Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

[Cristo Meyers]

Dilemma:

I've built up a 2000 pt shopping list for a CSM army, I'd call it a Thousand Sons army, except for the Khorne Berserkers and Possessed Marines in there...but that's not important. I'm looking at it and realizing I only have a single HQ unit, the Sorceror Lord. I'm trying to figure out where I can get the points from to include a Terminator Lord. Right now I'm looking at 2 possibilities:

A) I have a single unit of Havocs (Lascannon, H. Bolter, Missle, and Autocannon) that I feel I can stand to lose. Doing the math, this would give me the exact number of points I need, but it would also put all my heavy support onto the Land Raider and myriad special weapons I have on my regular marines.

-or-

B) Since it's strongly Thousand Sons themed, I have 2 units of Sons. I could drop one of these and it would give me more than enough points to put the Terminator Lord in. It would affect my troops less since I've also got 15 regular marines and the other Sons, but I'd have another 100 or so points to fill with limited funds. I have yet to do the math to see what else I could put in to take up these points. I think I can do it without having to spend extra money.

[banjo1985]

I have a Chaos Marine force myself, not quite 2000 points but getting there, and I have a Terminator Lord. It's a good upgrade for 25 points, so if at all possible I would say it's a great option, especially with it being your only HQ.

I'd keep the Havocs, and lop just a couple of figures off your Thousand Suns squad. I think whey're 23 points, so one or two of them gone and that's the Terminator armour paid for, which I think is a good trade off.

Of course, Terminator Armour means the awkward bugger won't fit in a Rhino anymore...which I didn't realise when I bought the model.

[Cristo Meyers]

I'm not looking to upgrade the existing lord, I'm looking to add another. 1 HQ at 2000 points just seems low to me. Maybe I'm too used to playing Space Wolves where at 2000 points I had to have 3.

The Havocs are the quick and easy choice: just swap one for the other. But, like I said, then I'm spreading my heavy support a bit thin and making that Land Raider a giant target (not that it wouldn't be anyway...)

Nix a Sons unit and I'm not hurting my Heavy Support, but I'd end up having upward of 100 extra points to move around. I think I can manage by adding in another Icon Bearer and some extra plasma weapons and such, but I haven't done the math on that and I'd really like to avoid having to spend any more cash than what I already have planned.

[banjo1985]

*slaps self for not being able to read*

In that case I'd favour dropping the Suns over the Havocs, mainly to keep the options for the force open. Dropping the Havocs would reduce the forces "stand-back-and-shoot" ability, while dropping the Suns doesn't do much, as you still have a unit of them left...as you've just said in that edit.

As to what to do with the 100 spare points, 3 Bikers would be decent, coming in at 99 points. They're reasonably cheap to buy by GW standards, and can fulfil a few roles on the battlefield. They can just bomb forward and attract fire while your main troop body advances, or if you have the spare few points for an icon they can be a great way to get demons summoned early closer to the enemy. That's assuming you have demons in your army of course, I just like having something to eat the corpses after the fight.

[Erloas]

Then there are better targets of opportunity than your chimaera (objective-gaining ones, for example). You basically get to shoot 9 "free" shots, since the ennemy has other thing to do than to snipe your lonely "not so threatening" tank.

But.. hey, 9 shots are 9 shots, and never spit on more firepower. Not to forget they are quite cheap compared to other guntanks of the game.

While it is true that the chimera isn't usually a high priority target, it does depend entirely on the list. The list as was given doesn't show a whole lot of higher priority targets.
With 4 tanks total that is only 4 targets for anti-tank to go against, and depending how things are set up, theres a good chance the chimera will be a more accessible target then the basilisks.

If he has a unit in the chimera, especially if the chimera is advancing, then it becomes a much higher priority and not survivable enough to live through much. Also if it is just sitting there and shooting 3str4 and 6str5 shots, it moves up the target priority list a lot, especially compared to guard with flamers, since most anti-tank has enough range to not have to worry about flamers.

Against my eldar army for instance, since I have plenty of str4 shots to easily take care of the guard, that leaves many str6 shots to hit the tanks, which will make short work of those Armor 10 sides and rear.

Of course I also realize the second heavy bolter probably isn't more then 10-15 points, so its not a big deal, but it would probably be one of the first places I looked to free up a few points if I needed to, especially if the chimera's role is primarily that of transport.

[grinner666]

@ Cristo Meyers -

I think I'd consider dumping the Havocs before the Thousand Sons, just because Thousand Sons are Troops units and you need Troops to secure objectives. But I might consider dumping the Land Raider even before that; time and again I've seen the mighty land raider blown away by a single lucky meltagun or multi-melta, bright lance or dark lance shot, something that AIN'T gonna happen to a Havocs squad.

