Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

[SolkaTruesilver]

How you wrote up the list I didn't know how many troops you had, I guess it was implied to you that most of the units were 10 models base, I didn't know that.

For comparision, my eldar 2000 point list happens to have 70 infantry as well, considering eldar are fairly elite (somewhere in the middle in terms of horde and elite) and guard are supposed to be hordy it still seems a bit low.

As for helping with the list more, I just don't know the IG well enough. I've killed them a couple times but I have no idea on all their options.

70 Infantry as well? Ouch.. Ok.. Well, I'll wait until an actual IG Master will burn me on a stake before re-tooling that list (which will happen within the next hour, I am sure. Z-Axis, I'm looking at you).

But the problem is, except for a (little) more shock troopers remaining, and 20 Rambo-esque soldiers meant to be Conscripts, I don't have models remaining..

But then, i can always go buy more Shock Troopers. You never have ennough Shock troopers. I seriously miss Heavy Weapon teams tho...

[Erloas]

Well after looking around some I have little better idea of what I'm looking at. (as a side, the two lists I glanced over at 40konline had 110 infantry/hw at 1750 and another with 170 at 1850, though the last was a foot-slogger list mostly)

It looks like most of what you have for anti-horde is the lemen russes and basilisk, and while they are great at potentially killing a lot, they can kill very little too. In my last game I faced 2 lemen russes and a basilisk too, and between the 3 tanks they were only fully responsible for a single kill point, when a well placed basilisk shot wiped out an entire group of dire avengers in a single shot. Other then that they hit a few things here and there and they killed some, but in the end they weren't reliable enough to kill units. They weakened up 3 other units, but not to the point where they were no longer effective.

The chimeras have some anti-horde, but given their low side armor and the fact that they are likely to be moving up they are also very likely to get shot in the sides and it isn't going to take a lot to disable or destroy one. With only 2 transports and very few other units that might be moving up with them, I see them being taken down quickly. *Personally I would target them as a fairly high priority, not as much because they are dangerous, but because they are one of only a few units that are likely to be moving much, and if I can control the movement phase I can control pretty much the whole game. Especially in an objectives game where there are few other units likely to go for an objective with much of a chance of getting there quickly or alive. I would target them over the lemen russes because I know I can take care of them quickly and not have to worry about them, where as shots at a lemen russ is likely to be completely ineffective and wasted until I can get close enough to hit them in CC, with meltas, or in the rear. Although a lot of players would probably target the lemen russes first because they are more dangerous. It also helps that I have 10 units with str6 shots that are likely to destroy a 10 armor vehicle. Obviously that isn't the case for all opponents.


As for your anti-tank/MC that is obviously the Lascannons, and they are good at it, but how you have them broken down you are essentially paying 75points (I believe) for a single lascannon shot, and statistically speaking you are going to need on average 2 shots to get a hit, and about 4-6 shots to make sure a vehicle is useless (of course it can happen in 1 and it can not happen after 10). With your 3 lascannons split up like that you are looking at essentially 2 turns for 225points of troops to remove a single vehicle. Of course with 2 shots you are likely at least keeping it from shooting back, which is sometimes almost as good.

The 3 autocannons together look pretty reasonable, not great at anti-meq, but decent at medium troops (not so much hordes at likely only 3 hits a turn) and great against light vehicles.

I'm not sure what the Hellhound is capable of.

The storm troopers look pretty good, I just don't know if they have enough support to get things done. They don't have the numbers to take a lot of shots in CC or shooting and they don't have the saves to survive a round if they get stuck out of CC within enemy fire range.

One other thing about the lascannon squads is that without being able to move they are likely to be dropped on in short order by deepstrikers, outflankers and bikes/jetbikes. It takes on average 18 shots to kill a MEQ with lasguns, which means even at rapid fire range and with the lascannon none of the units can really protect itself from most things. At least if the lascannons were in their own group and you had 3 groups of infantry protecting them that gives you more shots at anything closing and several other units for the enemy to chew through before they get to the cannons, giving your cannons another turn or 3 to shot at the big stuff. You also don't want to be stuck with the choice of shooting the lascannon at something big and not being able to have the rest of the squad even try to protect itself or having the entire unit try to protect itself and basically waste the shot of the lascannon.

It just seems that the heavy weapon crews, the lascannons especially, are at a cross-purpose with the rest of the unit, and actually the more expensive part of the unit. I like having as much of my unit as possible dedicated to a single type of task so I get the most out of the points.

I'm not sure exactly how the tau stealthsuites fit into things.

