Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

[MorhgorRB]

*zip*

Edit:



Hate to say it but Bluebook does it better these days, they have a lot of the same features like bikes as troops with combat squads, plus the shiny bluebook wargear. I had the unfortunate experience of facing off against a fully kitted out Korsaro Khan and bike command squad (entire command squad on bikes for 90pts! It's feckin' ridiculous!) with storm shields and lightning claws. Not pretty. If you like the fluff then go for Ravenwing, but be aware they've been severely undercut as the premier bike army.

The little symbols that come with some of the vechicles (...or used too.) are decent for psyker-mentation.

That's the main problem with the new Codex ; it really killed a few of the flavour chapters by making things avaible to everyone. ...and giving smerfs all of the command upgrade-things. (Not entirely savvy to the Space Marine Codex, having only given someone else's the once over.)

Hrm. Well, I'll decide later on the RG part, but any tips or suggestions for a speed-oriented Marine army would be great.

[Erloas]

I would say that for the IG, facing Marines and facing Orks really isn't all that much different.

Both being T4, statistically speaking for every 3 orks you would kill you would kill 1 SM. Which might seem like a big difference, but considering most orks you face will probably outnumber any marines you face by 2-4 to 1 it works out ok. And in both cases they are going to want to close with you and tie you into combat.

Negating SMs armor isn't nearly as effective as forcing them to make more saves. Sure if you can get a lot of clear shots with an AP3 weapon you can kill marines quickly, but there are very few AP3 shots with a decent rate of fire and any good marine player will use cover as much as they can knowing there are AP3 weapons across the field from them. So spending points and loosing rate of fire to change a marines 3+ armor save to a 4+ cover save isn't gaining you much.

At only 500 points probably all you are going to run into from vehicles from either is transports, which is amour 10 or 11, which can be handled pretty well with str6 or 7, and I wouldn't worry too much about higher then that. So multi-lasers and autocannons, both of which also work against infantry without loosing too much efficiency (such as a lascannon against infantry). Being that most Orks have a 6+ save, the multi-laser will still negate it. Not sure on the point cost difference, but at the same range and rate of fire, against either Orks or SMs I would say the multi-laser is a bit better then the heavy bolter because both will negate most ork armor and neither will negate SM armor, but the multi-laser will wound more reliably.

For infantry weapons the plasma guns do look very good because they are very complementary to the lasguns so both can be used to good effect. Lasguns are weak, but they will kill anything T6 or less so long as you get enough shots down the field with them. At about 6 lasgun shots to kill an Ork and 18 to kill a SM it takes a lot of fire, but the good thing for guard is they can get a lot of fire for cheap. Its just a matter of making sure you put that fire to use and don't just stand around and let them dictate all of the movement because you'll never get enough shots in that way.


As for how to take the heavy weapons... what about the sentinels? If they are anything like the eldar war-walkers they can take all the same heavy weapons as the infantry, and for a cheaper base cost (war-walker being cheaper then 10 guardians by a considerable amount), they are more durable against small arms fire, and they have a lot more versatility being able to use their weapons while on the move, the biggest downfall, IMO, of heavy weapons in infantry units.

I would say get a large blast template wielding tank, a few sentinels with heavy weapons for anti-transport and anti-infantry duties, and fill the rest out with infantry that can stay mobile and fire at the same time. And don't let your opponent dictate the movement phase by hiding in a corner waiting for them to come kill you.

[Cristo Meyers]

So how does making a specialist chapter (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc) of Space Marines work now? Is it follow the most recent specialist codex or follow the newest Space Marines codex and wait for the specialist codex?

[hamishspence]

Blood Angel list is, I think, on GW site. White Dwarf had the list split over two issues. Note that the list was based on Dark Angels codex so doesn't have the Space Marine Codex stuff.

Dark Angels and Black Templars have their own codices.

Space wolves are the trickiest- they need a marine codex to play properly.

