Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

[Cristo Meyers]

Can anyone tell me how many option bits there are in the Chaos Battleforce set? I'm trying to get a feel by looking at the picture on the website, but I can't quite tell how many power weapons, plasma pistols, and the like there are...

[Erloas]

Generally speaking (as far as I've seen with any battle force or battalion (fantasy) boxes) they contain exactly the same parts as the individual boxes.

So if you have any boxes already you can generally tell how they are going to break it down to get 15 models from the base box of 10. Considering that it says it can make 1 champion (usually the only one that can take a power weapon) and 1 person with a plasma gun, I'm going to guess that is all it has, is 1 of each.
I'm going to guess that there are 3 spurs of 5 bodies, then 2-3 spurs of bolters/arms and then a single spur with the command/upgrade bits like the plasma gun, heavy bolter, icon, power weapon, and an upgraded looking head or two.

Another way to figure out exactly what they have if you haven't purchased at least a single CSM box is to check the bits order sites and see if they have any full spurs that will give you a good idea of what is there. Of course I'm sure someone here will know for certain too.

[Myatar_Panwar]

From GW's site, the sprue's normally accompanied with CSM.
Link

I was going to have strictly Khorne Berserker's for my troops, but I may have to pick up that CSM box if only for that great accessory sprue.

[Winterwind]

Can anyone tell me how many option bits there are in the Chaos Battleforce set? I'm trying to get a feel by looking at the picture on the website, but I can't quite tell how many power weapons, plasma pistols, and the like there are...

Sorry for answering only now, I was skiing the last week and came home only today.

I just checked the contents of my Chaos Battleforce set sprue for sprue, the run down would be as follows:

• 3 sprues with parts for 5 generic Chaos Space Marines with 5 bolters, boltpistols and close combat weapons each.
• 1 sprue with equipment, including particularly ornate body parts for a champion, one powerweapon, one powerfist, two plasma pistols, one each of all five icons, one arm holding a pole to attach an icon to, one meltagun, one plasmagun, one heavy bolter and one flamer
• 2 sprues with parts for 4 Khorne Berzerkers with 4 boltpistols and close combat weapons each. Each sprue also contains one additional pistol which looks totally different than the standard boltpistols; I'm a bit confused, because it does not look exactly like the plasma pistols from the equipment sprue (or plasma pistols in the codex) either, but I'm pretty sure it is one nonetheless (at least it does resemble a plasma pistol slightly more than a boltpistol, and it would be a logical inclusion). There are also three addtional swords on each sprue which, to me, look more like powerweapons than normal weaponry, but considering there is no such option available for berzerkers I don't think they are meant to be powerweapons; probably just decoration.
• 1 sprue with parts for the Possessed Marines, including two pairs of wings
• 4 sprues with parts and decorations for the Rhino, one of which includes one synchronized bolter, one Havoc missile launcher and one thing I can't identify, but which presumably is the combi-weapon.

[horngeek]

I recently worked out the following 750pnt Space Marines army (Ultramarines, if you want to know) and want to see what you guys think.

HQ
Epistolary with Terminator Armour, Force Weapon, Storm Bolter Quickening and the Avenger - 180 pnts

TROOPS
Tactical Squad with flamer and missile launcher - 170 pnts
Tactical Squad with flamer and missile launcher - 170 pnts

ELITES
Terminator Squad with assault cannon - 230 pnts

[Myatar_Panwar]

[*] 2 sprues with parts for 4 Khorne Berzerkers with 4 boltpistols and close combat weapons each. Each sprue also contains one additional pistol which looks totally different than the standard boltpistols; I'm a bit confused, because it does not look exactly like the plasma pistols from the equipment sprue (or plasma pistols in the codex) either, but I'm pretty sure it is one nonetheless (at least it does resemble a plasma pistol slightly more than a boltpistol, and it would be a logical inclusion). There are also three addtional swords on each sprue which, to me, look more like powerweapons than normal weaponry, but considering there is no such option available for berzerkers I don't think they are meant to be powerweapons; probably just decoration.[/list]

I do think that the pistol is supposed to be a plasma pistol. And did it really come with normal (non-chain) swords? I just got the normal Khorne box set (12 of the guys), and it came with no normal/power swords. Just swords in scabbards to be attached for decoration. I was also a little mad that it didn't come with a power fist either. I wanted to have the squads skull champion wielding one, but noooo. I had to use one off of the chaos terminator sprue (which is sparse as hell already).