But probably the easiest and most effective place to free up points is to dump the Sorcerer HQ choice ... you've already got two aspiring sorcerers in the Thousand Sons squads anyway, and IMNSHO psychic powers are really kind of overrated.

Frankly I don't think I've ever fielded an army with two HQ choices ... except occasionally my Dark Eldar, and that's just 'cause I like Urien Rakarth so, so much.



Just something to consider.

[Winterwind]

A question to, fairly specifically, Paul H (or any other Chaos player who happens to have Noise Marines using their special equipment options extensively in his army).
How did you get enough sonic blasters to equip all of them with those? As I found out to my great disappointment, the standard 8 Noise Marines pack (I should have suspected something was afoul when it was 8 instead of a more Slaanesh-y number of 6) contains only one of the three sonic weapons each; now, to buy a separate pack for every single sonic blaster one would like to use is most definitely not a sane option, so I wanted to know how you solved this issue?

[Erloas]

Well GW's site has a bits order of 5 sonic blasters and a blastmaster for $17. Which is about half as much as the box. You can probably find them at some of the places that do bits orders.

[Winterwind]

Hmm, I see... I'll have to check out whether I can order those at our Games Workshop, as I'm pretty sure they don't have that in stock. Thanks.

[grinner666]

Mail order is your friend, Winterwind.

[Ash08]

I have a big game coming up at the "local" GW this Saturday(local being an hour away) Its a 1500 point each team bash. I'm working with my favorite Tau player against a hordy force of Orks and Tyranids. Its going to be a pitched battle anhialation. I haven't quite gotten around to discussing his list with my Tau friend, but we have a pretty good idea on my list and how we're going to use it.
My list:
HQ:
.Chaplian with jump pack and bolt pistol 115

Troops:
.10 tactical marines with flamer, missle launcher, plasma psitol, powerfist(this shall be known as Tactical Squad 1) 210
. 5 Scouts with bolters and 5 camo cloaks 90
. 5 scouts with bolters and 4 camo cloaks 87
. 4 tactical marines and a sarg, with bolt pistol and chainsword 90

Fast Attack:
. 6 member Assault squad with flamer, plasma pistol, storm shield, power weapon 158
. 5 Vanguard veterans with relic blade, 2 plasma pistols, 2 power weapons, jumpacks 250

Heavy Support:
. 5 Devastators with 4 heavy bolters, powerfist 159
. 5 Devastators with 2 lascannons, 2 plasma cannons 260
. Predetor with Auto cannon and 2 hv. bolters 85
Grand total: 1504

Right now I'm thinking of ditching the powerfist in the devastators and replacing it with a meat shield in the 4 hv. bolter squad.

Our usual set up (I play this orky guy and the bug alot, so I'm very used to their set up) is to have a hill on each side, some scattered cover in both deployment zones, and a ruin of both short sides of the table. To top it all off, we usually have a band of low profile wreckage as difficult terrian in the center.

We plan to use this set up to our advantage. Using scout moves and infiltrate, we'll get my scouts in posistions either in the ruins or in the difficult terrain. They'll spend as much time taking advantage of my scouts hit and run while rapid firing their plodding opponents. Hopefully my friend will opt towards a Stealth team, some pathfinders with pulse carbines, or a crises team with flamers. With these units, we hope to efectivly slow and bolck or opponents advance.
A quick note on our opponents: The Tyranid player is rash, blustery*blech*, has an insane love of monsterous creatures, and is a total tactical fool(however he is one of my friends, so I have to play him sometimes). The Ork player is a bit different. He is less rash, alot less blustry but still not very savy in tactical matters either. However since it never pays to underastimate your opponenet here we are, with a plan to cover all possibilities.

The Devastators and the predadtor will make use of the hill to astablish a(hopefully effective) firebase. I'm pretty sure we'll include a hammerhead and a broadside team up their. Then I'll have my jump troops and the chaplain deployed against infiltrative and flanking units. The Ork player has Kommandos and the Bug lictors and A LOT of genestealers. The Jump teams will stay in assualt range of me and the tua fire bases. I'll probably place the Vangaurd Veterans by the Tau and the Assault squad by me. Then i'll have my Tactical 1 combat squad with a assualt themed unit(sarg with fist and plas, flamer) and a shootier squad(missle launcher) the assault combat squad and the will stay in the front lines(behind difficult terrain if possible) and the shooty one will stick by base of the hill.

