1. - Top - End - #409
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    It's very simply obvious that an encounter intended for 4+ players is going to absolutely slaughter a lone scout that isn't strictly optimized for combat, and while rogues are 'good' at stealth, they lack a lot of the best stealth tools and they will eventually mess up or get caught out and then
    They are also good at running away. Dash.
    solo scouting is just a stupid meme.
    No, it isn't. I've seen it work very well. It can be done. Given how stealth works in this game, I usually suggest two person scouting efforts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
    DM: You peek through the doorway and see a passage stretching into the darkness.
    Spoiler: Nice example
    Show
    Wiz: I need ten minutes to get telepathic bond back up.
    Cleric: Good idea, I'll take the time to roll the bones and see if we can get any information.
    Rogue: I'm going to scout the corridor, checking for traps along the way, and see what I can map out while they are doing a ritual.
    DM: OK. Cleric, what course of action are you looking at?
    Cleric: Can I make that decision when the Rogue gets back?
    DM: You can if they're back in time, otherwise you'll need to make a call at the end of the ritual time.
    Rogue: I'll be back.
    DM: OK, Rogue, what is your plan? And give me a stealth check.
    Rogue: 22. Scout ahead, checking for traps along the way. I'll note any doors, but I won't go in. I'll just listen at the doorways for anything obvious, then move on. I'll turn back with enough time to make sure I'm there.
    DM [draws on map]: You make your way down the hallway, using your passive investigation to check for traps along the way. You pass doors here, here, and here. At this one, you spotted a trip wire, although you don't know what it will set off without further investigation. Do you do so?
    Rogue: I'm on a time limit, so nothing beyond the basics.
    DM: OK. You hear some noises behind this door, but you can't tell what it is. You don't get anything from this door. Going any further risks not making it back in time.
    Rogue: OK, heading back.
    DM: Cleric, he'll be back in time, so what will you ask about?
    Cleric: How about if we open the trapped door?
    DM: The bones reveal both weal and woe - you sense great danger but great reward.


    That entire exchange would take about a minute of real-time, and a big part of it is what the cleric is doing. If you don't think that was "worth it", then so be it, but it would be in my games. Three characters did something effective, one of them only because the rogue was allowed to eat up almost a minute doing some scouting. Could there be more descriptive dialogue? Sure, and it would take up more time. But unless the DM and the rogue go to a different room to have the DM give just them the descriptive dialogue, there is no difference between the DM describing it to the rogue and describing it to the whole party. All the descriptions are given, and when the scout returns, they share it, so it all works out. The number of decisions that have to be made just don't need to be that many - here we had the rogue give some parameters at the beginning, and the DM clarified once. Then they just had it done. If the DM describes every step the rogue takes, having them roll for investigation for every floor tile, then, yeah, scouting would be a huge waste for everyone else. But why would anyone run it that way? If the scout is wary of danger, they will very likely be able to recognize it and pull back before something happens that they cannot deal with, so let them do it and find out what's ahead. I've had a scout in my game (a bard rather than a rogue, but they still performed the function) turn being ambushed into surprising the enemy, and their total time of being focused on to do so was about 5 minutes.
    There are plenty of ways for this to play out, but it also takes players who play as a team.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    RE: solo-scouting ahead - yes, mechanically it's not very well supported and even dangerous for that player, but it's still a popular class fantasy for a reason. "There's 8 hobgoblins in the outpost ahead arguing over a dice game with a haunch of boar on the line, they wouldn't notice an angry ankheg charging through here. No, they didn't notice me, and I disabled that crappy tripwire alarm one of 'em strung outside the door. Do you blokes wanna leave them alone or mop 'em up? I'm good either way." {Flourishes daggers briefly.}
    And yes, you need overwatch. The old "send in the elf" joke is a joke for a good reason. In 5e, guidance is one of many tools available to assist the scout ... if the players choose to play as a team.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2024-04-30 at 01:15 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society