One option would be to use the SM codex for stats for units/items not statted out in Wolves, but for everything else, Wolves codex takes precedence.

Doing it this way would allow Wolves to benefit from updated items like the Storm shield, whereas the Angels and Templars are stuck with the older, inferior version.

[Altima]

Erolas: Forcing wounds on the SMurfs could not be any truer. Fact is, most of them will be hiding in cover like scared little girls so that even if you hit them with AP3 or better weaponry, they'll get a cover save. It won't be as great as their normal save, but good AP weapons usually only have a few shots.

Cristo Meyers: GW states that the specialist armies and the SMurf 'dex are two seperate army books. Treat them as differently as you would a Tyranid and a Demonhunters codex (despite how awesome it would be for my tyranid warriors to call down orbital bombardments). Can you imagine if they didn't? You could give all your Black Templars 3+ invul saves from combat shields!

There will probably be an errata update, however. Can't have the marines lagging too far behind the power curve. After all, that's why they get a new codex while other armies are still suffering after 10+ years, and other, more popular ones got the shaft by the new edition.

[hamishspence]

agreed on the armies that have books. But, Space wolves have an Incomplete Book (all vehicles in it say "See Space Marine Codex")

Hence, the wolves are a possible exception.

[Cristo Meyers]

@^ speaking as a long time Wolves player, the Space Marine codex that the new Wolves codex was supposed to need quite frankly didn't. You could very easily get by without it.

Which means finding an old copy of the Space Wolves codex...dang, that's not going to be particularly easy 'round here...least I remember some of it.

Ah well, I've got 2001 pts of Thousand Sons to go through before I can start buying (well, in this case, re-building) army #2...

...dang rent, making me have to sell off my old collection...

...dang new store opening not 5 miles away...giving me impetus to start gaming again...

[Tren]

Space wolves are the trickiest- they need a marine codex to play properly.

One option would be to use the SM codex for stats for units/items not statted out in Wolves, but for everything else, Wolves codex takes precedence.

Doing it this way would allow Wolves to benefit from updated items like the Storm shield, whereas the Angels and Templars are stuck with the older, inferior version.

Most gear in the wolves dex already says "See Codex: Space Marines" so they get most of the new gear it default, and if I'm not mistaken the SW FAQ says they have access to all available vehicle variants at their bluebook points (except for ven dreads).

As for other dexes, Templar and Blood Angels I think still have enough special rules and characters to be competitive, it's DA who were hardest hit. Deathwing is still fairly unique, but their assault termies still only have the 4++ in CC storm shield.

[Shas aia Toriia]

There will probably be an errata update, however. Can't have the marines lagging too far behind the power curve. After all, that's why they get a new codex while other armies are still suffering after 10+ years, and other, more popular ones got the shaft by the new edition.

Emphasis mine.

No offense, but are you insane? SMurfs are, by far, the most popular army. At one point in time, SMurfs were pulling in half of all sales for Games Workshop. Not just 40,000, but everything owned by GW.

As such, SMurfs always get the newest and shiniest stuff.

[hamishspence]

I thought he was talking about Templars and Angels- they got codices despite being much less common than SMurfs- and was expecting them to get errata to make sure they benefit fully from Marine rules.

At the moment Storm Shields come in 3 variants. Grey Knight, Angel, and SM.

That is too many versions of what is basically the same piece of hardware.

[Cristo Meyers]

I bet I know the answer to this, and I bet I'm not going to like it...

Do Razorbacks still exist?

[Illiterate Scribe]

They do still exist, and they're packing truly monstrous armaments now. I don't have the codex to hand, but I think the old las/plas combo is back.

[MorhgorRB]

Alright, alright. We all know that the Smurfs are a tab overpowered, and are updated with every rules change...

(Indeed, that is why I have tired of my bugs ; a 'stealer heavy list... and with the changes to rending... )

Anyway, biker/speed tatic ideas? Aside from taking a few landspeeders for the AA capability.

[Altima]

Emphasis mine.

