Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
1)Thickness is dependent on several things, primarily the weave, type and quality of the material, which is related to the period in question. A Viking ages (9th to 11th Century) gambeson solely for armour was uncommon but known of, and would have consisted of ~30 layers of linen. Ballparking the linen at 200g/m2, it'd make it ~2.8cm thick.
Are you sure? I (still) have not seen any evidence for "viking age" gambesons at all. So how do you know it was made of 30 layers of linen? Ypu might be refering to 9-11th century somewhere else than northern/western Europe, but then Viking era is a misinformation.

Last time it was discussed, we had the usual arguments in favour of "viking" era (early medieval) gambesons, mainly it boils down to "its a good idea to combine mail with cloth". From all the sources (literature/historical) I have seen I have seen no evidence of gambesons, nor have I from archaeology.

Som argue "ahh but they had multiple layers of thick clothing which works the same", which again they might, but we have no evidence. One problem is that all descriptions seem to indicate one layer of linen covered by one layer of wool as the common clothing.

Secondly, I have seen many 26-28th layers of linen gambesons, and they are either quite thick (to allow for a bit of air between the layers), or really stiff. If used below a mail the stiff ones becomes very manoeuvrable, the thick ones require the mail to have VERY; VERY wide sleeves. Looking at historical mail, the sleeves in the pre-12th century mail would not in any way allow for a 30 layers gambeson be worn underneath. Neither would the upper body parts of the mails (unless the wearers where all stick figure thin).

Now, I think early "cloth armour" where typically worn over and not under mail, and that it doesn't become common before the 12th century. But if you (or anyone else) have a good source for gambeson in "viking era" I am all ears!

Some people argue mail is uncomfortable to wear without gambeson, but thats only partly true. A single layer of cloth is enough to protect you from most of it, and a tight belt is more important.

2) Stuffed gambesons are much lighter, warmer and less protective. Warmth can be either good or bad however - it's great if you're in Northern Europe during winter, not so good in the Middle East.
Thick gambesons are also to hot to be comfortable to fight in, run in etc, in Northern Europe, even by winter. Unless you are talking about arctic circle area etc.

Stuffed gambesons also don't do as well when water's involved (heavy rainfall, swimming whether voluntary or involuntary) as the wool will soak up large amounts of water, making it very, very heavy.
Umm no. Wool does NOT soak. Thats why sheep are wearing it!

Its fibres doesnt soak water in any way, and is even covered in natural grease. Which is why Norse/scandinavians made their sails of wool rather than linen. Linen soak MUCH more!

3)I've not heard of double gambeson-ing without mail involved - there is a first hand Arabian scholar's account (I think Saracen) of a Frankish knight coming through an arrow shower looking like a hedgehog but completely unharmed thanks to his wearing a second gambeson over his mail and gambeson.
Gambesons could and have been worn straight over regular clothing.
Can you remember the source? I have seen many examples of "gambeson" over mail, but never as a second one, only as the sole one.