GITP Monster Competition Chat Thread II

[Sir Shadow]

Clockwork Weaver submitted. All that's left is Lore stuff and creation

Well, I haven't written up anything for creation in a while so it's probably wildly overcost.

[BisectedBrioche]

My entry's up. Enjoy.

[DracoDei]

Sower of Seasons:
You call it "Touch of AGES" rather than "Touch of YEARS" on the "Special Attacks" line.
EDIT: I may want to consider having it stack with itself...

Clockwork Weaver:
For simplicity I would go ahead and base Time Lapse on the (Temporal?) Stasis spell. Right now "Invulnerable" leaves a lot of room for interpritation.

Creation cost is WAY to cheap for something that can TIME TRAVEL...


Edit^2:
Carnivorous Thyme:
Many animals travel alone, as such the description for why it has the abilities it does seem totally contrived... what can this things digestive system ONLY handle humanoids and other herd/pack creatures?


Question about my entry:
Would it help with the "but... you can't DO that..." business if I went ahead and gave them divine rank 0 or maybe even 1?

[Debihuman]

.
I am breaking the rules.

Indeed, you may break any rule as you see fit. However, you failed to explain any reason for doing so. Moreover, I'm not convinced that breaking the rules makes this creature better. That's the point of this discourse--to make your creature better.

Next you are going to tell me that arbitrarily giving The Final Word a -20 to initiative or maximizing his damage doesn't fly because it doesn't follow the rules guidelines for how things are supposed to work.

Actually I don't care that you broke the rules. I wanted to understand WHY and why it matters and why I should vote for YOU over anyone else. See if you said, "The First Word is a creature of immense speed; it always strikes first and wins first iniative in the intial round of combat" THAT would have been sufficient. I'm far less concerned that your creature breaks the rules, than I am that it be well thought out and comprehensible. If you wish to be arbitary rather than thoughful, it shows. It also reflects poorly on your creation, which by rights should be freaking awesome.

As for bonus feats specifically... so I made some of the HD count like fighter levels to some extent? So what? So I gave out an epic bonus feat? I COULD have just upped the intiative bonus from double-haste by 4 more points, but the epic feat underlines the whole "epitomy of swiftness of attack" thing much better IMHO. Now, yes, it DOES make it even harder to judge the CR, but what is life without a little challenge, eh?

It matters when it comes to voting for your creation. If you break a rule, acknowledge it and show how it's the best way to showcase your creature.
Don't cover it up because it looks like you made a mistake even if you didn't. Spell it out in the special qualities. That's why they have that section.

Answer to the question you really asked: Sure, but they would probably be a fool to [refuse a challenge].

Why would someone be a fool to refuse a challenge? There are plenty of reasons to refuse a challenge. Not everyone thinks it is honorable to accept a challenge without a good reason. Not accepting the challenge should simply avoid the conflict.

Why would they attack someone who refused their challenge? That's pretty evil if you ask me. If you think they would taunt and then kill the person for refusing, I'd say you really need to rethink that alignment.

Bit of a nit-pick: They never fight apart from each other; they always fight as a team. the party accepts or declines the challenge for both of them together.

The party may or may not decide to fight as a group. If the majority of the party declines what happens? You can't predetermine what a bunch of PCs are going to do. What happens if only one person in the party accepts the challenge? I'm not sure that makes for a good challenge or even a fair challenge.

Ummmm, good question, never really occured to me that anyone would concede after accepting.... then they laugh at him and kill him as slowly and painfully as possible for being such a wimp maybe? (and then they get True Rezzed, just like normal)

First, you can concede BEFORE accepting the challenge. Second, if the PCs are losing, they should have the option of conceding honorably. If this leads them to certain death, perhaps you need to rethink the alignment of these creature.

As it currently stands... yes. Might have to look into that though... would be kinda cheesy to banish one and then defeat the other for his weapon(s) I think... maybe make it so they are banished together as if they were a single 40HD creature, and either are both banished or both remain???

Well, banishment is the standard spell for defeating outsiders. If they have to save as a single 40 HD monster, they have terrible saves. If one makes the save for both, you need to decide which one that is.

BTW, a 17th level spellcaster with Powerword: Kill can take out The First Word with it.

What is the basis for this monster? I'm not familiar with the source.

Debby

[Sir Shadow]

For simplicity I would go ahead and base Time Lapse on the (Temporal?) Stasis spell. Right now "Invulnerable" leaves a lot of room for interpritation.

<3 I had totally forgotten that spell.