No offense, but are you insane? SMurfs are, by far, the most popular army. At one point in time, SMurfs were pulling in half of all sales for Games Workshop. Not just 40,000, but everything owned by GW.

As such, SMurfs always get the newest and shiniest stuff.

I was actually referring to armies more popular than the ones who haven't been updated in ten years. Tyranids more popular than Dark Eldar, Tau more popular than Necrons, for example.

But while we're on the subject, I always felt that SMurfs getting supported the most because they sell the most to be a self-fullfilling prophecy. Speaking out of pure bang for the buck, nothing beats Space Marines. With little modification, your Ultramarines army can be used as a Dark Angels or Blood Angels or Black Templar or Space Wolf or even Chaos Space Marines army. No other army boasts that amount of ability. Then there are all the little special rules that make Space Marines just a tad more powerful than their contemporaries. And because Space Marines are always first to be upgraded when a new edition comes out, they tend not to get screwed over by rule changes. And then there's their glorifying fluff...

their assault termies still only have the 4++ in CC storm shield.

*stabs Tren for using 'only' in front of a 4+ invul save* Damn kids and your invulnerable saves. Back in my day, we were grateful if we got a 5+.

Indeed, that is why I have tired of my bugs ; a 'stealer heavy list... and with the changes to rending... )

Genie lists are still viable. More so, in fact. With gaunt wrapping, you can give your 'stealers a 4+ cover save, spending the points on flesh hooks when you go up the inevitable wussies hiding in cover or on feeder tendrils to make the nerf to rending more bearable. Adding scuttlers on genestealers allows them to outflank, almost guaranteeing them a charge at full strength, especially against the gunliners who try to be cute with a split deployment.

Plus the new rules have given our warriors a second chance at life.

[Tren]

*stabs Tren for using 'only' in front of a 4+ invul save* Damn kids and your invulnerable saves. Back in my day, we were grateful if we got a 5+.

Don't get me wrong, I think a 3+ invuln save in all circumstances is absolutely obscene, especially for no additional point cost. There's no doubt in my mind that it was a move driven by the need to sell more assault termie boxes. I was just making the point that comparatively they're at a significant disadvantage in terms of their save.

Genie lists are still viable. More so, in fact. With gaunt wrapping, you can give your 'stealers a 4+ cover save, spending the points on flesh hooks when you go up the inevitable wussies hiding in cover or on feeder tendrils to make the nerf to rending more bearable. Adding scuttlers on genestealers allows them to outflank, almost guaranteeing them a charge at full strength, especially against the gunliners who try to be cute with a split deployment.

Absolutely agreed, the rending nerf detracts somewhat from stealers innate killyness, but by the time you add re-rolls to hit and outflanking to avoid getting shot at all before assault, they're much better off than they were.

[MorhgorRB]

Absolutely agreed, the rending nerf detracts somewhat from stealers innate killyness, but by the time you add re-rolls to hit and outflanking to avoid getting shot at all before assault, they're much better off than they were.

Sure, adding all of the upgrades makes them still viable assault force, but that puts thier points through the roof and makes them a serious elite force, where I used to just give them carapace and run with 36 of them. And without upgrades your looking at 14 pt bolter fodder. 14 pts. For nerfed rending, 2 base attacks, fleet. Dunno.

[grinner666]

And in both cases they are going to want to close with you and tie you into combat.

Actually my SMs can be just as happy standing off at 10" or so rapid-firing IG into oblivion. AP5 is still useful, despite all the "oh, everybody's got cover saves" whining I keep hearing. Of course, the same thing goes for Orks ...

[Erloas]

Well I'm kind of dissapointed. The models I ordered showed up today and I just realized that apparently TheWarStore can't get storm guardians, so I guess I'll have to go without them for a while longer. They didn't say they couldn't get them in the emails, they just didn't add them to the pick list and I didn't catch it until they showed up. I just checked their big .xls sheet of all the GW products they can get and storm guardians weren't there. I even checked ebay and they don't have any there either (well 1 box at full retail price with shipping that is 2-3x what it should be) other then painted ones, which I don't want.
I guess I'll just have to see if any local gameshops have them when I go to SLC or Phoenix next month.