[Zorg]

Oh, and a quick question. Dreadnaught Close Combat weapons, do they act exactly as a power fist? As in, reduces his attacks to Initiative 1? Because that is what everybody at the shop says. I doubt it though, cause it does not say so in the rulebook, at least anywhere I could find.[/spoiler]

Well everybody at the shop is wrong Rules on page 73 of the rulebook: it's a power weapon that dobles strength, and there's nothing about initiative order changing.

[Altima]

Well everybody at the shop is wrong Rules on page 73 of the rulebook: it's a power weapon that dobles strength, and there's nothing about initiative order changing.

This is correct. The dreadnought is so huge and powerful that it does not find the weapon (DCCW) to be unwieldy, and retains normal initiative (at 4-ish, I think). I believe it loses initiative or attacks if it's stunned or shaken. Plus the weapon can be destroyed (bringing the strength down by half).

[Winterwind]

Need advice for my army list again.

Spoiler

Show

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Terminator armour, Demon Weapon|145
Troops|10 Chaos Space Marines|1 melta, 1 lascannon|180
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|Powerfist, meltabombs|213
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Troops|5 Plague Marines|1 melta|125
Troops|5 Plague Marines|1 plasma gun|130
Heavy Support|5 Chaos Space Marine Havocs|1 lascannon, 3 missile launchers|170
||

Total:

|998
Troops|6 Noise Marines|5 Sonic Blasters, 1 Blastmaster|185
Fast Attack|8 Chaos Raptors, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Tzeentch, 2 meltas; meltabombs|260
|Chaos-Rhino|Inferno-missile launcher|50
||

Total:

|1493
Heavy Support|3 Obliterators|none|225
Elites|6 Possessed Marines|Icon of Slaanesh|176
Elites|3 Chaos Terminators|1 heavy flamer, 1 powerclaw-pair|105
||

Total:

|1999[/table]

How important do you think is this lascannon on the Tactical squad? Because I have been thinking about the list with Erloas' teachings in mind (i.e., whether each unit has a distinct role and position in the overall strategy and realized that, while the rest of the army is fine probably, the TacSquad is decidedly schizophrenic - on one hand, they are supposed to march forward, shoot the enemy with the firepower of all their numbers (admittedly not really high, but still the unit with the most models in the whole army) and claim objectives, all of which does not really mesh well with this expensive heavy lascannon. So, I've been thinking whether a plasmagun wouldn't actually suit the purposes of this team much better; I don't have my codex with me here at work, but if I'm not mistaken this should free up 5 or 10 points, which in the former case could be used for a personal icon for the berzerkers and in the latter for an Icon of Chaos Undivided for the TacSquad itself (obviously on someone else than the guy with the plasmagun!).
Thing is, I'm not sure whether this lascannon is not actually important for the army, and lack the experience to estimate that. It seems to me I could do without it, but what do I know? Hence, my plea for advice.

Also, I'm not sure about the ideal role for that second Rhino, and whether to mount the missile launcher on it. If it rolls forward with a melee squad, it is guaranteed not to live long, and it will probably not be able to use its launcher while on the move anyway. On the other hand, it could also stay in the far back, shielding the Havoc squad from possible flankers and carrying them to other positions if their initial one should not give them enough worthy targets anymore; in this case, the missile launcher would decidedly be useful.
The thing is, the points for this missile launcher would probably go into a powerweapon for the Raptor champion, so I'd better make up my mind before putting those together. And since the practical worth of that Rhino is something I completely lack the experience to estimate, I figured I'd better ask for advice regarding that, too.

And finally, I'm not sure if I shouldn't actually do whatever I can to get Demonic Possession onto those Rhinos. After all, they won't do much good for carrying troops to the battlefield if they keep getting stunned. Or isn't that mandatory?

[Bryn]

70 Infantry as well? Ouch.. Ok.. Well, I'll wait until an actual IG Master will burn me on a stake before re-tooling that list (which will happen within the next hour, I am sure. Z-Axis, I'm looking at you).

Well, I can't say no to a good witch-burning...

Considering how many times I've got the rules wrong, though, take my advice with a grain of salt (which will, of course, be deducted from your salt ration).

Mostly, it looks pretty good. You haven't spent too many points on upgrades (as opposed to getting more models), which is wise.

There are a few minor nitpicks.

If I were you, I wouldn't put a meltagun and a lascannon in the same squad (platoon 2 squad 1). A lascannon squad can sit towards the back and take advantage of their range, but a meltagun (like a flamer) requires you to get quite close before it is effective. Every time you move to get into range with the meltagun, you can't fire the lascannon, and every time you sit still to fire the lascannon, you probably won't be in melta-range.

There are a couple of ways you can deal with that. Your command squads have the advantage of Chimeras to let them get closer to the enemy, and hence into melta range. Consider moving the meltagun into those squads, which can take more than one special weapon.

