Quote Originally Posted by Skrum View Post
It's not a rule, it's about what they bring to the party. Can they [list of things] Etc etc etc

Do they act as a force multiplier, or are they just kinda doing their thing? That's what I mean by selfish.

Not to say they have NO abilities like this, but not very many, and not very good ones.
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So the Archery style Fighter just wailing away from range is less selfish? The Wizard who never casts buffs or control? The Cleric that spends all his slots buffing his own attacks? The Bard that uses all his BI dice on Cutting Words to save his own skin or Blade flourish to showboat his way through a melee? The Barbarian that charges recklessly into combat, regardless of whether it's conducive to the party? The Paladin that can't hold back that smite because "it's what his character would do"? I've seen far more selfishness from the stereotypical examples of other Classes "just kinda doing their thing" than I have from Rogues who, as I said before, actively desire and encourage good teamwork and party friendly tactics.

As for force multipliers, who better to cast Haste on than a Rogue? Who better to grant advantage on a single attack? Who better to grant a speed boost? Or one time, location based effect? Who better to carry the lantern to illuminate the enemy than the fastest and most able to reach a hard to get place? Who else is giving more pause for thought in regard to Opportunity Attacks (once the effect of one has been seen?) Give any other character "thing" and it remains "thing". Give a Rogue "thing" and they'll turn it into "more than thing". Give a Fighter an additional attack and he'll give you 2d6+15 damage; a figure that stays pretty much static for the entirety of the game. Give a Rogue that same additional attack and he'll give you (1+(lvl/2))d6+5 damage. Give a Rogue +10ft movement and he'll turn it into 20ft. Give a Rogue a crit and he'll give you a bucket full of dice that the party will talk about for the next three sessions. Let me put it another way; you're a Diviner Wizard and roll a nat 20 for one of your Portent dice. Who are you giving it to to give them that one clutch critical hit? Is it the Rogue? I think it might be the Rogue. It's that or the Paladin (assuming he has any spell slots left). In many regards, the Rogue is a strong contender for being the force that gets multiplied and that's not a selfish thing, it's an integral part of team play. After all, if everyone is multiplying the force, no-one is actually applying it; 2x2x2x0 is still zero.

And when you say that Rogues don't have many abilities such as the ones you describe...how many of the things you listed belong to a single class? How many are being stacked on to one character? The Swashbuckler using Panache to give a foe Disadvantage against everyone but himself has got to be just about the least selfish ability in the entire game and it's not on your list? I'd say it's pretty effective at espousing team player vibes and is one of a mere handful of actual aggro features in the game. Having the mobility to block a foe from getting to a party member or to achieve the party goal by grabbing the macguffin, pulling the lever, closing the door or whatever it is the party is actually doing there besides standing there hitting each other is a lvl.2 feature all Rogues get, but that's not on your list. Hit point efficiency is apparently non-selfish and yet despite Rogues being the second most HP efficient class in the game next to Barbarians (outside of really, really engineered circumstances), Rogues are selfish and Fighters and Paladins are not?

I keep reading phrases like "it's self evident" and "not very good" without any actual proof. I'd like some, please. Caveat; that isn't related to Sneak Attack (because, as previously stated and I think thoroughly proven already, outside of optimisation for off-turn attacks and/or crit-fishing, Sneak Attack is their Cantrip damage and I don't hear anyone comparing Wizard to Ranger based on Firebolt vs longbow damage and judging the Wizard, as a whole, poorly as a result).

Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
And to piggyback -- often the things in the rogue class fantasy are individual actions. The whole party sometimes can't participate beyond waiting to see if the rogue gets caught or comes back safely. When the party needs to steal a letter, and the only way to get it is to get into the house, lift the letter from the safe, copy it, then return it to the safe and relock everything on the way out, sending the fighter along with the rogue is an active hindrance. A trickery domain cleric can help, but also a trickery domain cleric... maybe just doesn't need the rogue. It's like the reason the Flash has to be faster than Superman: if Superman's faster than the Flash, then you don't need the Flash.
This has nothing to do with the Rogue Class and everything to do with sending a character on a solo mission. That character could be a Druid in Wildshape, a Warlock with Gaseous Form and Invisibility, a Fighter with Stealth proficiency or a Barbarian with a death wish. Again, I'll ask for any actual proof that the Rogue is in any way more selfish a Class than any other. Not, I'll add, more selfish as an individual character, player, party playstyle, GM fiat or stereotyped expectation made of fairy dust and wishful thinking that suggests it to be so...I want a rule or actual feature that makes the Rogue, one of the only Classes in the game that actively benefits as an actual rule from being a team player, selfish.