[onasuma]

Thats why all my terminators are standard imperial with a load of green stuff around them. The sprues are so much better.

[Winterwind]

I do think that the pistol is supposed to be a plasma pistol. And did it really come with normal (non-chain) swords? I just got the normal Khorne box set (12 of the guys), and it came with no normal/power swords. Just swords in scabbards to be attached for decoration. I was also a little mad that it didn't come with a power fist either. I wanted to have the squads skull champion wielding one, but noooo. I had to use one off of the chaos terminator sprue (which is sparse as hell already).

Ohhhh, those are scabbards... yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah, those are the same, then.

Speaking of Chaos-related sparsity of particular parts, I have two questions (probably would fit better into the models thread, but since we are talking about this topic here already...):

One, where do you get arms and poles for icons? So many other types of units can be equipped with icons, but it seems the only ones who are actually accompanied by icon parts are normal Chaos Space Marines - do you buy a Chaos Space Marine box for every icon you want to use, or do you model them somehow, or what?

And two, I noticed the Raptor champion model seems to come automatically equipped with a powerclaw (which is freakin' stupid; why did they make it like that?!). I'd prefer to use the model, as it is more ornate than normal Raptors, but I don't have the points to equip the champion with powerclaws, and even if I had I don't think I would choose this particular option, so, what am I supposed to do here? Cut off his left arm? Somehow, I can't help but think there is a high risk for the results to look less than satisfying here (on a metal model, no less)...

[Zorg]

And two, I noticed the Raptor champion model seems to come automatically equipped with a powerclaw (which is freakin' stupid; why did they make it like that?!). I'd prefer to use the model, as it is more ornate than normal Raptors, but I don't have the points to equip the champion with powerclaws, and even if I had I don't think I would choose this particular option, so, what am I supposed to do here? Cut off his left arm? Somehow, I can't help but think there is a high risk for the results to look less than satisfying here (on a metal model, no less)...

Eh, welcome to wargaming circa 1994 ;) The advent of decent plastics is only a fairly recent event, and pretty much every metal assault marine sergeant (and most sergeants in general) seems to have been sculpted with a power fist.

Given he has a matching pair, if you were to give him a weapon in his right hand you could leave the hands as is and say he has a sword or plasma pistol or what have you.

For Icons ge a hold of some dowel (kebab skewers are also the right size) or brass rod, drill a hole in a regular marine fist - an outstretched pistol arm works well too - and cut an icon out of plasticard or use leftovers from the box.

[Cristo Meyers]

Eh, welcome to wargaming circa 1994 ;) The advent of decent plastics is only a fairly recent event, and pretty much every metal assault marine sergeant (and most sergeants in general) seems to have been sculpted with a power fist.

Or a chainsword. I can count the number of sergeants with power weapons that weren't fists on one hand.

[Winterwind]

I see. Okay, thanks.

I'd rather try to stay true to WYSIWYG; hmm, maybe I can cut off this powerclaw-arm somehow after all, to replace it with something more suitable. In the worst case, I have one champion model more than I need anyway, so there is some room for error.

Or I'll reconsider my army list. I guess a powerclaw-pair wouldn't be too bad, either, if I can find the points...


Hmmm, I wonder if the frame of some sprue could be cut into an icon-pole...

[grinner666]

I've posted some thoughts on piece replacement for metal models in the Models thread, where this conversation really belongs.

[Winterwind]

Hint taken. My apologies.

[Zorg]

Or a chainsword. I can count the number of sergeants with power weapons that weren't fists on one hand.

True - I guess before the initiative penalty power fists were alot more popular and saw more play than power swords. And more people used them since they were all you could get models for ;) Mind you I've still got piles of weapons from the old imperial close combat sprue.

Raises an interesting point; do you make the army based around your minis or the minis to match the planned list?

I personally do a bit of both - collect units I want to play, but also buy cool minis and put them in a list to see how they do. Recently I picked up some attack bikes to use in a tourney, but I think the models are pretty average and only have them for the game. Conversely I'm putting Chronus (as Sgt Gossow) in a list just because the model's sweet and I want to see her on the table (thus ensuring she'll get blown up first turn and fail to escape the wreckage ).