Thats pretty much all for deployment. Battle stratagy is pretty simple: Hold them with the scouts as long as possible, I';m pretty sure they'll rank them as a number 1 target, but if not, I can have my tacticals meet them head on. The Devavstaotrs job is to keep up a withering fire. Hv. bolters on infantry, las/plasma cannons on vehicles and creatures. The Assualt squads are they're for flankers(I don't think i'll have move forward almost at all, their strictly defensive). Its slightly incomplete(needs tau) but its all I have for now

Questions and comments are welcome, Advice on the points is requested. Tactic criticing is wished for. And thanks are given for reading such a long post !

[grinner666]

First, you can't give PART of a Scout squad camouflage cloaks. The codex specifically says "the squad can have camo cloaks" at +3 points per model; it's not a single-model upgrade like a plasma pistol is. Nice try, though.

Second, you are really, really weak in Troops choices. I'd suggest dumping either the Assault squad or one of the Devastators squads, or maybe both, and taking more tactical marines, and maybe a couple of Rhinos. Scouts frankly ain't worth poop in trying to defend an objective. Especially if they don't have any heavy weapons, which yours don't. And if they're armed with sniper rifles (you didn't say), they are nearly WORTHLESS in trying to TAKE an objective.

Christ, I miss the days of BS4, WS4 Scouts ...

You didn't really give any details on what the Tau player is planning on taking, but more Troops choices is always a good idea ... or maybe if you don't want to concentrate on Troops you should just dump one of your Devastator squads for a more mobile Heavy Support choice ... you could afford a Land Raider with the points you spent on the Lascannon-armed Dev squad, if you have one handy ... especially if it happens to be a Crusader or Redeemer. Against Orks and 'Nids, that might be an excellent idea. Genestealers and Lictors are pretty worthless against a heavy AV.

Actually, screw that. Against Orks and Bugs, what you need is Vindicators and Whirlwinds. Lots and lots of crappy-armor-save-shredding pie plates. At least two a turn, if you've got 'em.

And they're cheap in points, too ... so you can take them AND some more tactical marines.

[onasuma]

A question to, fairly specifically, Paul H (or any other Chaos player who happens to have Noise Marines using their special equipment options extensively in his army).
How did you get enough sonic blasters to equip all of them with those? As I found out to my great disappointment, the standard 8 Noise Marines pack (I should have suspected something was afoul when it was 8 instead of a more Slaanesh-y number of 6) contains only one of the three sonic weapons each; now, to buy a separate pack for every single sonic blaster one would like to use is most definitely not a sane option, so I wanted to know how you solved this issue?

Take bolters. Add 3 wires going to backpack. Resculpt the end. Easy.

[Winterwind]

Mail order is your friend, Winterwind.

Heh... yeah, I probably should first check what the conditions on sending stuff to Germany are (or check whether the German branch of Games Workshop doesn't happen to have these offers itself for that matter) before automatically assuming it's something available to people lucky enough to live in one of the anglophone countries only. Bad habit.

Take bolters. Add 3 wires going to backpack. Resculpt the end. Easy.

I admit I had been wondering how that would work out myself. It's just me never having tried something like that before and not being sure whether the result would be at all suitable for looking at (much less, something to be proud of) that makes me hesitate...
I mean, I could never hope to sculpt something that looks anything like Citadel miniatures.
On the other hand, a sonic blaster hardly has all that many features and decorations itself...

[Oracle_Hunter]

I admit I had been wondering how that would work out myself. It's just me never having tried something like that before and not being sure whether the result would be at all suitable for looking at (much less, something to be proud of) that makes me hesitate...
I mean, I could never hope to sculpt something that looks anything like Citadel miniatures.
On the other hand, a sonic blaster hardly has all that many features and decorations itself...

Plus, it's Chaos Tek - looking weird is practically required!

Now, normal SM or Eldar stuff is another thing entirely...

[Altima]

HQ:
.Chaplian with jump pack and bolt pistol 115

Assuming you're going to stick this guy with the assault vets or assault marines. Probably vets since they'll have more attacks.

Troops:
.10 tactical marines with flamer, missle launcher, plasma psitol, powerfist(this shall be known as Tactical Squad 1) 210

You might want to get rid of the plasma pistol to save points. It won't help against gaunts, may overheat, and most of your MC kills from that part of the squad will be from the powerfist.

. 5 Scouts with bolters and 5 camo cloaks 90
. 5 scouts with bolters and 4 camo cloaks 87

As said before, all members of your squad need camo cloaks. Consider taking combat shotguns to you can move around while attacking. If you stay still, they'll assault you. If you move around...you'll probably still be assaulted, but possibly do more damage.

. 4 tactical marines and a sarg, with bolt pistol and chainsword 90

I think you'd be better off ditching the scouts and boosting this squad up to max. You'll almost the same amount of scoring units, who'll be more survivable (better saves) as well free heavy and special weapons.