(On the other hand, it appears that you're planning to send them into combat, which is suggested by the power sword on the officer. Though I've given all my officers powerswords, mostly to make some nice conversions, in general I wouldn't advise it: Guardsmen have so few attacks and at such low strength that they're not hugely effective in combat. On the other hand, a powersword is cheap enough not to really matter at this size of game, so go ahead and give them to officers if you like )

Essentially, when you have multiple weapons in a squad, try to pick weapons which work well together - similar purpose and range - so you can get useful shots out of both every turn you fire.

Can't fault your tanks.

Right now, I'm away from books, so I can't really talk about wargear choices. In any case, apart from that one squad, it looks pretty good.

Personally, I'd allow a fluff-justified combination of two armies, e.g. Tau and Gue'la like you have. This is particularly true because both Tau and Guard are shooty armies, so you don't really get an unfair advantage.

More words later!

[Killersquid]

Sorry, can't give you any advice WW, don't have and haven't played against Chaos.

But I also have a list that needs looking over, I posted it earlier, but it wasn't answered. Its a Speed Freeks army (lotsa red), and it revolves around mostly around speed, and the vehicles abusing the Big Mek's Force Field.

Spoiler

Show

{table] Type|Unit|Upgrades|Cost|
HQ|Wazdakka Gutsmek| |160|
| | Big Mek | Kustom Force Field, 3 Grot Oiler|90|
|Troops|11 Boyz, 1 Nob|1 Big Shoota, Power Klaw, 'eavy armor|117|
| |11 Boyz, 1 Nob|1 Big Shoota, Power Klaw, 'eavy armor|117|
| |Trukk|Red Paint Job, Grot riggers|45|
| |Trukk|Red Paint Job, Grot Riggers|45|
| |5 Warbikers, 1 Nob Biker|Power Klaw and Bosspole|190|
|Elites|11 Burna Boyz| |165|
|Heavy Support|Battlewagon|Red Paint job, Killcannon, grot riggers, armor plates, deff rolla, 4 big shootas, 'ard case|240|
|Fast Attack|2 Warbuggies, 1 Skorcha|3 Red paint jobs, 3 grot riggers|130|
| |5 Nob Bikers 1 Painboy Biker|4 Power Klaws, 1 Big Choppa, 1 Bosspole, 1 WAAAGH! Banner, Grot Orderly, 6 Cybork Bodies|290|
| | | |Total|
| | | |1499|[/table]

I'm thinking of getting rid of the riggers on the Buggies, as if the gun dies, its pretty much dead anyway (or next turn). Anything else I should do? The trukks are dedicated for the boyz, and the Wagon will carry the Burnaz and Big mek.

[Illiterate Scribe]

While it's a downright cheesy tactic, have you considered more musical wounds, killersquid?

When you have a unit of Nob bikers, each armed with different equipment, I believe that the casualty allocation rules with a complex unit mean that you take one wound off each model before they start dropping, thus circumventing the 'if thou suffer enough wounds to remove a model, then THOU MUST' rule. Add in a painboy, and you have a monster, near-invincible, death unit ready to rain down attacks (or dispense several dozen twin-linked S5 shots) into nearby units.

[Winterwind]

I'm pretty sure it's "distribute wounds evenly on all models, roll saves together for models of same type, allocate unsaved wounds within each group of identical models in such a manner as to, if possible, remove entire models".

[Erloas]

Just one more thing to say about the IG... while the lasgun is pretty much the weakest gun in the game it can still kill things. The key to killing things with them is of course mass fire. It takes an average of 18 shots to kill a T4 3+save model, it takes 12 shots to kill a T3 3+ model (eldar elites, tau elites I believe too), it takes 8 shots to kill a T3 4+ model (eldar mediums, others too I'm sure) and it takes about 6 shots to kill a T4 6+ AS (such as tyrnids or orks, slightly more factoring in the 6+ AS, but not a lot). That seems like a lot of shots until you consider that you get about 3-4 IG per MEQ, and probably about 1:1 to 2:1 against the CC horde. It just means you have to be able to lay down the fire as quickly as possible and keep it up. Against the 12" range of most CC units pistols (since guard have the biggest trouble at winning once things get into CC) you should get 1-2 shots at long range and 2-4 shots at rapid fire range, so given your relative point cost and the number of shots you get you really should be able to come out fairly evenly.
That however can't happen if the majority of your lasgun infantry have to shoot at the same target as your anti-MC/Vehicle heavy weapons.