[Illiterate Scribe]

True - I guess before the initiative penalty power fists were alot more popular and saw more play than power swords. And more people used them since they were all you could get models for ;) Mind you I've still got piles of weapons from the old imperial close combat sprue.

Nah, powerfists, if anything, have become more powerful than any of the other weapons. Every marine squad seems to include a sergeant just waiting to 'SURPRISE POWERFIST' a passing MC, tank, or walker.

[onasuma]

I personally do a bit of both - collect units I want to play, but also buy cool minis and put them in a list to see how they do. Recently I picked up some attack bikes to use in a tourney, but I think the models are pretty average and only have them for the game. Conversely I'm putting Chronus (as Sgt Gossow) in a list just because the model's sweet and I want to see her on the table (thus ensuring she'll get blown up first turn and fail to escape the wreckage ).

Models. If the model isnt cool, you wont want to build or paint it, and therefore your army will end up being half hearted and dull. An army list on the other hand is mainly in my opinion for people who just want to play the game. Sure a loose theme is fine, or even a strict one, but only if that allows you to grab everything that you want. Id hate to, for example, not be able to buy whatever shiney new daemon prince comes out next (hoping slaanesh) because my list didnt include it. For this reason I have more than 6 chaos lords of varying sizes and forms and 4 deamon princes.

[Bryn]

Raises an interesting point; do you make the army based around your minis or the minis to match the planned list?

Very definitely the models, which might go some way to explain why I lose quite often

For example, I didn't need to have a superheavy, and if I did, the optimal choice by far would have been to take a standard Macharius or a Macharius Vanquisher instead of the very-overpriced Macharius Vulcan. Doubly so with 5e. However, the Macharius Vulcan looks awesome, and fits well with the style I've been aiming for with the army. As a result, that's what I went with.

Similarly, I could have taken a Baneblade, but I didn't think it fitted the story, or that it looked appropriate amidst my army. I didn't take one, despite the release of the plastic kit.

Leman Russ sponsons would be useful as a backup weapon if the main gets destroyed. However, they look super-undetailed on the Forge World Mars Alpha pattern Russ, so I didn't take any.

I don't entirely go by models, to be fair. Some choices, like the Centaur, are more inspired by what they can do (with four flamers on board, that is) than how they look. Although the Artemia pattern Hellhound looks fantastic, I didn't need to take three - I'm taken three because it is great at roasting Gaunts, 'Stealers and Orks.

[Mr._Blinky]

I'm actually working on a Codex for my custom Renegade Marines army right now. When I'm done with the rules, I was wondering if anyone would be willing to take a look at it for balance issues? I'm relatively inexperienced, so I'm probably not the best judge, though I do have a fairly veteran friend helping me.

One of the main focuses of the army is only unique, elite infantry. In the same attack that had the chapter declared Excommunicate Traitoris, the vast majority of their armor and much of their infantry were wiped out in an Inquisition-ordered Exterminatus. There are less than three-hundred of them left, and only a small token number of tanks and walkers. As a result, the list is centered around my own custom Elite choices that replace standard Veterans (they can't take Sternguard or Vanguard), while Dreadnoughts and Devastators make up the majority of Heavy Support (Dreads cound as a HS choice, and most tanks are a 0-1 choice). Also, pretty much all of the army's infantry can take Infiltrate for a modest cost, which also makes sense with the army's fluff.

The reasons for all of this stuff will make sense if I post the chapter background later along with the stats. Putting it simply, one of the main reasons they are Excommunicate Traitoris is that the Inquisition declared them heretics because of their obsession with progress in opposition to the stagnation of most of the Imperium. Not necessarily good progress, but the point is that they want changes to occur, and have actually formed a very loose alliance with the Tau as a way of surviving.

As an example of the unique Elites here are two:

1. Hunters: Essentially veteran Assault Marines. Fast Attack choice, with a commander upgrade that makes them Elites or possibly HQ. Instead of having a pistol an close-combat weapon, they are instead armed with a pair of bolt pistols that count as twin-linked at range and two close-combat weapons in CQC. They operate a lot like suped-up Seraphim, but they can't break away from combat like Seraphim and instead make up for it by having their pistols counts as Rending in close combat, as well as being able to use their weapons AP. I'm thinking about 30-35 pts per model.