Fast Attack:
. 6 member Assault squad with flamer, plasma pistol, storm shield, power weapon 158

You may want to treat this squad as a suicide one. Five man squad, two plasma pistols, and a powerfist. Basically, you fly in, plasma the target (monstrous creature) then charge in to, hopefully, finish it off with the powerfist. Rinse, repeat. Alternatively, you can get the bare minimum of 7 members with a flamer and use it to take on gaunts. Possibly acting as a screening unit.

. 5 Vanguard veterans with relic blade, 2 plasma pistols, 2 power weapons, jumpacks 250

This squad may also be a bit too fancy. If you're using heroic intervention (which you should, given the jumppacks), you can't shoot the pistols, so you really should try to kit out the squad for CC, preferably for taking on an MC (hive tyrants will go before you and carnifexes are slow, so don't be afraid to go powerfisty). Also, independant characters (chaplain) can't join units that do HI. So the chappy will go on assault marines.

Heavy Support:
. 5 Devastators with 4 heavy bolters, powerfist 159
. 5 Devastators with 2 lascannons, 2 plasma cannons 260

Problem with the devs is that after a single wound, you'll start losing heavy weapons, and they'll probably be shot at fairly early in the game, considering their firepower. Also, what is the powerfist for? All it does is make a shooty unit have some CC ability, but if you get ambushed by a lictor, you'll probably kill it anyway, and anything else that might get you (like an outflanking genie squad) will gut the unit anyway.

. Predetor with Auto cannon and 2 hv. bolters 85
Grand total: 1504

Problem with only having one vehicle in the army is that it's a prime target, and even glances will cause your vehicle to not shoot, and orks are no slouch at taking out vehicles, either. It all depends on what your Tau ally is taking. If he's taking battlesuits in lieu of hammerheads (which would be stupid), this will probably be a prime target. Consider removing it to buff out some of your tac squads.

Our usual set up (I play this orky guy and the bug alot, so I'm very used to their set up) is to have a hill on each side, some scattered cover in both deployment zones, and a ruin of both short sides of the table. To top it all off, we usually have a band of low profile wreckage as difficult terrian in the center.

So, what you're saying is, the terrain heavily favors you. Both orks and Tyranids will have to get close to unleash their firepower, while Tau and certain Marine armies benefit greatly from sitting in cover and plugging away. With no cover in the middle of the table (unless the 'low' wreckage counts, which it seems it wouldn't), the gaunts and boyz will get shot to pieces. And, of course, difficult terrain will slow them down, giving you possibly another turn.

We plan to use this set up to our advantage. Using scout moves and infiltrate, we'll get my scouts in posistions either in the ruins or in the difficult terrain. They'll spend as much time taking advantage of my scouts hit and run while rapid firing their plodding opponents. Hopefully my friend will opt towards a Stealth team, some pathfinders with pulse carbines, or a crises team with flamers. With these units, we hope to efectivly slow and bolck or opponents advance.

The problem with combat tactics is that you still need to pass the I test to get out (and, of course, lose combat in the first place). Most tyranids have equal I to your scout squad, so it'll be a 50-50 shot. Secondly, five scouts won't stop much. A devilfex (2x-TL devourers, comes in at about 114 points) will, in a single barrage, take out 4 scouts, possible more. A deviltyrant will take out all five, according to math-hammer.

Stealth teams are great against horde armies. Doubly recommend them. Pathfingers are meh, and crisis teams should NOT have flamers. His crisis suits would be better with twin-linked missiles pods or some other variant that can take out MCs or large squads of boyz/gaunts/genies (such as missile pods and burst cannons).

A quick note on our opponents: The Tyranid player is rash, blustery*blech*, has an insane love of monsterous creatures, and is a total tactical fool(however he is one of my friends, so I have to play him sometimes). The Ork player is a bit different. He is less rash, alot less blustry but still not very savy in tactical matters either. However since it never pays to underastimate your opponenet here we are, with a plan to cover all possibilities.

Given the terrain, I'll seriously doubt that your ork opponent is going to put his boyz in buggies (if he does, remember dangerous terrain tests). Tyranid Monstrous Creatures aren't as bad as people tend to assume. The carnifex is awful in close combat. If he happens to field the 350 point close combat carnifex, you can almost ignore it. For the Tyrants, shoot them, as they are rather dangerous in close combat. The flying varieties are a top priority.