Creation cost is WAY to cheap for something that can TIME TRAVEL...

I know... I'm looking through my files to find the formula I usually use when making costs...

[Debihuman]

It's nice to see more competition.

Bisected: if a creature can't move its speed is 0 feet (immobile).

CR for a an immobile plant is probably low. Being moved forward in time isn't necessarily dangerous and the bite does less damage than a tendriculous so I'd guessimate that CR is around 4 or 5.

You have temporal fruit listed as temperate fruit in Special Abilities.

Other than you need to fix your formatting on the first line [need a line space between creature's name and size/type], it looks really good.

Sower of Seeds looks great. While I understand the immunity to electricity, I'm not sure why they should be immune to disease and poison. Many venoms are natural. Diseases, except supernatural diseases like mummy rot, are natural too.

Debby

[DracoDei]

I hope I am managing to be clear here... 5 hours of sleep out of the last 36ish.

Actually I don't care that you broke the rules. I wanted to understand WHY and why it matters and why I should vote for YOU over anyone else. See if you said, "The First Word is a creature of immense speed; it always strikes first and wins first iniative in the intial round of combat" THAT would have been sufficient. I'm far less concerned that your creature breaks the rules, than I am that it be well thought out and comprehensible. If you wish to be arbitary rather than thoughful, it shows. It also reflects poorly on your creation, which by rights should be freaking awesome.

AH HA!!! (and Eureka! too.)
I now hypothesize that this all comes down to one very simple thing: I was writing the crunch rather than the fluff first. You weren't saying "Never do that!" you were saying "Needs MOAR FLUFF!"... which I was perfectly aware that it did/does (can't remember if I supported everything you mentioned with fluff). I suspect we were on the same page all along.

It matters when it comes to voting for your creation. If you break a rule, acknowledge it and show how it's the best way to showcase your creature.
Don't cover it up because it looks like you made a mistake even if you didn't. Spell it out in the special qualities. That's why they have that section.

Good advice, and something I was probably at least vaguely aware of... whether I was aware enough of it? Probably not. Thank you very much, I will try to take it to heart.

Why would someone be a fool to refuse a challenge? There are plenty of reasons to refuse a challenge. Not everyone thinks it is honorable to accept a challenge without a good reason. Not accepting the challenge should simply avoid the conflict.

Yeah, good point. One of those things that I find myself thinking "I was thinking that was a possibility, WHY didn't I type that?". In any case, they would probably issue some accusations of cowardice in courtly language and if that didn't work, they would leave... which reminds me, I need to give them both Plane Shift once per week or something... maybe even the same nerfed version of Wish (Transportation only, self and equipment only), as I gave the Free Spirit.

Why would they attack someone who refused their challenge? That's pretty evil if you ask me. If you think they would taunt and then kill the person for refusing, I'd say you really need to rethink that alignment.

They wouldn't attack someone for refusing the challenge. They would attack someone who "didn't want to play the game to the end after agreeing to start". To pick an example at random: Sorta like a pro football team walking off the field with a full quarter left to play... doesn't matter if you are behind 35 to 0 and your star QB had to leave the stadium in an ambulance... you finish the game if their is that much of it left.

The party may or may not decide to fight as a group. If the majority of the party declines what happens? You can't predetermine what a bunch of PCs are going to do. What happens if only one person in the party accepts the challenge? I'm not sure that makes for a good challenge or even a fair challenge.

Yes, that is a very bad thing. The Words would probably suggest cancelling the whole thing if half the party were raring to go and half refused to have anything to do with it. Although they would be perfectly willing to proceed if the opponents did not agree to that. In any case, it is no different in the end then:
GM: You all come over the hill, and see a huge red dragon 50 feet in front of you.
Player 1: I turn around and run like a scalded jackrabbit.
Player 2: I fall to my knees and beg for mercy.
Player 3: I no challantly keep walking and hope it is not seeking conflict at this particular time.
Player 4: I charge it with my Great-Axe.

Both situations are cases of the party falling short of bare minimum conhesion, and thus are very very bad things.

First, you can concede BEFORE accepting the challenge. Second, if the PCs are losing, they should have the option of conceding honorably. If this leads them to certain death, perhaps you need to rethink the alignment of these creature.

Conceding before the fight starts is just another form of refusing the challenge, and would cause them to roll their eyes at most. As for "Honorable surrender" see my football analogy... OTOH, if there are only 2 minutes left in the game and the score is still 35 to 0, I think the game can be called without anyone feeling bad about it. So... maybe they would occasionally accept such a surrender... the whole point is that with the True Rez thing in effect, it really comes down to a sparring match. Death as a revolving door and all that. Each of the Words might have died at least once a year for the past millenium, and they think nothing of it, and neither should anyone they challenge in their opinion. That is not evil or good, it is competitive.