2. Razors: Elite Sniper Scouts. It's always bothered me that snipers, a job that requires far more training, was always given to the newbie marines. As a result are the Razors, an Elite choice of scouts with BS 5 (WS is still 3 though) and the ability to booby-trap any terrain they're hiding in for defense against assaults. Like Hunters, they have a commander upgrade for their sergeant.

I'm also thinking of a third kind of Elite that uses Tau weaponry, such as pulse carbines or rifles. The Elites are being designed somewhat like a toned-down version of Eldar Aspect Warriors, in that they are very effective at one thing but little else, such as the Hunters being CQC monsters and the Razors being peerless snipers. Both can get easily taken apart at any other range though by pretty cheap units, and for far less cost, since they're all very expensive without being any hardier than normal marines.

One of the things that you'll notice is the commander unit upgrade for the sergeants. This is kind of like the Sergeant Telion Scout Sergeant upgrade that normal marines can take, wherein the squad can have their sergeant upgraded to a unique character. The two are:

1. Lieutenant Ravner, for the Hunters. Thanks to the alliance with the Tau, he wields a pair of dialed-down plasma pistols (S6 AP4) that count as him having S6 rending power weapons in CQC. Extremely costly upgrade, obviously, and his squad is essentially used for Deepstriking near enemy HQ units for assassinations.

2. I haven't decided on a name for the Razor's commander, but he'll likely be BS6, have full power-armor without losing the ability to infiltrate, and have a suped-up sniper rifle with an AP score, likely AP 3 or 2. Also a costly upgrade.

So yeah, the entire army is designed around the idea of everyone either Infiltrating or Deepstriking, something that I was actually able to do back in 4e thanks to Chapter Traits before they removed them. Also there's the Elites, who I want to use to give a unique feeling to the army.

I'll post the chapter background and some of the stuff I've been working on later. A lot of the choices I've made will make much more sense once I can show why I made them. I just wanted to put this out there before I took a long post to get out the real fluff and crunch.

[grinner666]

Hunters: Frankly I'd rather have Vanguard Veterans, each of whom can take power weapons and/or plasma pistols. If you want your Hunters to compare to that kind of weaponry, you should give them special ammo that allows them to Rend in BOTH kinds of combat, missile and assault. And to be quite frank, they'd better still be at least a little cheaper than V V's. Rending really isn't all that great.

Razors: BS5 is something that's generally reserved for heroes and single-character units like Assassins. I'd reduce the BS to 4. The special abilities sound interesting, but I'd want to see more specifics about points cost.

Also, you should probably consider switching the names; the guys with Rending in Assault (or both, whatever) should be called Razors (razors are close-in weapons) and the guys with long-range sniping weapons should be called Hunters.



All in all the ideas are interesting, but I'd want to see how they fare against a non-traitor SM army before judging. BTW are you planning to let them continue to use the "And They Shall Know No Fear" rule? That would probably go against the fluff that surrounds that rule; obviously they do NOT have sufficient faith in the Emperor any longer to remain that steadfast.

Raises an interesting point; do you make the army based around your minis or the minis to match the planned list?

Neither. I generally decide on a theme first, then build my army from there. For example, when I decided I wanted a fast, heavily-armored force I decided to play White Scars Space Marines. When I decided I wanted lots and lots (and lots) of antitank weaponry, I went with an Iyanden Eldar army. Now that I'm interested in/considering a mechanized infantry type of force, I'm thinking about turning a bunch of Cadians into a Steel Legion company.

Then, when I've decided on a theme and which army will be best suited to it, I MAKE the minis look good.

[SolkaTruesilver]

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Very definitely the models, which might go some way to explain why I lose quite often

For example, I didn't need to have a superheavy, and if I did, the optimal choice by far would have been to take a standard Macharius or a Macharius Vanquisher instead of the very-overpriced Macharius Vulcan. Doubly so with 5e. However, the Macharius Vulcan looks awesome, and fits well with the style I've been aiming for with the army. As a result, that's what I went with.

