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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by glass View Post
    It's full of dysfuctional rules. It's full of of rules that are badly written or just bad. Occasionally, it's full of rules that are fine but have been misinterpreted.

    But it can't be full of rules that are false. A rule cannot be wrong about what it is saying - if it says something, by definition it says that thing!
    O RLY?
    Prerequisite for Black Flame Zealot PrC:
    Quote Originally Posted by Complete Divine
    Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (kukri), Iron Will.
    Except - Kukri is a Martial Weapon in 3.5
    While, technically, there is a way to actually get EWP with Kukri in 3.5 (some special materials) - would you really say it's the only RAW-legal way to qualify for Black Flame Zealot?

    Quote Originally Posted by glass View Post
    To the best of my knowledge, there no need or method to make leadership checks - that is what makes the subject of that post dysfunctional. But it doesn't make it "false" - if such checks were introduced, the item would add +5 to them just like it says.
    If such checks were introduced - then rule wouldn't be false

    Quote Originally Posted by glass View Post
    This is confusing, because a few posts ago you quoted its saying so, thus:

    Either is says it, in which case it is not false because it makes it true by saying it, because that's how rule work! Or it doesn't say it, in which case it isn't false because it isn't there at all. Unlike Schrodinger's cat, it cannot be both. Yes, I know Shrodinger didn't believe the cat was both alive and dead - he was trying to ridicule Quantum Mechanics not explain it.
    (For the record, its the former.)

    Rules can have exceptions, implicit or explicit. But if having exceptions made a rule false, the vast majority of the rules in the game would be false.
    You see, it says:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.
    "Only" is a strong statement - it implying there is no exceptions from this rule
    Any single exception - no matter how far-fetched - makes it automatically false
    (Heck, taken literally, even such methods as Reality Revision or even Alter Reality shouldn't work too - because they aren't "a wish or miracle spell")

    Quote Originally Posted by glass View Post
    Quite possibly, but each of them is an explicit or implicit exception to the stated rule. And suffocation is not one of them - nothing makes suffocation an explicit or implicit exception to the tarrasque's clearly stated rule, so it cannot kill it.
    As I already said above, there is a strong statement in the tarrasque's RAW - thus, it gives no place for implicit exceptions (explicit exceptions are, usually, more or less self-explaining)
    For suffocation, let's see:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

    Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Suffocation
    A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The save must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.

    When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.
    Suffocation don't deal hit point damage (but even if it did - Regeneration would be incapable to restore them anyway)
    Now, Tarrasque is a Magical Beast
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe.
    Maybe, entry for the tarrasque itself says something about its breathing or/and suffocation?
    No, I don't seeing it
    Thus, unless we're splitting hairs there ("dead ≠ slain", or even "suffocated ≠ dead") - I can's see how it's not an exception (be it explicit or implicit)

    Quote Originally Posted by glass View Post
    The tarrasque's invulnerability is provided by its Regeneration - remove the one, and you remove the other. A rule not applying is not the same as a rule being false.
    While true, it was just the simplest example of how to do it

    Another way is to make the Regeneration to "just not work" - but it may fall under the same umbrella as the previous group

    Next group of methods is "no-save-just-die": RAW says about cases when tarrasque failed its save - not when there was no save possible to begin with (Sphere of Annihilation is a good example)

    Now, there are ways which absolutely certainly would avoid the Regeneration - because it's not how Regeneration work
    • Ability Drain - if "Allip trick" works, then what will happen if we drain tarrasque's Constitution? (As extreme example of this method - force it to draw the "Death" card from the Deck of Many Things)
    • Ability Burn - just like the above (Mind Switch + Body Fuel)
    • Ability Penalty - "Con 0" one more time
    • negative levels - would it still be alive with 0 HD?
    • hit points drain - nothing in the rules says how to restore hit points drain, so I dare to guess even tarrasque's regeneration isn't one of those methods
    • thirst - mentioned in the same line as suffocation; Plane Shift it into a plane without any water (and desert-like environment - for Sandstorm rules to kick in)
    • make it Undead while skipping the "being dead" part (then - destroy, if you want so)
    • Molydeus Venom - ignores poison immunity, does Con damage, at Con 0 victims turn into Mane (CR 1 demon)
    • Transcend Mortality via Spellguard of Silverymoon ("You gain these benefits by using up all your remaining life force.")
    • Exalted Fury via Magic Jar (Sacrifice: You die. You can be raised or resurrected normally.)
    • make the tarrasque your Companion - create Companion of Flame and Hatred (Polyhedron #147) - it would die 5 days later
    • make the tarrasque your Familiar - become a Diabolist - Imp would kill and devour the tarrasque (I, personally, don't know how they would do it - but RAW says they would)
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2024-05-10 at 07:48 PM.