As for SMs trading fire with IG, thats something the SMs would definately win on a 1v1 basis. I just figured the SM player would get into combat to limit the attacks back, they still get the same number of str4 attacks hitting on 3s, just no longer AP5, and they are likely to finish off the unit in a rundown rather then having to shoot them all down. Also with more then a few IG units around for each SM unit, and likely things like flamers, plasma guns, grenade launchers, and the likes it would seem better to tie yourself into combat.

[Altima]

Absolutely agreed, the rending nerf detracts somewhat from stealers innate killyness, but by the time you add re-rolls to hit and outflanking to avoid getting shot at all before assault, they're much better off than they were.

Any benefit outflanking conveys is lost with the new consolodate after assault, and if you don't win the first combat with SMurfs, they'll use combat tactics+ATSKNF, break contact, and rapid fire you to death. Granted, genies should be killing the smurfies, but you know. And the advantages conveyed by feeding tendrils still make genestealers perform under par compared to the original rending (granted, it's something like a three percent difference, but you are paying more for a unit doing less).

Sure, adding all of the upgrades makes them still viable assault force, but that puts thier points through the roof and makes them a serious elite force, where I used to just give them carapace and run with 36 of them. And without upgrades your looking at 14 pt bolter fodder. 14 pts. For nerfed rending, 2 base attacks, fleet. Dunno.

You're thinking of hormies with upgrades. Naked genies (who don't come with flesh hooks, I'll remind you) are as expensive as two guardsmen with carapace armor.

Actually my SMs can be just as happy standing off at 10" or so rapid-firing IG into oblivion. AP5 is still useful, despite all the "oh, everybody's got cover saves" whining I keep hearing. Of course, the same thing goes for Orks ...

Anyone who wants to stand 10 inches off an IG gunline and trade rapid fire shots with them instead of assaulting them (especially if you come with FREE grenades) gets what they deserve. Which is usually an AP2/3 pie plate landing on your face.

Don't get me wrong, I think a 3+ invuln save in all circumstances is absolutely obscene, especially for no additional point cost. There's no doubt in my mind that it was a move driven by the need to sell more assault termie boxes. I was just making the point that comparatively they're at a significant disadvantage in terms of their save.

Yeah, you're telling me. I ran a Fateweaver Daemons army once. It...wasn't pretty. Well, it was pretty for me. Not particularly for my opponent. I felt so bad that I've never fielded the army again.

[grinner666]

As for SMs trading fire with IG, thats something the SMs would definately win on a 1v1 basis. I just figured the SM player would get into combat to limit the attacks back, they still get the same number of str4 attacks hitting on 3s, just no longer AP5, and they are likely to finish off the unit in a rundown rather then having to shoot them all down. Also with more then a few IG units around for each SM unit, and likely things like flamers, plasma guns, grenade launchers, and the likes it would seem better to tie yourself into combat.

Actually they'd get more attacks, as they could and SHOULD switch to pistol-and-CC weapon just before charging. But I didn't say trading fire was the best idea, only that MY space marines could be just as happy doing so. Hey, I like my blast and (okay, not 10" away ... more like 7") template weapons.

Not that my space marines are particularly happy with attacking IG units in the first place. My opponents and I can never seem to agree on which of us is the traitor ...

Anyone who wants to stand 10 inches off an IG gunline and trade rapid fire shots with them instead of assaulting them (especially if you come with FREE grenades) gets what they deserve. Which is usually an AP2/3 pie plate landing on your face.