Similarly, I could have taken a Baneblade, but I didn't think it fitted the story, or that it looked appropriate amidst my army. I didn't take one, despite the release of the plastic kit.

Leman Russ sponsons would be useful as a backup weapon if the main gets destroyed. However, they look super-undetailed on the Forge World Mars Alpha pattern Russ, so I didn't take any.

I don't entirely go by models, to be fair. Some choices, like the Centaur, are more inspired by what they can do (with four flamers on board, that is) than how they look. Although the Artemia pattern Hellhound looks fantastic, I didn't need to take three - I'm taken three because it is great at roasting Gaunts, 'Stealers and Orks.

And after this, people wonder why Imperial Guard commanders have a reputation of no-common sense

You make me think of "Legally Blond" . NEVER take up an important piece of equipment if it contradict with your fashion tastes... hehehe..

[Oracle_Hunter]

You make me think of "Legally Blond" . NEVER take up an important piece of equipment if it contradict with your fashion tastes... hehehe..

This is why the Eldar are so fabulous! Striking Scorpions just go with everything

[Winterwind]

I think I'm running on a mixture of fluff, model appearance and effectivity.
I tried to get an effective list together, but there were plenty of units I knew I would include no matter how effective or ineffective they might be or whether they would fit well into the army or not (Noise Marines, for instance), simply because I liked their fluff. I also made sure to get at least one unit dedicated to each Chaos God and used mostly the respective gods' favoured numbers, even where it was rather unpractical.
On the other hand, there are also models I bought simply because I found they looked awesome, or had some artistic vision of a particular unit I wanted to put together, no matter if it's going to fit into the army or not.

This is why the Eldar are so fabulous! Striking Scorpions just go with everything

I got myself an Eldar codex meanwhile (is that thing about handing out free codices after somebody collects a full army a Games-Workshop-wide thing, or is it Germany only?)... those things are terrifying.
Though the most fearsome thing have got to be exarchs. Their upgrade costs less than upgrading a Chaos Marine model to a champion, but typically gives them far more benefits (not just one additional attack, as with the champions, but also more accuracy in close and ranged combat and often better armour!)

[Eldan]

That's probably why three out of four Eldar armies I knew back in the last edition were Biel-Tan: there special rules allowed them to use aspect warriors as troops. I always thought they were boring and their colours ugly, so I went with Alaitoc.
Also, I never got any free codex. But we also don't have any games-workshop-shops (games workshops?)

[Winterwind]

Also, I never got any free codex. But we also don't have any games-workshop-shops (games workshops?)

They are called 'hobby centres' here.
In Germany, at least, they hand out a card with, basically, an army organisation plan on it (though with only 4 troops and 2 each of support, fast attack and elite), and whenever one buys models, they stamp the according entry on the card; when one has collected all stamps, one can pick a codex for free. The idea is, I believe, that once one has finished collecting one army, why not start collecting another?
(I almost have my second card completed now! )

[Cristo Meyers]

They are called 'hobby centres' here.
In Germany, at least, they hand out a card with, basically, an army organisation plan on it (though with only 4 troops and 2 each of support, fast attack and elite), and whenever one buys models, they stamp the according entry on the card; when one has collected all stamps, one can pick a codex for free. The idea is, I believe, that once one has finished collecting one army, why not start collecting another?
(I almost have my second card completed now! )

Now that's a good idea...I wish mine did that since I'm damn near through my Chaos army thanks to all the overtime I've had to work (I love being the only guy qualified to do an actually menial task...)

I forgot how much marathon painting sucks. 10 Chaos Marines in 4.5 hours. From plastic grey to based and clear-coated. And I've got to do the same to a Rhino tonight...

I'm looking to free up some points for my 750 1000 list and I'm thinking about switiching out Bolt of Change on my Aspiring Sorcerer with Doombolt. The only other real option is to drop the Mark of Tzeentch from my Sorcerer Lord, and I've had too much luck with 4+ invulnerable saves lately to really want to do that...

[Oracle_Hunter]

That's probably why three out of four Eldar armies I knew back in the last edition were Biel-Tan: there special rules allowed them to use aspect warriors as troops. I always thought they were boring and their colours ugly, so I went with Alaitoc.