The Devastators and the predadtor will make use of the hill to astablish a(hopefully effective) firebase. I'm pretty sure we'll include a hammerhead and a broadside team up their. Then I'll have my jump troops and the chaplain deployed against infiltrative and flanking units. The Ork player has Kommandos and the Bug lictors and A LOT of genestealers. The Jump teams will stay in assualt range of me and the tua fire bases. I'll probably place the Vangaurd Veterans by the Tau and the Assault squad by me. Then i'll have my Tactical 1 combat squad with a assualt themed unit(sarg with fist and plas, flamer) and a shootier squad(missle launcher) the assault combat squad and the will stay in the front lines(behind difficult terrain if possible) and the shooty one will stick by base of the hill.

The problem with genestealers is that they can now outflank. This means they can come in from behind your 'blockers'. They'll either hit a high priority vehicle (remember, CC attacks against vehicles hit rear armor, which is almost always 10 or 11) or they'll immediately start taking out vulnerable troops.

Broadside units are not as effective as the Hammerhead because their railguns cannot take the submunition shot (which is great).

Lictors aren't worth their points. You can ignore it fairly well as even firewarriors can (and will) club it to death in any sort of numbers. Be aware that if it joins an assault with genestealers, its feeder tendrils will make the battle very painful.

Thats pretty much all for deployment. Battle stratagy is pretty simple: Hold them with the scouts as long as possible, I';m pretty sure they'll rank them as a number 1 target, but if not, I can have my tacticals meet them head on. The Devavstaotrs job is to keep up a withering fire. Hv. bolters on infantry, las/plasma cannons on vehicles and creatures. The Assualt squads are they're for flankers(I don't think i'll have move forward almost at all, their strictly defensive). Its slightly incomplete(needs tau) but its all I have for now

The heavy bolters should target genestealers or warriors, as the bolters will cut through their armor. Use your other tac squads to take out the gaunts, or have your Tau allies help with pie plates. If you're not going to use the veteran assault marines with heroic intervention, you should just use assault marines instead. They'll probably end up dying anyway, but you can field more of them to make them a heavier roadblock (and do some damage to gaunts and boyz).

[Wandiya]

Second, you are really, really weak in Troops choices. I'd suggest dumping either the Assault squad or one of the Devastators squads, or maybe both, and taking more tactical marines, and maybe a couple of Rhinos. Scouts frankly ain't worth poop in trying to defend an objective. Especially if they don't have any heavy weapons, which yours don't. And if they're armed with sniper rifles (you didn't say), they are nearly WORTHLESS in trying to TAKE an objective.

Ash stated that this was going to be a annihilation not capping objectives game. so taking rhinos is only good for giving a tiny bit more fire power but empty drop pods with deathwind launchers would do much better given the ability to fire blast templates. It also depends on what models Ash actually haves. Genestealers with a lictor assualting your devastators from behind won't be very good for you or Mr Tau scouts are pretty good at keeping an objective if they've got cameo cloaks and sniper rifles I've tried it against my friendly neighborhood tau just need some ruins and your good
Just my 2 cents
Edit: misread Ash's post got rid of paragraph

[Zorg]

Heh... yeah, I probably should first check what the conditions on sending stuff to Germany are (or check whether the German branch of Games Workshop doesn't happen to have these offers itself for that matter) before automatically assuming it's something available to people lucky enough to live in one of the anglophone countries only. Bad habit.

The recent 'death of the bitz service' that the US and UK experienced is in fact due to GW deciding to streamline the bitz service and make every country have the same range available. So while the available lines was cut drastically (though they did release certain sprues in return), people no longer have to order from overseas to get what is available.

Also any item online you should be able to order in to your local for no additional cost - it's certainly the case here (I've ordered in books, specialist games stuff and bitz sprues). And I looked on the German site and the sonic blasters are there -

Emperors Children Schallwaffen Bitz-Pack: Das Set enthält 5 Sonicblaster und einen Blastmaster sowie die passenden Arme. 15,00 € (given the site's new style may just take you to the US site).

[Winterwind]

Ooooh, awesome! Thanks a lot for that!

[Ash08]

Yay! Replies! Alright time to get answering... getting rid of the scouts would kill the commando stratagy in the center of the board majorly, so I think i'll keep them. On the subject of camo cloaks, my bad thanks! On the Vangaurd Veterans, I think i'll ditch the plama diffinatly and maybe the power weapons... not sure I want to lose those... I'd also get rid of the powerfist in the devastators. Should I use those extra points to buy a drop pod(with deathwind) and max out the 5 guy tactical squad? Or should I just do an empty drop pod(with deathwind) and meatshields for the devastators. The original purpose of the assault squad and the Vangaurd veterans is to protect against flankers, which is why I'd deploy them in the back. Or what I could do(and which is sounding pretty tempting right now) is turn the vangaurds into a basic assault squad and save alot of points to spend on more devastator meat shields. On the subject of anti-hord fire support, I have none... the heaviest thing I have is a land raider, which since the people I play with are pretty lax, I could say was a crusader or a redemer(which would be better?). On the subject of the DT in the center, it would probably provide cover(to make things fair) but not block LOS. Hows that sound?