Well, banishment is the standard spell for defeating outsiders. If they have to save as a single 40 HD monster, they have terrible saves. If one makes the save for both, you need to decide which one that is.

Well, since they both have the same will save it doesn't usually matter which one of them rolls it technically... and the 40 HD thing was basically "crunch-speak" for a fluff of "Unless your name is Elminster, Mordenkain, or some other such, don't even bother trying."

BTW, a 17th level spellcaster with Powerword: Kill can take out The First Word with it.

And if they can get that past the SR, then that is perfectly fine. I have no thematic objection to them falling to a single spell, just that a single 4th level spell (as in the case with Dismissal) seems a bit out of place. 9th level? Not so much...

What is the basis for this monster? I'm not familiar with the source.

The Final Word: In Second Edition, there was a weapon enchantment called "Final Word", it meant you always went last (or maybe just one of your attacks per round was last?), but that attack always hit and always did maximum damage. The Final Word can miss on a natural 1, not to mention if someone pumps their AC that high somehow (I have been told it is possible), but that is fine for the transition from 2nd to 3.5, not everything is going to translate perfectly, and True Strike is a simple and handy concept that does what is needed well enough.

The First Word: Polar opposite in every respect, just to make the fight even more thematic and memorable.

[BisectedBrioche]

It's nice to see more competition.

Bisected: if a creature can't move its speed is 0 feet (immobile).

CR for a an immobile plant is probably low. Being moved forward in time isn't necessarily dangerous and the bite does less damage than a tendriculous so I'd guessimate that CR is around 4 or 5.

You have temporal fruit listed as temperate fruit in Special Abilities.

Other than you need to fix your formatting on the first line [need a line space between creature's name and size/type], it looks really good.

Sower of Seeds looks great. While I understand the immunity to electricity, I'm not sure why they should be immune to disease and poison. Many venoms are natural. Diseases, except supernatural diseases like mummy rot, are natural too.

Debby

Thanks, I forgot I left out the speed and CR.

[Sir Shadow]

Added Tome of Ages to the entry and tweaked the creation process.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Freeeeeedom... looking over entries now

[Sir Shadow]

I believe the Clockwork Weaver is finished. Unless anyone has any comments/concerns. It's CR might be a little off...

[Debihuman]

Good advice, and something I was probably at least vaguely aware of... whether I was aware enough of it? Probably not. Thank you very much, I will try to take it to heart.

You are very welcome. I have now officially done my good deed for the day. Honestly, if I had just said, "your monster needs more fluff," it wouldn't really have been at all helpful and it was something you already knew.

Don't mistake mechanics for fluff. Fluff can be entirely removed such as my fluff on when watchdog puppies are weaned [nobody really needs that information] but explaining how a new special ability works isn't fluff, it's mechanics. Crunch is the stat block but mechanics are what really showcase the creature. As long as the mechanics are sound, it really doesn't matter that the creature doesn't exactly follow the rules. This is especially true when using a mechanic to showcase a specific feature.

I'll use my own creature as an example. The watchdog has a special ability, Time Heals All Wounds. It is similar to the paladin's ability to Lay On Hands but isn't as effective. First, I didn't want it match the paladin's ability exactly because I think the class abilities should stay special to the classes. Second, because I just couldn't resist the pun. The Phantom Tollbooth is full of puns so this honors the original source.

If you follow the format in the SRD, you'll see a lot of repetition of key phrases and game mechanics. If a creature has a Small size it always gets a bonus to Hide, unless you determine otherwise. The otherwise should ALWAYS be explained and the best way to explain it is in the Special abilities. Not just that it has this ability but WHY it has this ability. Just because it seems KEWL is acceptable of course, but it really helps if the ability also fits the theme of the creature.

Glad to help.

Debby

[Stycotl]

retrospect is done. i shot for cr 15, but in the end felt it needed a boost. i put it at 17, though it might rate 16. whatever, it's done. tell me if there is anything that needs clarification/fixing/etc.

[DracoDei]

Retrospect:
As written the Blink effect is written, it sounds like it would have a miss chance, and, arguably, be able to strike ethereal opponents. Neither sounds like what you would have really intended.

[Debihuman]

I tweaked the watchdog a bit by fixing the Bark DC, correcting the AC to reflect the +4 natural as standard dogs have and adding the line that watchdogs always know what tiime it is.