Really? I assumed everyone would take Ulthwe for Black Guardians and Seer Councils. It's what I did anyways - more for BS 4 Guardians than the Council, to be fair.

[Bryn]

And after this, people wonder why Imperial Guard commanders have a reputation of no-common sense

You make me think of "Legally Blond" . NEVER take up an important piece of equipment if it contradict with your fashion tastes... hehehe..

I didn't think it was that unreasonable.

For the record, I try to apply good optimising sense to constructing the rest of my army. I don't waste points on useless upgrades, instead spending them on moar infantry, and I ensure every squad is built towards a purpose (no lascannons and flamers in the same squad or anything like that).

...but I take Sabre platforms instead of normal heavy weapons. What can I say? They're awesome.

At the end of the day, I'm there for fun. A great looking tank is automatically much more fun to build and paint with than one that is effective, but aesthetically displeasing. Having an unoptimised, but themed army isn't a problem when nobody else does, and a challenging game is much more interesting than an easy one.

Regarding the Baneblade: I eschewed a Baneblade for fluff reasons, not aesthetic ones. A Macharius could be justified for a smallish army like this one... something as huge and precious as a Baneblade, that's so difficult to unload on a planet and so ponderously slow when crossing the Tyranid-infested forest, would not fit in the story.

Additionally, I am treating Verdis as a planet that is presumably close to a Forge World or other manufacturing planet, giving them access to some of the Imperium's (or rather the AdMech's) more advanced technology. That's the main principle when deciding appearance - the planned Vostroyan army would instead emphasise the gothic and ancient aspects of the Imperium, and yes, then I probably would take a Baneblade.

And... Legally Blond? ........

[Mr._Blinky]

All in all the ideas are interesting, but I'd want to see how they fare against a non-traitor SM army before judging. BTW are you planning to let them continue to use the "And They Shall Know No Fear" rule? That would probably go against the fluff that surrounds that rule; obviously they do NOT have sufficient faith in the Emperor any longer to remain that steadfast.

They're pro-Emperor, anti-Imperium. One of their beliefs is that the man who brought massive progress to the human race would probably be a little miffed at the Imperium's current stagnation. This is one of the reasons they were declared heretics.

The final straw though was what they did with their flagship, now the only ship they have left. It's a strike cruiser called the Noctem Angelus, and they modified it by tinkering with existing Imperium tech and captured Tau and Eldar tech to make a highly-inefficient but technically functional cloaking field. A while later, while the Bone Knights (yeah, that's the chapter name, forgot to mention it) were fighting in a massive Chaos temple, the Inquisition claimed that the chapter had been corrupted by Chaos and called an Exterminatus down on them. All of their armour above ground was annihilated, and the majority of their forces were buried in the bowels of the temple, from which they fought there way out over a period of months. They then allied themselves with the Tau, who had also been participating in the conflict (it was a Tau-Chaos-Imperium three-way, with the Tau trying take the planet from the weakened Chaos forces once the Imperium turned tale), and who helped them hammer out a few (but only a few) of the bugs with their cloak. They currently have an uneasy alliance with the Tau, which could pretty easily bloodily fracture at any moment, likely with the result of the Bone Knights being wiped out.

Hunters are the remains of a company of Assault Marines that were trapped in the very bottom of the temple, and who took the longest to get out. They took massive casualties, and were all somewhat tainted by Chaos, and as a consequence cut out there own tongues to enforce silence on themselves. Lieutenant Ravner, the leader of the Hunters, is the only one who can still speak, and is referred to as the Voice of the Hunters.

I did contemplate swapping the names of the Hunters and Razors, and am still considering it. The simple reason for the current names is that I came up with the Hunters before the Razors, and I just never really bothered to switch them.

[Baxter190]

Z-axis, you mentioned you have a plot or something of a sort. You running a campaign?

[Oracle_Hunter]

The final straw though was what they did with their flagship, now the only ship they have left. It's a strike cruiser called the Noctem Angelus, and they modified it by tinkering with existing Imperium tech and captured Tau and Eldar tech to make a highly-inefficient but technically functional cloaking field.

You're gonna want to cut out reference to Eldar tech. Anything like their Holofields is based on psyker-technology; unless your techs are all moderately powerful psykers, they're just not going to be able to make any Eldar-based technology work.