Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
Sure, and your posts yet again remind me that two people can go to the same screening and see entirely different movies. For myself, there was plenty of humor to keep the story from getting too dark while not ruining the serious side of the story like Ragnarok did.
Wait you did not like Ragnarok? 😲

Spoiler: Taking the rest to spoilers
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Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
It seems like you didn't like the nostalgia and sentiment in the movie, but I found it to be fantastic. Everybody had their dead pool going into the movie, and it doesn't pretend that any of the original Avengers will return afterwards. We see how beaten down and exhausted Tony is, how Cap doesn't know how to move on even now. Endgame was a swansong for all of the original Avengers, and I thought it accomplished that magnificently.
I do like Sentiment, but to me Sentiment by itself is like Marshmallow Peeps. It is tasty but also somehow not filling.

Let me link 3 Loki clips about Sentiment and after watching the 3 clips my point I am about to make will make more sense, it will be easier to articulate.




Avengers: Lok and Black Widow on the Shield Helicarrier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ87Lg3tCQs

Avengers: Loki and Thor on top of the Avengers Tower https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECM7cGPL8EQ

Ragnarok: Loki and Thor after Get Help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwBah2Smyew

Quote Originally Posted by Thor 3: Ragnarok Script

[As they walk towards it a DUPLICATE LOKI FORMS and LAGS BEHIND. The Loki walking with Thor is an illusion.]
LOKI: Though I feel it won’t make much of a difference
[We follow the real Loki as he slinks away towards the security system panel. He activates the panel and brings up a screen that will set off all the alarms palace-wide! ]
THOR (Shocked): Oh, Loki.
[Loki turns to see Thor looking not at all surprised.]
LOKI: I know I’ve betrayed you many times before, but this time it’s truly nothing personal. The reward for your capture will set me up nicely.
[He triggers the alarm.]
THOR: Never one for sentiment, were you?

LOKI: Easier to let it burn.

[But then Loki sees Thor holding up a fob device. Loki realizes that Thor affixed an Obedience Disk on him in that heart-to-heart moment.]
THOR: I agree.
[BZZZT! Thor ZAPS Loki and HOLDS DOWN the button. Loki HITS the ground, WRITHING in pain. Thor approaches. Pause.]
THOR: Oh brother, you’re becoming predictable. I trust you, you betray me. Round and round in circles we go.
[Thor continues to “think about it” for a beat while Loki convulses in agony on the floor. Finally, Thor kneels down:]
THOR: See, Loki, life is about, it’s about growth. It’s about change. But you seem to just wanna stay the same. I guess what I’m trying to say is that you’ll always be the God of Mischief, but you could be more. I’ll just put this over here for you.
[Thor places the fob on top of the security panel, so close but so far from Loki’s paralyzed reach.]
THOR: Anyway, I got places to be so good luck.
Sentiment by itself is fleeting. Sentiment combined with Surprise, or Sentiment combined with Discovery leads to growth and change, a passing on of your previous capabilities and identity.

You see I am not a big fan of time travel movies for often time travel movies makes it harder to promote a story with consequences and irrevocable change. It is harder to have stories where your choices have consequences, where there is both the possibility of loss and the possibility of growth. Times Arrow Marches Forward and all that Jazz.

There are exceptions to this. I enjoy the Back to the Future Trilogy for growth and change ooze out of this time travel story. I am also a huge fan of the Dr. Strange for the same reasons. Just because you have time travel inside the story does not mean it is a bad thing, but often this is a plot device that leads an author to sabotage her or his writing for they have to know how to use this ingredient well in order to get a grand final result.

-----

Endgame was not fulfilling to me even though I can tell lots of other people are going to like it, for Endgame was merely a swan song with very little internal growth of the people that occured at the end of the movie. Lots of external change, it was not a reset, but the change was external to the people, they did not grow as people. People died but that is external change and not internal change.

The closest thing we had to internal change was Professor Hulk, and Thor joining the Guardians of the Galaxy cast. Plus New Gamora and New Loki being reborn but as their earlier selves not with the memories, life experiences, and new identities / selves compared to their pre-death selves (so New Gamora is at her 2014 self, Rocket lived from 2014 to 2023, and the rest of the Guardians cast are 2014 to 2018 now in 2023, New Loki is from 2012 while Thor is from 2023.)

To me Swan Songs are not tales of song of heroes long ago, a swan song should not be an awesome feat of a hero prior to his death, but instead a new generation being born and both old and new are grateful to the sacrifices of the old, and thus there is Nordic Funeral Pyre the youth does to honor the dead.

Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
Rather than a candle, it was more of a torch. The torch was burning down and guttering out, as the original Avengers were. Then at the hour of need, it's re-kindled, and all of the allies they've made over the years come in to support them. Then, they hand the torch off to the next generation.
I agree with this. Candle, Torch, whatever language you want to use.