As for the Ork list, if I count it right you have 35 infantry, 12 bikes, and your vehicles (buggies are vehicle right? GW page isn't up atm). At 1500 points that is very few for a horde army. I'm not sure what the bikes are capable of. It seems like if the enemy can disable your trukks early on, which being AV10 all around will be short work from most anti-tank shots considering there is a 50% chance of destroyed or immobilized on a pen, then there is no way you have enough boyz to make it across the field. It would only take about 3 wounds for them to start having to take morale tests again and they aren't likely to pass too many of them.
Obviously though this is supposed to be mechanized, so its expected to have fewer numbers... Without knowing what the bikes or the HQ can do its hard to say too much. My fights against Orks so far have been almost entirely infantry with a few walkers, so not too familiar with their vehicles or bikes.

[SolkaTruesilver]

:
If I were you, I wouldn't put a meltagun and a lascannon in the same squad (platoon 2 squad 1). A lascannon squad can sit towards the back and take advantage of their range, but a meltagun (like a flamer) requires you to get quite close before it is effective. Every time you move to get into range with the meltagun, you can't fire the lascannon, and every time you sit still to fire the lascannon, you probably won't be in melta-range.

Oh, Bloody Hell, you are right! I forgot that I have spare Grenade Launchers and Flamer guys..

Okay. hum.. the Officer with the Medic will have 3 flamers with him. I will combine the two meltaguns together with the other officer. I wish to keep the Power Sword for the General, but merely because his model have one, so I want to make it look good...

I will also spread some grenade launchers among my Lascannon guys. Do I have to pay for Krak and Frag grenades when I buy a Grenade Launcher?

I will have to cut a little in term of points.. hum.. Any idea? Are the Rough Terrain Mod. really necessary? I wanted to make my Chimaera really fast, even taking it trough hard terrain if necessary.. Cameleoline cloaks seems like a good alternative to my weak armor (and armor-piercing weapons). When you think about it, Sharpshooter only increases the shooting probability from 50% to 58,3%. Is it worth 50 points?

... yhea, probably..

Hmm.. maybe do away with the sponsor weapons on my Leman Russ? Are those really necessary? Or the Heavy Stubbers on my Chimaera?

[Killersquid]

While it's a downright cheesy tactic, have you considered more musical wounds, killersquid?

When you have a unit of Nob bikers, each armed with different equipment, I believe that the casualty allocation rules with a complex unit mean that you take one wound off each model before they start dropping, thus circumventing the 'if thou suffer enough wounds to remove a model, then THOU MUST' rule. Add in a painboy, and you have a monster, near-invincible, death unit ready to rain down attacks (or dispense several dozen twin-linked S5 shots) into nearby units.

Yea, that's what I'm doing, and it is a very cheesy tactic, but a tactic nonetheless. I feel a bit bad about it.

Erloas, although the army is small for Orks, the bikes make up for it. They are very tough, with 4+ Armor and Cover (and +3 cover with Turbo Boost), and with the nobs, Feel No Pain and +5 Invuln from Cybork Bodies. I make up my lack of numbers with sheer power, and carry Twin-Linked Dakkaguns, Assault 3, 18" range, and an AP and Str of 5. If it doesn't work, I can take out a few bikes and get more boyz.

[Erloas]

Erloas, although the army is small for Orks, the bikes make up for it. They are very tough, with 4+ Armor and Cover (and +3 cover with Turbo Boost), and with the nobs, Feel No Pain and +5 Invuln from Cybork Bodies. I make up my lack of numbers with sheer power, and carry Twin-Linked Dakkaguns, Assault 3, 18" range, and an AP and Str of 5. If it doesn't work, I can take out a few bikes and get more boyz.

Unless the Ork refernce sheet on GWs site is wrong, the Dakkaguns are Assault 2, 18" range, Str 5 and AP4, making them a little better but fewer shots.

Normally I would recommend against single large units that you expect to do everything because a few units are too easy to deal with. Though since that unit is only about 20% of your force and most of your other units are fairly cheap it does put enough out there for the enemy to deal with.

If I remember right they get the cover save from the smoke from the bikes, so with a decent armor save, and a decent cover save is the upgrade for the invulnerable save really all that worth while since you can only take one save reguardless? Since most of the things that negate cover are str4 AP5 (flamers), I wouldn't see that as being too big a deal for them. It mostly depends on how much the upgrade costs, which I don't have any idea of.

Since I had the sheet already from the numbers with the nurgle bikers, just for reference, with the 4+ save (cover or armor), t5, and FNP 12 hits from Str4 will average at 2 unsaved wounds, 1 after FNP. At S6 and the same conditions that goes to 6 hits. They aren't easy to kill, but they will die like everything else. To me knowing what sort of firepower a unit can likely take at what sort of casualies gives me a better feel for what I can do with them.