[Cadian 9th]

You may want to treat this squad as a suicide one. Five man squad, two plasma pistols, and a powerfist. Basically, you fly in, plasma the target (monstrous creature) then charge in to, hopefully, finish it off with the powerfist. Rinse, repeat. Alternatively, you can get the bare minimum of 7 members with a flamer and use it to take on gaunts. Possibly acting as a screening unit.

This squad may also be a bit too fancy. If you're using heroic intervention (which you should, given the jumppacks), you can't shoot the pistols, so you really should try to kit out the squad for CC, preferably for taking on an MC (hive tyrants will go before you and carnifexes are slow, so don't be afraid to go powerfisty). Also, independant characters (chaplain) can't join units that do HI. So the chappy will go on assault marines.

Has ANYONE noticed the best monster killer is the eversor assasin? he gets +D6 attacks on the charge, with his neural gauntlet for always wounding on 4s, his needle pistol too, 12" charge range, he can easily cause 4 power weapon wounds on the charge(I5).

and he costs less than a assualt squad. not bad for a model that kills ten smurfs on the first turn literally without breaking sweat.

Yeah, on my guard army, i took out the basalisks, added a rocket launcher support squad and then another chimera, more storms and more upgrades.

at this point im considering shedding the eversor, despite his awsomeness, and chucking in better weapons, another infantry squad, a HSO among other stuff.

cheers!

Waaaaaaaaaaaagh! Yes, its coming. I ate the commisar when he said giving up wasnt an option.

[onasuma]

Has ANYONE noticed the best monster killer is the eversor assasin? he gets +D6 attacks on the charge, with his neural gauntlet for always wounding on 4s, his needle pistol too, 12" charge range, he can easily cause 4 power weapon wounds on the charge(I5).

and he costs less than a assualt squad. not bad for a model that kills ten smurfs on the first turn literally without breaking sweat.

I disagree. Most armies can shoot a single assassin down with a single squad, and with 3 or so volleys of fire hes definatly gone. So few wounds on such an expensive model. Granted, not as expensive as his main targets but none the less he doesnt have enough wounds, high enough toughness or a decent enough save to surive long enough to do much. My nid zilla army is testement to that.

[Erloas]

Well I had 3 games yesterday, and 3 more wins. These games were a fair amount closer.
The first two games were 2000 points vs Tyranids and Chaos Daemons. I don't think its necessary to post my list, it was the same list I used against IG a few weeks ago (but I can if anyone wants, not sure if I posted it after the first game or not). The Tyranid game was a rematch against the SM player I played earlier and wiped out, the Daemons was a rematch against the nurgle CSM player I played for my second game (and I'm going to face his Sisters of Battle next time we play, probably at the end of the month). The last game was 1500 points against IG, this was someone new to the gaming group and hadn't played much/at all with the new rules.

The Tyranid Game

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The Tyranid game was Capture and Control, pitched battle deployment, he had 2 units of genestealers, 1 with a broodlord, 2 carnifexes, flying hive tyrant, 5 warriors, 1 unit of 30 hormagaunts, and 2 units of 10 gaunts.
He had the carnifexes upgraded to T7 and a 2+ AS, so it took a lot to kill them, but I eventually downed one and had the other mostly dead. Most of his army was held back to defend his base, and actually he pretty much never went after my base for the whole game, so I had about 300-400 points sitting on my base not doing anything.

His genestealers didn't do much, they killed a unit of 3 bikes and finished off a unit of guardians (all 1 that was left at that point) and they were wiped out in the process, mostly by the dire avengers. The broodlord took revenge on the avengers but was then killed himself. The hormagaunts were a pain with a 12" charge, my banshees spent most of the game playing with them.

I won by controlling my own base and his base was uncontrolled. He didn't really send much of anything after my base, I was really surprised his outflanking genestealers didn't come in on the side of my base but instead came in on his side to help defend his base, but really they were pretty much completely useless because about all they managed to do is absorb fire that could have been going at something else, not an ideal job for genestealers. He could have caused a draw if he could have got his unit of gaunts onto his base once they came back from without numbers but without a synapse creature around they spent the last 3 rounds cowering in the middle of the field about 1 movement+fleet away from his objective. The game ended on turn 6 with me having lost 7 of 16 units and he had lost 6 of 9 units, he had a carnifex with 1 wound left, 1 gaunt, and the aforementioned cowering unit of 10 gaunts.