Pfeh. Assuming any RF'ing tactical squad isn't already under enough cover to keep it safe, by the time it's in that kind of range enemy Basilisks and Leman Russes will have far worse things to worry about ... like at least one Bike squad with (at least one, maybe two) meltaguns and a multi-melta ... or ANOTHER tac squad set up for AT duties (i.e, meltagun and multi-melta) mounted on a Rhino, or those damned Terminators I tend to deep-strike against tanks ... in any case distracting my opponent away from a single tac squad has never been a problem for me.

[evil_d4_swarm]

On a random note:

It occurs to me that attaching markerlight drones to crisis suits or stealth suits makes them jet packers, giving them Relentless and allowing them to fire while moving...

I with they made Crisis Broadsides...

[Tren]

Any benefit outflanking conveys is lost with the new consolodate after assault, and if you don't win the first combat with SMurfs, they'll use combat tactics+ATSKNF, break contact, and rapid fire you to death.

They still have to make a successful initiative check to get away, lest they get locked in combat and take even more wounds by being subject to "No Retreat!" And given a genestealers I6 versus I4, getting a tie on an opposed roll shouldn't be too hard. And a full squad of genestealers getting the charge should kill something like 5 SMs between rending and failed armor saves? Even if they managed to get away their return fire should kill less than 2 genestealers, and then they're just sitting ducks waiting to be assaulted again.

[Cadian 9th]

peoples! soz for being slightly off topic, but this is an 800 pt army for clash of the titans tourny. after talking to peoples, one point is it will fail a little against deathwing and chaos daemons. any ideas?

Hq-JO with power sword, flamer

Elite-eversor assassin

Troop-infantry platoon
Command squad
JO, 3 flamers
Chimera transport, 2 heavy bolters,heavy stubber
10 guard, grenade launcher
10 guard, meltagun
5 guard flamer
Troop-5 grenadiers, flamer
Heavy support-3 basalisks.

[Erloas]

Why 2 heavy bolters on the chimera? Since the stubber can be used as defensive its good, and sometimes you'll get to use the primary, but I don't see a huge amount of situations where the thing is going to be sitting still to make use of both heavy bolters.

Can you vary up the basalisks at all? Being armor 10 on the sides and back and not being able to move at all and fire they are just sitting ducks for any fast moving units, deep-strikers, or outflankers. It looks like every other unit in your list is designed to be mobile and close, with assault and rapid fire weapons, no heavy weapons. So pretty much you have to either forfiet some of that mobility to hold some people back to protect them, or you have to leave them on their own to die as soon as something gets close.
If I remember right most of your other tanks should be able to move at least some and fire some weapons.
I don't know all the IG options, but the fact that the apparent use of the rest of your army is not complementory to the basilisk stands out to me.

I'm personally more of a fan of direct-fire weapons rather then templates just because their effectiveness can be figured much better and they are more reliable, even if not more powerful. I would find some mobile ways of fielding more heavy bolters and multi-lasers. With IGs great ordnance I would still take some, but I wouldn't take too many.

[MorhgorRB]

You're thinking of hormies with upgrades. Naked genies (who don't come with flesh hooks, I'll remind you) are as expensive as two guardsmen with carapace armor.

Ahhhhh-no. I'm thinking 'stealers. Hormies don't even have fleet.

[Zorg]

peoples! soz for being slightly off topic, but this is an 800 pt army for clash of the titans tourny. after talking to peoples, one point is it will fail a little against deathwing and chaos daemons. any ideas?

Hq-JO with power sword, flamer

Elite-eversor assassin

Troop-infantry platoon
Command squad
JO, 3 flamers
Chimera transport, 2 heavy bolters,heavy stubber
10 guard, grenade launcher
10 guard, meltagun
5 guard flamer
Troop-5 grenadiers, flamer
Heavy support-3 basalisks.

Well Deathwing is pretty unlikely to show up in an 800pt game. I'd drop two basilisks and take more chimera's and guardsmen with heavy weapons - most of your guys seem configured for close in fighting (with the meltas and flamers), but have no way of getting there and aside from the bassies no support.