[Rayzin]

Diffrent codices, he is probably looking at the 4th ed ork codice. The one on GW is the new 5th ed.

[Altima]

Winterwind: Only recommendation on your list is to add more units to your havoc squad. As it is now, after only a single wound, any further casualties will result in you losing heavy weapons.

[Killersquid]

Diffrent codices, he is probably looking at the 4th ed ork codice. The one on GW is the new 5th ed.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...th_Edition.pdf

"The Dakkagun's profile will be changed as follows: Range 18", Str 5, AP 5, Assault 3".

It is an errata change, the new books have it, but still not signifying they are twin-linked (which they are).

Also, the significance of the cybork bodies is in the case you run into things which negate armor and cover saves (Tau with Markerlights, maybe Space Marines).

[Rayzin]

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...th_Edition.pdf
It is an errata change, the new books have it, but still not signifying they are twin-linked (which they are).

Oops .
I had a 4th edition codices and when i checked the reference sheet so i thought it was changed.

[Winterwind]

Winterwind: Only recommendation on your list is to add more units to your havoc squad. As it is now, after only a single wound, any further casualties will result in you losing heavy weapons.

I had been afraid this might be the case; I had hoped that nobody pointing it out in this thread on any occasion when I posted the list meant I was overestimating the danger there.
Of course, further models assigned to the Havoc squad will likely see very little action and contribute little to the battle with their own firepower, which seems undesirable as well, and hopefully the Havocs won't take too much damage in their perpetual cover they will hopefully never be forced to leave. I figure I will just play a few games and, according to how it works out, experiment a bit with the number of Havocs I will need to get from somewhere to fill up the team (about the only way I can think of would be dropping three Plague Marines from one squad, adding the remaining two to the other - brining it to Nurgle's favoured number of 7 - and freeing up 69 points for more Havocs and maybe some equipment).

I'm still wondering about the ideal armament of this TacSquad. I've realized now that giving it some long-range weaponry might not be such a bad idea after all - most of my other Troop Choices will likely want to get close to the enemy, so one Troop Choice that can hang back and defend objectives on my side while still contributing to the battle might be a good idea. On the other hand, this still leaves the vast majority of the squad unable to fire, not to mention the melta would likely be wasted. I'm torn now between leaving the squad as it is (with melta and lascannon), replacing the lascannon with a plasmagun (so the squad can move about while still shooting with all its weapons), replacing the lascannon with a heavy bolter (which fits better with the range profile of the rest of the squad) and leaving the lascannon but replacing the melta with a plasmagun (to further increase the squad's long range potential).

[Zorg]

I'm entering in the upcoming Clash of the Titans tournament at the end of Febuary, so I'd like some reviews of the list I've made.

The conditions are that you must have one more troops choice than any other area (so if you have three elites you must have four troops minimum) and, obviously, be 1500 points from a current codex. Not really an issue as an early draft accidentaly had seven troops choices, but worth mentioning anyways ;)

The missions will be two of Capture and Control, two of Seize Ground, and one of Annihilation. Deployment will be determined randomly before each match.

With that in mind I've assembled a fairly infantry heavy list, and I'll put some more info on my choices after.

Spoiler

Show

HQ:

Captain Sicarius (200pts)


Troops:

Tactical Squad 1 (10 strong): Power sword, flamer, missile launcher (185)
Rhino with extra armour (50)

Tactical squad 2 (10 strong): Power sword, meltagun, lascannon (200)
Razorback with heavy bolters, storm bolter and extra armour (65)

Tactical Squad 3 (10 strong): Power sword, plasma gun, missile launcher (195)
Rhino with extra armour (50)

Tactical squad 4 (5 strong): Power sword, combi-plasma (115)
Razorback with heavy bolters and extra armour (55)

Scout Squad 1 (5 strong): Power sword, shotgun, 3x combat blades (90)


Fast Attack:

Landspeeder Storm: heavy bolter (50)

Landspeeder: Typhoon launcher and heavy bolter (90)


Heavy Support:

Predator Destructor: Heavy bolters (85)

Sgt Chronus (70)

---

The core is obviously a strong infantry block. At the very basic level the army is designed to get to medium range, and hammer the enemy as hard as possible, with lots of mobile fire support as backup.

One thing I've been toying with is removing the lascannon from squad 2, replacing it with a missile launcher as I can make it S9 with Tank Hunters thanks to Sicarius. Then I'm not sure about the other ten points though - melta bombs for squad 4 and the scouts, upgrade a power sword to a power fist?

I'm taking Sicarius because I really like the LD10 for all units, I can give the lascannon squad Tank Hunters, and re-roll to seize initiative. Also he's a death machine in HtH.

