monday, and this is the first chance I’ve had to think over your response and craft a (hopefully) coherent response.

[1]. You are seeing the fact that Animate Dead is an Instantaneous spell while Evard’s Black Tentacles as being the significant factor whether Grim Harvest can be applied, and using that as the argument why Disciple of Life can not trigger.

I have two arguments against this.

The first is that being an Instantaneous Duration Spell is not the significant difference between Evard’s Black Tentacles and Animate Dead.

Instantaneous
Many spells are instantaneous. The spell harms, heals, creates, or alters a creature or an object in a way that can’t be dispelled, because its magic exists only for
an instant.

EVERY spell that is Instantaneous has the property that the effect of the spell is impossible to be dispelled, because the magic of the spell lasts only for an instant.

This is as true whether the effect or creation lasts for a moment itself, or is permanent like a skeleton created by Animate Dead. If your theory is correct then we would end up with situations like this:

Player: I killed the orc with a 1st level Magic Missle, so I get two Hit Points back from Grim Harvest.

DM: Not so fast. It’s an Instantaneous Spell, so the spell creates the magical Darts and then the spell ended. The Darts created by the spell killed the orc, not the spell.

Player: What?!

DM: The spell lasts for just an instant. By the time Darts had streaked across the field to hit the orc, the spell was already over. The Darts are the effect of the spell, not the spell itself, see?

I do not think this is how it is supposed to work.

So what is the significant difference between Evard’s Black Tentacles and Animate Dead? The intrinsic nature of the spells.

The intrinsic nature of Evard’s Black Tentacles is to damage and restrain. Anything that enters into the area of the spell is attacked by the tentacles. All they do is attack. Despite requiring the concentration of the caster, they can not be made to do anything other than attack. The caster cannot, for example, direct the tentacles to yank weapons out of the hands of someone in the Tentacles area of effect, or ignore an ally that was pushed into the area.

Restraining and dealing damage is central to what the spell does.

In contrast, the intrinsic nature of Animate Dead is to give unlife to a corpse / Skeleton, and put that creature under your control. A skeleton that has no orders will do nothing except defend itself unless attacked.

Say a necromancer helps kill a dragon and it’s dragon cultists. The party realizes that the dragon’s hoard is too large for them to carry. So the Necromancer casts Animate Dead on some cultists to create zombies to carry more loot back to town. Then, while celebrating back at the Inn, the now drunk Necromancer has the undead act as backup dancers while he sings and dances about a night that was thrilling.

This is just as much a way to use the Animate Dead as sending it into combat with enemies. Obeying orders like under the full control option of a Dominate Spell is central to what the spell does, not doing damage.

(Related question. Would you rule that a creature ordered to attack under the effects of Dominate Person be able to trigger Grim Life? I would not).

So, do you see where I see a distinction now? A spell can do damage and kill, without it being an intrinsic part of the spell. With Telekinesis, you can move things around, but it does not do damage. But if you pushed a creature off a cliff with the spell, it could die from the falling damage. The spell effect caused the death, but would not, I believe, trigger Grim Harvest.

Healing is Intrinsic to the Goodberry spell just as much as dealing damage is intrinsic to Evard’s Black Tentacles. Someone has to eat the berry to receive the healing. Someone must likewise be in the area of effect to take damage from the tentacles.

Compare the Intrinsic nature of the spells instead of the duration, and you should see the first difference.

[2] it does not seem weird to me, because I see a logical distinction between the two spells

[3] Since D&D Magic has no real life counterpart, we are all guessing how it works. And because the description of how magic works is deliberately vague, we are all guessing from incomplete information. The problem is Confirmation Bias. Once we have gotten an idea how something is, all new information is judged by how well it fits our currently held beliefs.

So when - for a non random example - JC says that DoL works on Goodberry, the natural human response is to go “That does not fit how I belief the system works, he must have made a mistake”. It is difficult to instead to entertain the idea “That does not fit how I believe the system works, maybe I don’t understand it as well as I thought.”

[4]Magical flow is your theory of what Grim Harvest and Disciple of Life are interacting with.

Now we get into the second reason why Grim Harvest and Animate Dead are not a good argument for whether Goodberry can be affected by Disciple of Life. DoL and GH are different abilities. Similar, but not the same. Looking at the abilities side by side, along with the Life Domain Blessed Healer helps illustrate the difference.

Disciple of Life
Also starting at 1st level, your Healing Spells are more effective. Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell’s level.

Blessed Healer
Beginning at 6th level, the Healing Spells you cast on others heal you as well. When you Cast a Spell of 1st level or higher that restores hit points to a creature other than you, you regain hit points equal to 2 + the spell’s level.