Should you be facing, say, a predator you would have a pretty tough time cracking it. The bassilisks could do it, but they could just scatter wildly and miss. As Erolas said, some more direct fire would be much more reliable.

[Altima]

Ahhhhh-no. I'm thinking 'stealers. Hormies don't even have fleet.

Erm, a naked genestealer is more expensive than 14 points. A hormie with AG-I, AG-WS, and strength upgrade is 14 points, but at that point, might as well get a genestealer (hence why hormies are rarely used).

And hormies do have fleet. The only non-MC units that do not have fleet are warriors and the broodlord.

Actually they'd get more attacks, as they could and SHOULD switch to pistol-and-CC weapon just before charging. But I didn't say trading fire was the best idea, only that MY space marines could be just as happy doing so. Hey, I like my blast and (okay, not 10" away ... more like 7") template weapons.

Tac squads do not have an additional close combat weapon. They have a bolter and a pistol--no CCW, and no additional attack.

Pfeh. Assuming any RF'ing tactical squad isn't already under enough cover to keep it safe, by the time it's in that kind of range enemy Basilisks and Leman Russes will have far worse things to worry about ... like at least one Bike squad with (at least one, maybe two) meltaguns and a multi-melta ... or ANOTHER tac squad set up for AT duties (i.e, meltagun and multi-melta) mounted on a Rhino, or those damned Terminators I tend to deep-strike against tanks ... in any case distracting my opponent away from a single tac squad has never been a problem for me.

Guess we have different experiences. I've seen IG slaughter SMurfs, not because of low ap weapons, but by forcing the smurfs to take so many armor rolls that they break and die.

As for terminators, pfffft. Can't tell you the number of times my 80 point IST squad has melted 'em with plasma. Good times.

At any rate, wait until the IG codex comes out. Then we'll see about standing in rapid fire range on the Guard.

[Oracle_Hunter]

At any rate, wait until the IG codex comes out. Then we'll see about standing in rapid fire range on the Guard.

Wait... are you implying that the new IG Codex will have Lasguns that don't suck? That would turn the universe on its head!

[grinner666]

As for terminators, pfffft. Can't tell you the number of times my 80 point IST squad has melted 'em with plasma. Good times.

Uhhhhhhhh ... you DID read the part where I said I was deep striking the Terminators in to take care of TANKS, didn't you? S8 vs. an IG tank's rear armor of 10 = lots and lots of penetrating hits, PLUS (usually) a tank carcass to hide behind afterward.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Why 2 heavy bolters on the chimera? Since the stubber can be used as defensive its good, and sometimes you'll get to use the primary, but I don't see a huge amount of situations where the thing is going to be sitting still to make use of both heavy bolters.

Well... Here is the theory that have been presented to me:

with 2 heavy bolter (or 1 heavy bolter, 1 multilaser) and one heavy stubber, the Chimaera has a rate of fire of 9, most of them with S4+ weapons, which is quite nice. Once you have un-loaded your troops, you can use it as stationnery guntank.

One Chimaera alone isn't much of a threat. Not much armor, the firepower isn't grandiose. However, it isn't meant to be. If you have a lone Chimaera on the battlefield, people would have all the rights to laught at you, because that would mean you are a moron

It has to be part of your whole formation. When the other player is being fired upon by:

- The Chimaera

Then the target to choose is easy. When the other player is being fired upon by:

- The Chimaera
- The Stormtroopers
- One Shock Troopers squad with Lascannon
- One other Shock Trooper squad with Lascannon
- One Heavy Weapon (Autocannon) squad
- The Leman Russ
- The Other Chimaera
- The Other Leman Russ
- 3 more Shock Trooper Squads

Then there are better targets of opportunity than your chimaera (objective-gaining ones, for example). You basically get to shoot 9 "free" shots, since the ennemy has other thing to do than to snipe your lonely "not so threatening" tank.

But.. hey, 9 shots are 9 shots, and never spit on more firepower. Not to forget they are quite cheap compared to other guntanks of the game.