Chronus is mostly a bit of fun, but also the pred then hits on 2+ and can ignore stunned and shaken (thus the tank has no extra armour), making it alot more deadly vs light vehicles and horde infantry.


The general tactic is to split squad 2, with the heavy weapon hanging back, and Sicarius rolling with the other five, along with two other tac squads. The remaing tac squad (either 3 or 4), either moves to a flank to shore it up with the pred, or forms a gunline in cover to protect the home objective. The Typhoon is there to hang back and shoot whatever it can until it gets blown up, but hopefully that won't be too soon into the games. The scouts are a bit of a wild card, designed to either outflank and hit support weapons and lightly guarded objectives, or to make a last minute dash as they can move up to 24" a turn, and don't have to disembark to capture now.

Any advice, suggestions and criticism is most welcome :)

[Wraith]

You seem to have a solid, competitive-looking list there, Zorg. At first I was skeptical about having 2 special characters in one (reasonably small) army, but the way you have explained it makes perfect sense - Sgt, Chronus' presence protecting your only (and yet, probably going to be very effective) Heavy Choice is a stroke of genius.

The simplest thing I would suggest is that you swap the equipment around on some of your Tactical Units/Transports to make their threat value more balanced.
For example, at the moment you have Tac. Squad 2 with lots of expensive upgrades - Heavy Bolters on the Rhino and a Lascannon in the squad it comes with, which tome just screams "Shoot this thing and cause more trouble than anything else!". Meanwhile, Tac. Squad 1 has a Flamer that will spend the first 2 turns not doing anything until it comes into range, so it's comparatively safe to ignore while the ones with Heavy Weapons are taken out early. Why not give Squad 1 the Bolters, so it can also make a nuisance of itself while Squad 2's Rhino can be covered by it's Lascannon?

It might just be a cosmetic change, but in a closely fought game it often pays to spread your weapons out, not only because you can then put them in multiple threatening positions (and thus scaring your opponent into having to spread out his own army to counteract them) but because you'll still have big guns left even after one or two of them have been taken out in the first couple of turns. Eggs in baskets, and all that.

Having said that, I think that the most significant advice that I would to offer is that you think long and hard about what you expect from your Scouts. I personally would go down the route of giving them melta-bombs as it's a fairly cheap upgrade that can do great things in the hands of a Scouting unit, and if nothing else they can have a go at blowing up a tank or maybe two before your opponent realises that it's a quite small, comparatively lightly-armoured scoring unit that they can score some quick points from.

It might be because I'm an Eldar Player, and therefore paranoid by nature, but I always worry about units that are described with a phrase like "wild card"
Personal experience tells me that you should never put a unit on the table (and certainly not right beside your enemies' front lines!) and just 'hope for the best'. Have a plan for them and stick to it, or swap them for something that will definitely contribute to your victory!

[Zorg]

The Razorback only has a transport capacity of 6 - so the lascannon squad will split int two units of 5, with the heavy weapon getting to walk (or stand still and shoot more likely) Being an eldar player I'll forgive your lack of knowledge of mankind's wonderous machines If they made ten man transports with heavy weapons.... [/drool] Making me long for the good ol' days when you could stuff five guys in the back of a predator.

As I said I'd been considering giving the scouts melta-bombs, but I'm somewhat torn. The new rear armour rules mean the scout's krak grenades aren't that bad (6+D6 vs AV10 mostly), but it'll be trickier against a landraider. The unit is mostly there as a 'firefighter' squad. They're the most mobile unit in a marine army, and pretty cost effective, but not as tough.

There is the tricky bit of where to get the points for them tho...

[Erloas]

I had been afraid this might be the case; I had hoped that nobody pointing it out in this thread on any occasion when I posted the list meant I was overestimating the danger there.
Of course, further models assigned to the Havoc squad will likely see very little action and contribute little to the battle with their own firepower, which seems undesirable as well, and hopefully the Havocs won't take too much damage in their perpetual cover they will hopefully never be forced to leave.

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about it. It seems any more that the trend in killing MEQ (and most things really) is mass fire and failed saves rather then fewer shots that negate armor, because spending all of those points for a heavy1-2 weapon that is AP2/3 to negate their armor is often wasted when they just get a 4+ cover save instead. Of course that might not be the case in all places. With that being the case and the way wounds are distrubuted now before rolling to save you have to have a lot more "expendable" models in a unit before you are guarenteed to save a heavy weapon, because you never know where those 1s and 2s will show up.
It of course depends on the relative cost of the unit too, if you are spending 5-8 points for more wounds like with non marine armies it isn't so much of an issue as it is when you are spending 15-20 points for a model with the sole purpose of dieing.