The Daemon game

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He started out this game saying he had a cheesy list. He had a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch (with a rerollable 3+ invul and allowed everything within range to reroll saves as well), Epidemius, 3 Chaos Daemon Princes, and 5 units of plague bearers, one of 8 the rest of 10). This one was Dawn of War and Capture and Control. Dawn of War really was annoying for me because my snipers and dark reapers never really got into place to do anything the entire game, both of which would have been very nice against most of his units.

He got fairly unlucky though because the first thing he did was deep strike the greater daemon right on top of my Wave Serpent (with a load of dire avengers that got to his capture point first turn before he had a single unit on the board) and was destroyed. Epidemius deep struck right off the board, and rolled poorly to come back in and wasn't seen until the bottom of the 4th turn. One deamon prince got tied up with my unit of 6 bikes with a autarch and spent 4 turns trading blows with him, whom he finally managed to kill on the 5th turn. One thing I noticed today was that the daemon prince is T4, so he either upgraded him or at some point I got his S and T confused and ended up making all of my to-wound rolls harder then they needed to be (I think I just forgot to ask the last 2-3 turns and just assumed it was T5 like everything else in his army).

Nothing much really stood out in the game. The game ended on turn 5 with me holding his objective and we were contested on my objective. He had 1 full units of plague bearers and one unit with 3 left at my objective and 1 full unit a move or so away, I had my dark reapers, farseer, and a whittled down unit of guardians on my objective, with a unit of bikes, and war walker within a movements distance of it and another unit of guardians close by. My wave serpents had took off to hunt epidemius but didn't get a chance because the game ended on turn 5. He had pretty much nothing near his objective and I had my rangers, and dire avengers at it, and a war walker, and banshees close by, with my scorpions 2-3 turns away (but likely to have ended up playing with that daemon prince that was still tied in with the remaining jetbikes)

And last, the Imperial Guard game

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This game was an objective game with 5 objectives and pitched battle deployment. I used one of the same lists I had already made up earlier and used in one of my first games, with some of the EMLs that I've decided really just aren't that useful. One objective was in each of our deployments with the last 3 across the middle. He had 2 Leman Russ, 1 unit of 3 lascannons, 1 of 3 autocannons, and JO and crew with plasma guns, 1 unit of 6 ogryn, and 6 units of guard with a variety of heavy weapons.

His Leman Russ decimated my dire avengers first turn, which is lucky for him because otherwise they would have likely decimated that flank of his infantry and would have easily defended 2 objectives at the same time (with range, they couldn't have captured the other but they definitely could have killed anything attempting to hold it) As it was the exarch managed to live through everything and held one objective by himself. The other two center objectives were both contested, him with 1 guard and me with my farseer on it, the other with about 5-6 guard on it and me with a bike, and we both still controlled the ones in our base. This game also ended on turn 5.

Things of note... his Leman Russ dropping a template on my guardians and rolling 4/5 1s to wound, the unit died later to lasfire, so it was mostly a matter of how quickly he would have been able to start at shooting something else. With only the bikes around to shoot it probably wouldn't have changed much. My farseer singing speared one of the Leman Russ, the other lived through the fight, but likely only because it ended on turn 5 and I didn't have another turn to drop lots of str6 shots at its rear as well as the singing spear from the farseer on it as well.

His ogryns charged my wave serpent that was getting ready to drop off some banshees to help take that side objective, so they couldn't disembark without moving, he also destroyed both weapons, but it didn't really matter. Luckily the scorpions happened to outflank to that side that turn so the wave serpent moved off to let the banshees take another objective. The scorpions cleaned house and moved on to try to clear the other objective, but ended up leaving that single troop alive to contest the point.

The wave serpent was then assaulted by the unit of 3 lascannons simply to keep the banshees from being able to disembark and assault in the same turn (because the wave serpent would have to move for them to get out and then they couldn't assault) which was actually a very good move because if he hadn't those banshees would have walked all over his unit of guard in the bunker (the objective in his deployment), as it was they ended up moving, disembarking and shooting down the lascannons with their pistols and the game ended before they got to clean out the bunker.

My war walker outflanked on the other side, killed an autocannon with shooting and assaulted the other 2 to make sure they couldn't lay waste to him on his turn. They ended up staying tied in combat for 2-3 turns with neither doing much (which was fine by me, he needed those autocannons a lot more then I needed the war-walker).

Had we went to round 6 I would have likely cleared out his objective (at very least contested it, I couldn't have claimed it either way), I would have pretty much been guaranteed the second objective in the center, and the 3rd objective in the center may or may not have changed.

Some of these games were pretty close. Had the greater daemons in the daemon game not been delayed and killed the game would very likely have ended in a draw. I would have liked to see what I could have done against that rerollable 3+ invul. I figured it would take about 40 shots with my dire avengers (not counting the exarch's extra BS) to do 1 wound, so had I been able to sustain fire on him I very likely could have killed him, but I would have lost a lot of fire that was needed to clear out the plague bearers on his objective and I don't think I could have finished them all off by the end of the game.

