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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    Utah
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    Male

    Default Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant Beast View Post
    Sure, that describes a simple scenario, in a not too strange environment, with veteran players.

    Now swap out the players for 13 year old players, or adults that are drinking alcohol, and swap the locale for something more exotic, such as a biomechanical corridor placed in a giant Tentacle tower, that rises from the earth. It might take more than a minute of real-time to resolve that.

    That is part of why I brought up Scouting. In my experience, Scouting has always been a contentious issue, and depending upon the complexity of the scenario, the level of experience of the players, (and their level of inebriation), how long real time resolution takes will vary.
    DM: You peek out of the chamber you are in, and you see a corridor made of segmented sections.
    13 YO Rogue: Ooh, cool! What do the segments do?
    DM: You need to investigate to find out.
    Rogue: Awesome, I investigate!
    DM: You can do that, but let's see what the others are doing first. (Pauses to wait for the cleric and paladin to finish their shots.) Anyone else want to do something here?
    Paladin: Hold up, I'm out of beer. Seems like a good time to round up more - anyone else?
    Cleric and Ranger: Absolutely!
    DM: Wizard - how are things for you?
    Wizard: A little overwhelming, but OK.
    DM: Anything you want to do while Rogue is exploring?
    Wizard: I don't know, I'm trying to figure it out.
    DM: Sure, no problem. Ranger, can you help them out while we deal with the scouting?
    Ranger: I've never been a wizard before!
    DM: I know, but at least this isn't your first session.
    Wizard: It's OK, I just don't know what I can do while I wait - do I have to do anything or can I just see what Rogue finds?
    DM: You can just wait for Rogue if you want, but there are some things you can do in that amount of time, like ritual casting, reading some of the books you picked up, or maybe using your skills.
    Wizard: Can I investigate the stuff in this room?
    DM: Sure. Ranger or Cleric?
    Cleric: I'm rolling the bones.
    Ranger: Nah, I'm good. But I really want to get to doing something again - it's been a half an hour without a fight!
    DM: No problem. Cleric, what are you going to ask?
    Cleric: What are the segments for?
    DM: Sorry, that doesn't fit the Augury spell. Do you want to try something different - different spell, different question?
    Cleric: Oh, yeah, weal or woe. OK, how about what happens if we walk down the corridor?
    DM: That will work, but it will take 10 minutes until the ritual is done, so we'll get back to you.
    Rogue: Should I wait until they're done?
    DM: Up to you - Cleric hasn't said what they are trying to figure out, so you don't know.
    Rogue: Can I ask?
    DM: Yes.
    Cleric: I can't interrupt the ritual to answer!
    Rogue: So do I just wait, or can I investigate the segments?
    DM: You can investigate the segments if you want.
    Rogue: OK, I'll do that.
    Paladin, returning with beer: What'd I miss?
    Ranger: Rogue's about to investigate the segments, Cleric's rolling the bones, Wiz is checking out the stuff in the room. I'm just waiting for a fight.
    Paladin: Cool. Beer while we see what they find?
    Ranger: Absolutely.
    DM: Rogue and Wiz, give me investigation checks.
    Wiz: 19!
    Rogue: 13.
    DM: Wiz, you check the strange formations on the walls, and they remind you of tendons. You trace them and find that they converge to points surrounding the door. It looks like they could expand or contract, but you don't see a mechanism. Rogue, you can tell that the segments are made to move against each other, with a lot of side to side motion and a small amount of up and down. You are confident the corridor could loop into a circle if it's long enough, although you can't tell why.
    DM: Cleric, your ritual completes. What is the question?
    Cleric: Um, what were we doing?
    Everyone else: Checking out the corridor.
    Cleric: Oh, yeah - weal or woe for going down the corridor!
    DM - hunching over and using a squinty eye: The bones tell you... nothing!
    Cleric: Well that was a waste, but you got your Willow quote in, so it's cool. Should we head into the corridor, or see if these tendons do something?

    Now, I have no idea how long that would take. I do know that I've been there before, with drunk players and with children, and the DM can keep it on track if everyone wants it to be kept on track. If the DM makes sure that they keep it engaging for everyone, and you don't have a group of players that cannot stand the thought of not being the center of attention, then scouting is fine. If the DM plays it as a normal game just with one player, then the DM is screwing up. If the DM provides the information they could find quickly and efficiently, then the scouting works and is a good part of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    It's also a situation where the area is homogeneous with everything they've seen before -- I assume, there's no description. All the doors are closed. There are no branches in the path or obstructions. There's no wandering monster, the rogue doesn't trip a trap. Nothing changes in the time the rogue is out. It's just a hallway.
    Yes, it is just a hallway. The next one is a biomechanical tentacle coming out of a creature with a bunch of people who are drunk. Is there a particular scenario you want me to write up that can keep everyone in the party engaged? As I said, I can add in descriptions of anything there, and I don't consider that to be a time detriment - you can tell the whole table what things look like as the Rogue explores, or when they are back, either way the time would be the same. You're right, the rogue didn't trip a trap, or run into a wandering monster.

    DM: You find a trip wire on this door, but you can't tell what it does.
    Rogue: OK, I have time. Can I investigate it further.
    DM: Give me an investigation roll.
    Rogue: 14.
    DM: You see that the wire goes into a small hole in the wall, but can't see anything beyond that. The wire is under extreme tension.
    Rogue: OK, I'll attempt to disarm.
    DM: Without knowing more about it, this is going to be difficult - you can't even be sure what will disarm it.
    Cleric: Oh, crap, what's he going to do, guys?
    Wiz: I know what I would do, but he's off on his own!
    Rogue: Settle down, guys, I've got this. Sleight of Hand roll - uh oh. Hey, um, that becomes a 10 with reliable talent, and with my bonuses it gets to an 18.
    DM: Everyone, you hear a faint noise coming from down the hallway in the direction Rogue went. Rogue, you secure one end of the wire and remove your wire cutters. You smoothly cut the wire at the wall while the wire is held taut, but you realize immediately that you guessed wrong - the wire was holding something in place rather than pulling something out if tugged. You hear a snapping sound - give me a DEX save.
    Rogue: What is wrong with my rolls! 14.
    DM: A massive slab of rack falls from the ceiling, hitting you for 38 points of bludgeoning damage and trapping you. Everyone else - you hear no further noise from outside the room.
    Cleric: Well, if he's not back when the ritual ends, we'll start looking.

    And there we are, the Rogue ran into a problem and something changed in the hallway. And still only a few minutes total time to deal with the scouting. This is fine if the other players do not hate having even a moment when they are not the center of attention. It is no worse than when the bard gets to be the focus as the face of the party while negotiating with the local manor lord. When those scenes happen, the face often ends up doing pretty much all of the talking for an extended period, because they are the ones with the good bonuses. The others wait and listen. But I rarely hear people complain about how social interactions are bad because only the party face gets to do something.
    Last edited by Darth Credence; 2024-04-30 at 11:27 AM.
    Created an interactive character sheet for sidekicks on Google Sheets - automatic calculations, drop down menus for sidekick type, hopefully everything necessary to run a sidekick: https://tinyurl.com/y6rnyuyc