Things I've noticed:

More Lore section mishaps. First, as I previously mentioned in an earlier post (though not everyone read it.... Lore checks are 10 + HD of creature and go up by 5). It's an obscure enough rule but it's easy to fix. However, you don't have to slavishly adhere to this: simply state whether your creature is more or less common than average will suffice. If you don't expressly state it, it looks like a mistake.

The First Word/Last Word -- missing lore section completely. You also need a more definitive CR rating for these creatures. The question marks look sloppy.

Carnivorous Thyme -- In your case, carnivorous thyme might be common enough that the DC checks are lower. You need to mention that somewhere. What kind of check is needed? Knowledge (Nature) is the most appropriate.

Temporal Echo -- You should state that the lore checks are higher due to the creature's relative obscurity. What if the DM wants to use this in a small city or just a town? According to your Lore check, the PCs will find out nothing at all.

Clockwork Reaver -- Lore should start at 17 not 10 unless these are common enough. The first check usually reveals Type and subtype.

What is "astral steel"? I didn't see it in the SRD and I couldn't find a reference on a Google search. I think you should refer to the source of this and list its special properties because without that information, a DM can't really use this creature.

Retrospect: Needs lore section. It's nice to see a reference to Planescape even if it's a bit obscure for some newer players.

Debby

[Sir Shadow]

Thanks Debi, I've never heard of that Lore rule before o_O

Clockwork Reaver -- Lore should start at 17 not 10 unless these are common enough. The first check usually reveals Type and subtype.

I had hoped Type would be easy enough to discern just by looking at it... it's a giant clockwork monster... really... Personally, though, I really prefer leaving it up to the DM's discretion as to how easy it is to know. In one campaign, they may be common, and in another they may never be heard of. I'd assume (and yes, I know what they say about when you assume) that if the DM is going to use it, timetravel isn't THAT unheard of.

What is "astral steel"? I didn't see it in the SRD and I couldn't find a reference on a Google search. I think you should refer to the source of this and list its special properties because without that information, a DM can't really use this creature.

You won't find it in any sourcebook. It's a unique quality of this creature, which is why it's in the special qualities section...

Retrospect: Needs lore section. It's nice to see a reference to Planescape even if it's a bit obscure for some newer players.

Really, that's up to the DM to incorporate it in his world. I've given enough basic information that anyone that tried to research them would have a fairly good idea of what they're about. I'm going to go ahead and assume (there goes that word again...) that the DM is going to change and tweak things a bit anyways to get it to fit into the campaign and world..

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Just to mention a lore section is completely optional.

[Stycotl]

i will put a lore section in if i get the time; i just barely got the beastie done last night as it is.

[Debihuman]

No problem about making up astral steel, although it would have been nice if you'd actually stated it. The only thing you actually wrote was this:

Astral Steel Exoskeleton (Ex): During its creation, the Clockwork Weaver becomes closely tied with the Astral Plane, giving it's part a bluish glow and unique qualities. The Clockwork Weaver gains Damage Reduction 20/- unless it is on the Astral Plane.

What unique qualities? I have no idea because you never mention it. DR 20/- isn't unique. The glow is nice fluff but you didn't back it up with any mechanics: bright as a torch? bright as candle?

Here are other samples of special materials:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm

Debby

[Sir Shadow]

Astral Steel Exoskeleton is a unique special quality of the creature. During the process of it's creation, the creature takes on this special quality. It has an intangible glowing layer that gives it DR 20/-. It glows. That's it. It doesn't give off any light. When you look at it, it appears to glow. It also gives DR 20/-. I'm not saying DR 20/- is unique, I'm saying the exoskeleton layer itself is unique!

It's not a special material! It's not even referring to anything really tangible! I could name it something else! Like Astral Bubble or something like that... What does any of this have to do with how the DM will use it? It glows blue. It doesn't give off any light. and it gives DR 20/- It's completely functional the way it is.

[Debihuman]

I'm not saying DR 20/- is unique, I'm saying the exoskeleton layer itself is unique.

It is clearer now.

I think CR is way too low. DR 20/-, Phase Armor and Recall combine to make this creature far more difficult than hit dice alone account for. Just giving it DR 20/- is pushing epic territory even though it is mitigated when on the Astral plane. However, since it is most likely to be found on the Astral plane, this seems backwards. Why should it be less powerful on its home plane? If anything, one would think it would be more powerful there.

One last thing: Caster Level is too low to cast the spells you have given it. Time Stop is a 9th level spell. Minimum CL is 17.