[Ash08]

So.... the summary of yesterday's game. My army was pretty much the same as I planned, however I got rid of a few powerfists and plasma pistols and downgraded my Vangaurds to Marines, I also ditched the chaplian in favor of a budget chapter master. I used the extra points to buy a Razorback, and boost my 5 member tactical to full strength. My Tau friend took 2 hammerheads, 2 broadsides, 4 squads of fire warriors, 3 crisis teams(I think one of them was his HQ, but I'm not sure). The board was an intresting combo of scattered craters, a really big ruin smack in the center, and bunker in each corner(obviously, the Tau and I made much good use of the ruins and the bunkers). We and our opponents decided that the game would work that the teams roll off against each other, and then the members of the team roll of for who goes first in the team. We, of course, lost the roll off, and the Tyranid and orks set about deploying. The Nid guy had taken 2 fexes, 1 hive tyrant , 3 zoanthropes, 2 full squads of genestealers, 1 squad of gaunts, a unit of warriors, some lictors, and a squad of hormogaunts. The ork player had a warboss, boss Snikrot, a Big Mek with a shokk attack gun, 3 or 4 full mobs of boys, a mob of nobs,a unit of kommandos, a looted wagon with a boom gun*shivers*, a deafdread and a unit of lobas. They deployed pretty jumbled on their side of the board, the majority of their units bravely( or stupidly) out of cover. The ork player put his unit of lobbas behind the bunker, his big mech in the bunker, and his kommandos with the warboss and boss snikrot in reserve. We deployed around a hill with the fire warriors around the base and his hammerheads on top. I surrounded the fire warriors with 4 combat squads one of them contianing my chapter master. He put his broadsides in the bunker on the right, and I put my devastators on and in the bunker on the left. The scouts infiltrated into the monsterous ruin in the center. On the first turn the Genestealer managed to assualt my Chapter Master's combat squad wipping all but the chapter master out... the chapter master failed his leadership but escaped to another combat squad. The big mech managed to get double 2s on his shokk attack roll and we got him to kill 12 of his own boys. My devastators managed to shock the deafdread and stun the Big mek, the firewarriors, banished the genestealers into the warp with their pulse rifles. By the end of the game we had won by 4 kill points, the final score was 7 to 3. All of the kill points being on me( the drop pod, 1combat squad, and the scouts). The tau had lost 1 firewarrior. It was a glorious victory, but I feel kind of wierd about being the meatshields...

[Erloas]

By the end of the game we had won by 4 kill points, the final score was 7 to 3. All of the kill points being on me( the drop pod, 1combat squad, and the scouts).

You are saying you had a 3000 point game and only 10 total units were killed? That seems... unlikely, especially considering you had 2 horde armies on the field. With that much firepower on the field it seems like it would be hard not to kill more more units then that. Unless the firepower was just spread around all over the place and no one concentrated on finishing off units.

[Myatar_Panwar]

So for my up-and coming chaos army, I have decided to ditch Kharn for a normal lord so I can use a daemon weapon. Annnd, well, I liked the idea of riding around on an unholy steed of darkness and all that, but the normal model is just kinda meh in my minds eye:

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Soo, after seeing it suggested on another forum, I think I'm going to use the frikin' awesome fantasy model:

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With a little modification, I think I can make it work. Like replacing the shield with a bolt pistol. But do you guys know if the normal Juggernaut is on a base (and what size) or if its just standing normally? Need to make this as accurate in size as possible.

[MorhgorRB]

I must admit, my test playing with Sammael makes me want to ditch all thoughts of going for cheese, and playing it by theme, just to have him.

I couldn't find anything to stand up to him with a 5 bike unit in support. I would agree that it's all dependant on luck (I was having a wonderful night with the dice gods) and so-such, but I simply loved driving up, rapid firing the (three) bikes bolters (and the two equipped plasma guns), dropping Sammael's Plasma Cannon template, then charging all in the same turn. Sheer wonderful.

[grinner666]

So for my up-and coming chaos army, I have decided to ditch Kharne for a normal lord so I can use a daemon weapon.

Why can you not use a Khorne lord with a daemon weapon?

[MorhgorRB]

Why can you not use a Khorne lord with a daemon weapon?

On the roll of a 1 he gets himself with a power weapon hit. ...Though he does get the very neat +2D6 attacks.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Ah, I meant to say that I'm ditching Kharn. Not Khorne. Accidentally added that e there.

Which is why the pics I listed were of Khorne lords. :)

and slow forum is slow.