Grim Harvest
At 2nd level, you gain the ability to reap life energy from creatures you kill with your spells. Once per turn when you kill one or more creatures with a spell of 1st level or higher, you regain hit points equal to twice the spell’s level, or three times its level if the spell belongs to the School of Necromancy. You don’t gain this benefit for killing constructs or undead.

All three abilities follow the same pattern. The first sentence says what level the ability comes online, followed by a simple description of the ability. The second sentence gives the game mechanics and includes the phrase “a spell of 1st level or higher”.

To me, the way they are so similar makes the differences stand out. .

DoL triggers when you USE a spell to restore hit points.

BH triggers when you CAST a spell to restore hit points to a creature other than the caster.

Both abilities alter the effects of healing spells. But since the trigger language is different, wouldn’t it be sensible to agree that just because a healing spell has triggered one ability, it won’t always trigger both?

Use is a VERY generic keyword. One of the arguments against Goodberry getting the DoL bonus is that when the spell is cast, it does not heal, it creates berries that heal (and nourish). But that is how Blessed Healer is written, not DoL.

For example, a 1st level party has just ended a combat, and are low on life. More enemies are trying to break down the door. A 1st level Human Life Cleric with the [Magic Initiate] feat casts uses his last slot to cast Goodberries, and divides them out. Everyone eats some berries, and regains Hit Points and are nourished.

Was the spell used to restore Hit Points? Yes. If the spell had not been cast, no HP could have been restored. Does it matter that the healing did not happen at the time of casting? No. If it did, that would have been specified like in Blessed Healer. If a spell is used to restore Hit Points, it qualifies.

If the cleric was level 6 and cast Goodberry, then Blessed Healer would not be able to trigger, because that DOES require the healing to target someone other than the caster when the spell is cast. It has a more restrictive trigger than DoL

Grim Harvest triggers when you kill with a spell. The language is not quite as loose as DoL. If it followed the model of DoL and said “Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to kill a creature” then i would say the two abilities could be used to make statements of the if “If GH can’t trigger in situation x, then DoL can’t either,” variety.

DoL provides bonus healing to all 1st level spells or higher without further limit. Single target, multiple targets, ongoing healing effects, or even delayed healing, there is no further restriction.

BH provides healing to the caster only when casting the spell heals someone other then the caster. If multiple allies are healed in a mass healing spell, the cleric only receives the bonus healing once. If a spell is providing healing over the course of several rounds, BH is not triggered on those later rounds.

GH triggers when a spell kills a creature. It can only trigger once a turn. But an ongoing spell could trigger GH multiple times across the rounds when it is active.

So that is the other argument against using what conditions trigger Grim Harvest to determine what conditions can trigger Disciple of Life. They are different abilities with different triggers.

[4]Okay, if I don’t agree with the magical flow requirement guess, then what is my guess?

Simply put, these caster abilities are not interacting with the spell effects, but reshaping the spells as they are being cast.

Disciple of Life takes the aspect of spells that restores hit points, and boosts it.

Blessed Healer makes it so that when a healing spell targets someone other than the caster, some extra healing is created and targets the caster.

Both of these abilities are altering whatever aspect of magic is used to heal. If a spell has no healing aspect, there is nothing to reshape and boost.

Grim Reaper reshapes spells so that a life energy harvesting component is added. Because the trigger is killing a creature, this harvester rider is tied to the damage dealing components of spells. (Or any save vs death type components). When something is killed, the harvester collects some of the life energy and channels it into the caster. If the spell is necrotic, it is more effective at collecting life energy.

But just like how the Life Cleric abilities need the spell to have an intrinsic healing component to boost, Grim Harvest needs the spell to have an intrinsic damage / killing component to attach the harvester to.

So when a Life Cleric casts Goodberry, the Disciple of Life ability reshapes the spell slightly, boosting the healing magic that is being put into the berry. The same way it reshapes any spell with a healing component.

When Grim Reaper interacts with a spell, it reshapes the damage dealing component of a spell so that life energy is harvested from killed creatures. If the spell lacks a damage dealing component, Grim Harvest has nothing to reshape. So the spells Magic Missle, Fireball, and Evard’s Black Tentacles have their damage dealing aspect altered, and harvesting is possible. But while spells like Telekinesis, Dominate Person, and Animate undead can be used to kill, the spells themselves do not have an intrinsic damage dealing component to reshape.

Tl;dr

The various abilities that alters the effects of spells are applied during the casting of the spell, not whenever the trigger condition occurs.

Wether a spell can be effected by an ability is dependent on what the essential nature of the spell, what naturally belongs there.

For Goodberry, healing is part of the spell. You cannot create a Goodberry that does not heal if eaten (someone with full HP already cannot be healed further. This is true of all healing spells)

For Animate Dead, the essential elements that belong naturally to the spell are unlife and domination, not damage. The spell actually overrides the natural murder tendencies of the undead it creates.