Edited for more Information:

Bisected: Plants get feats normally. It should have 3 feats and any bonus feats. The only creatures which do not get feats are those without Int. Having an Int of even 1 is enough.


Debby

[Sir Shadow]

Doesn't Caster Level only determine things like range and damage? Since these are spell-like abilities, it shouldn't matter what level wizard or sorcerer spell they are.

[TheLogman]

Actually, your monster has to have a CL that is at least the minimum level to cast their highest level spell. That's why it's strange to give one or two really high level spells to a monster, instead of a bunch and make it a spell caster. (Doesn't stop me though).

It also makes things difficult for say, Meteor Swarm. If my monster had a CL of 5, but he could use Meteor Swarm, his spells would be weaker than the spell usually is, which is strange.

[DracoDei]

In which case they STILL determine things like range and damage, of course.

Also, look back through her conversation with me on the subject of breaking conventions/standards, if you didn't read it the first time through. It might or might not be helpful, but I think it is relevant.

[Sir Shadow]

And besides, this is the minimum HD of the monster. Even if the example I give can't use the spell (which I'm not saying one way or the other, let the DM decide), higher HD ones will definitely be able to.

[Debihuman]

Yes, it also determines range and damage but also how easily it can be dispelled. True, it doesn't HAVE to be at the same level that the creature would normally get, but you've given it a 10-level power creep. That's a lot considering the CR of the creature. That's not to say that giving out the spell is wrong in any way because it's an ideal spell, but I really think you should rethink the caster level and challenge rating and raise both to be more appropriate.

And I've mentioned this before about how to make monsters really good. Sure you can break the rules and stretch the limits of believability and so forth, but it doesn't do anyone any good if your creature winds up being totally unusable out of the box.

Just because a thing CAN be done, doesn't mean it SHOULD be done. What works and what works BEST aren't the same thing. Advancing creatures is alway possible, but if you are going to make a 7 HD monster, it should have abilities that are appropriate to it. That usually means showing more restraint.

DR 20/- isn't appropriate to a 7 hit dice monster; giving out 9th level spells at CL 7 isn't appropriate. If you really want to keep the challenge rating to 9, you need to see how far off those things are. The only place I've ever seen DR 20/- is with epic creatures. Look at dragons to see when they get DR 20 and it's not until they have a lot of hit dice.

Can you do those things? Of course, you can.

However, CR is off no matter how you slice it. CR probably closer to 15 or 16. CR 16 with 7 HD isn't really a well-designed creature. It's good uber special abilities without the HD to back those up.

Sometimes that's done on purpose like the Grandfather but most of the time, it means TPK until it's a cakewalk to defeat without there being a middle ground that makes for a good encounter.

BTW, is Recall (sp) or (su)? You didn't mention it. Time slip probably shouldn't be (ex) because it is based on the spell; (su) would be more appropriate.

Debby

[DracoDei]

Thyme:
Even a single toxic berry would be a magic item worth hundreds if not thousands of gp, they allow escape from a multitude of deadly situations. Especially for adventurers, since (especially in a metagame sense) they rarely face challenges that can destroy them all, so individual members having an emergency escape that depends on the rest of them being able to hold a position for 1d6 hours is going to be a very minor thing in many (but hardly all) cases. I assume the Dazed effect lasts 1 round (you never said)? If so it is a very very small drawback to the berries when considered as a magic item.


EDIT:
Revisions (now that I feel motivated, partially by the critiques I have gotten) on the Words continue, I made "Word" a sub-type to avoid repeating myself too much. Skills should also be done (in theory).

[BisectedBrioche]

I've increased the duration of the dazed effect and added a point of wisdom damage to the effects.

[Debihuman]

Bisected-- your plant still should have the appropriate number of feats for its hit dice. I mentioned that earlier. As long as it has an Int, it gains feats normally. It should have 3 feats. Only creatures with Int - don't gain feats.

You should state how long the berries keep before they are spoiled. Probably no more than a week. This prevents them from becoming too reliable. Also, I agree that the gp value is a bit low. Jumping into the future for 1d6 hours is a really long time in game terms, you should reconsider changing this to 1d6 minutes or even rounds.

Temporal fruit should be a supernatural ability, rooted and camouflage would be extraordiary abilities.


Debby

[DracoDei]

Personally I can't see minutes working for the stated purpose, and rounds are right out...

1d6x10 minutes?

Note that that actually makes them BETTER tools for the PCs in most cases for an individual escaping a battle.