Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
Ah, seems the 3.5 version differ from the PF version then, and the latter doesn't include the details about these abilities you quoted. Hmm... I assume the sidebar I quoted also differ. What does the 3.5 version of that say?
In the 3.5 version, each sidebar only reads thus:

Spoiler: Shrines of Power, Rappan Athuk Reloaded
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The unholy shrines in this dungeon, of which this is the first, provide power to the demon prince Orcus and his avatar, the “Master.” To cleanse the area of evil, PCs must destroy and consecrate each unholy shrine. Additionally, destroying the unholy shrines weakens Orcus’ avatar, making it possible for a high-level party to defeat him on Level 15.


(I should note that I only have the 3.5 version, and don’t know PF well enough to comment on PF PCs and abilities.)

Again, a single high-op 20th level PC could defeat Orcus as written at full power.
At sufficiently high-op, a PC could defeat anything once Pun-Pun, various infinite loops are on the table. Philosophically, my point is that if infinite loops—or even other, non-infinite-loop, high-op tricks—are on the table, it seems artificial to allow PCs to use them, but not Orcus, even though he is by lore a zillion years old and has zero moral qualms about seeking power.

Also there are certain mechanics that seem a little too easy to ignore, which is one more spike in the CR system. Generally I find that official CRs overvalue Spell Resistance, for instance. In Orcus’s case (again, 3.5 version),

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SR 63 (fully powered) or even SR 45 (completely depowered) should, in principle, be a real problem for someone with CL even around 20, not to mention summons.

Admittedly, the direct solution is to cherry-pick every SR:No spell ever, which is one of the reasons SR and even 3.5 Magic “Immunity” are often take too seriously by CR — but I consider this to be a general problem in the magic system, how much “nonmagic magic” there is. What is the point of having the game system even having defenses against magic that don’t stop magic? Even so, such summons (i.e. Evil) as aren’t hedged out on Orcus’s level should find that their spells and SLAs mostly can’t do anything to Orcus, assuming they aren’t also allowed to cherry-pick.


In terms of high CRs generally, though, given the general power of full casters with even moderate optimization, much less above 15th level or so, I’d probably argue that it’s hard to create a genuine challenge of CR 20+ that doesn’t include 9th level casting to oppose the PCs, so

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stripping Orcus of access to any 9th level spells or effects would almost seem to hard cap his actual challenge to something rather less than CR 20, admittedly — which is fine if the aim is to have a more typical “end boss” fight for a 15th-20th level party, depending on optimization level and other factors, but hardly the “Orcus gonna crush your souls” apparent stated intent.