I'm still wondering about the ideal armament of this TacSquad. I've realized now that giving it some long-range weaponry might not be such a bad idea after all - most of my other Troop Choices will likely want to get close to the enemy, so one Troop Choice that can hang back and defend objectives on my side while still contributing to the battle might be a good idea. On the other hand, this still leaves the vast majority of the squad unable to fire, not to mention the melta would likely be wasted. I'm torn now between leaving the squad as it is (with melta and lascannon), replacing the lascannon with a plasmagun (so the squad can move about while still shooting with all its weapons), replacing the lascannon with a heavy bolter (which fits better with the range profile of the rest of the squad) and leaving the lascannon but replacing the melta with a plasmagun (to further increase the squad's long range potential).

I don't know the cost options, but I think it often depends on how well the unit will be able to protect itself if something gets close. Say a transport that lives to get close and drops off its CC unit, or a unit deep striking or outflanking, how much firepower does the unit have that would be good in those cases where they need to take out numbers rather then just a few good shots? Would the unit be better served with weapons that can shoot and move so they can put some fire into the enemy and create some range as well. They will likely be back with the Havok squad, so which is likely to be a higher target to someone that gets back there? Are you looking for them to protect the havok squad and throw out a little ranged damage while waiting for someone to show up to kill the havoks, or are you designing them to be another primary ranged high str shooting unit that shots what it can for the first few turns and then dies (or at least gets tied up for most/all of the rest of the game) when something closes with it?

[Ghal Marak]

Well everybody at the shop is wrong Rules on page 73 of the rulebook: it's a power weapon that dobles strength, and there's nothing about initiative order changing.

This is correct. The dreadnought is so huge and powerful that it does not find the weapon (DCCW) to be unwieldy, and retains normal initiative (at 4-ish, I think). I believe it loses initiative or attacks if it's stunned or shaken. Plus the weapon can be destroyed (bringing the strength down by half).

Sweet! Thank you for the help guys!

[Winterwind]

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about it. It seems any more that the trend in killing MEQ (and most things really) is mass fire and failed saves rather then fewer shots that negate armor, because spending all of those points for a heavy1-2 weapon that is AP2/3 to negate their armor is often wasted when they just get a 4+ cover save instead. Of course that might not be the case in all places. With that being the case and the way wounds are distrubuted now before rolling to save you have to have a lot more "expendable" models in a unit before you are guarenteed to save a heavy weapon, because you never know where those 1s and 2s will show up.
It of course depends on the relative cost of the unit too, if you are spending 5-8 points for more wounds like with non marine armies it isn't so much of an issue as it is when you are spending 15-20 points for a model with the sole purpose of dieing.

Yeah, that's just it - I'm wary of using 60 points for four models which, if everything goes well, will be doing squat for four turns until something happens to show up they can shoot at (and probably not even then, as the squad will have better targets), and otherwise have no other purpose but dying - especially if even that is not necessarily going to save the "real" Havocs.

By the way, what exactly does MEQ stand for?

I don't know the cost options, but I think it often depends on how well the unit will be able to protect itself if something gets close. Say a transport that lives to get close and drops off its CC unit, or a unit deep striking or outflanking, how much firepower does the unit have that would be good in those cases where they need to take out numbers rather then just a few good shots? Would the unit be better served with weapons that can shoot and move so they can put some fire into the enemy and create some range as well. They will likely be back with the Havok squad, so which is likely to be a higher target to someone that gets back there? Are you looking for them to protect the havok squad and throw out a little ranged damage while waiting for someone to show up to kill the havoks, or are you designing them to be another primary ranged high str shooting unit that shots what it can for the first few turns and then dies (or at least gets tied up for most/all of the rest of the game) when something closes with it?

Well, I figured the job of protecting the Havocs could be done by a 5-man plague marine squad with a plasmagun - they are one of my cheapest units, durable enough (or so I like to delude myself) to bind whatever comes to assault the Havocs for long enough for reinforcements to arrive, and can shoot at whatever happens to be within 24".

As for the TacSquad... my initial idea was to have them advance with the majority of the army and, while such squads as the berzerkers rush into close combat, provide fire support, shooting whatever needed to be shot, be it heavy vehicles and monstrous creatures or light infantry squads. The hail of fire from the Havocs and Obliterators from behind is nice to have, but between the decidedly non-shooty berzerkers, the highly low-on-number plague marine squads and the completely non-shooty possessed marines, aside the Noise Marine squad there is nothing there that can just point its guns at the enemy and throw a medium-sized bucket of dice at him. The role of the TacSquad is, decidedly, fire support, and they are meant to get close enough to use those guns, too. And as, especially in smaller games, there aren't all that many anti-vehicle units in that army-list aside the Havocs, giving them decent anti-tank weaponry in form of that melta and lascannon seemed a sensible move.

But then you came, with your wisdoms about units designed for clear purposes, capable of using all their points at the same time, and confused me again!
The squad is currently as anti-vehicle as a Chaos Marine squad can possibly get, but it will still spend a lot of its time shooting at infantry, and most of its members still have only normal bolters. Plus, while advancing into a good position for close-range fire support, it won't be able to use its lascannon.
By your philosophies, I should probably replace their weapons with something like two plasmaguns or two heavy bolters and an icon of Chaos Undivided, or something like that - weapons that focus on killing infantry and mesh better with the bolters' range, in the former case while retaining the squad's ability to move, in the latter case useable only when stationary, but more effective at that. Your records of completely eradicating all foes you go up against indicate that not heeding your philosophies would be a very foolhardy move.
But on the other hand, I'm not sure if I don't actually need the anti-vehicle capabilities of that squad in its current form.
Hence, me being torn and absolutely uncertain what to do.

[Justyn]

By the way, what exactly does MEQ stand for

Marine Equivalent, I believe.

[Erloas]

Yep, MEQ is marine equivelent, so just about everything with a 3+ AS, and generally considered low numbers.

Having the plague marines stay back to protect works, especially since at 24" range they can still do something.

If you are expecting the tactic squad to be up front with all of your CC troops I wouldn't even think about heavy weapons. Maybe the heavy bolters if they were staying back to defend the havoks, but not if you want them up front.
Being marines, you don't have to worry so much about killing everything before it gets close, just wear it down enough. The normal bolters and a few assault or rapid fire weapon upgrades is probably enough. I would look at either the plasma or meltas, because while they aren't ideally suited for infantry they do work well (just low numbers) even while on the move, which is the important part being up close. Having a few other specialized anti-infantry units like the beserkers up front means some units do have the option of diversifying some between anti-tank and anti-infantry. It is one thing to waste a round of bolter fire at a vehicle it can't hurt to use the plasmas/meltas, its another to not even plant on using them and putting the unit in a situation where only 1/5 of them is expected to do anything.


I don't want anyone to take what I say as a given, so I try to back up all of my points with enough thought and numbers to have some good backing behind what I say. I'm also bound to loose sooner or later and I know there is a lot of 40k I haven't yet seen. But I do know that paying points for something that doesn't get used never makes much sense. Not to say a few upgrades here and there are bad even if they are situational, but the points put to those sort of things shouldn't be too many of your points overall.

[onasuma]

And therefore, for the sake of reasoning, here is my counter argument.

Im many armies, I agree with squad optimisation, but chaos marines are one of the few where i feel mixed squads can be useful and required.

With CM's you have alot fewer squads to play around with than, lets say, guard, and squads may often need to double up in roll. My personal plague marine squads for example fill out my objective cappers and have the option of being a dab hand in combat when it is called for. When fighting tyranids, I rarely want to assualt but with tau i often find it worth it. This is due to the absense of any other real durable units i can use to tie up a shooty squad in my list.

In warhammer fantasy, squad optimisation is almost compulsory, most units being good at combat or shooting but rarely both (damn dragon mages...), where as most in 40k can do both. Marines easily excel in both areas and it seems foolish to waste that potential.

Granted, there will be times when you dont use that power fist or lascannon, but when you're sitting opposite 12 landraiders, you'll be glad you have it. Generally, I feel the security outweighs the cost of games when its not used.

[Winterwind]

Marine Equivalent, I believe.

Yep, MEQ is marine equivelent, so just about everything with a 3+ AS, and generally considered low numbers.

Thanks.
Thought it might be just that, but wasn't sure if it wasn't some in-universe term I was not familiar with instead.

If you are expecting the tactic squad to be up front with all of your CC troops I wouldn't even think about heavy weapons. Maybe the heavy bolters if they were staying back to defend the havoks, but not if you want them up front.

Well, I don't want them to go into CC (unless it happens to be the right thing to do at some point, of course), but close enough to shoot at stuff with their bolters... and ideally with two shots per bolter, not one.
So, not necessarily up front with the CC troops, but definitely less than 12" behind.

Being marines, you don't have to worry so much about killing everything before it gets close, just wear it down enough. The normal bolters and a few assault or rapid fire weapon upgrades is probably enough. I would look at either the plasma or meltas, because while they aren't ideally suited for infantry they do work well (just low numbers) even while on the move, which is the important part being up close. Having a few other specialized anti-infantry units like the beserkers up front means some units do have the option of diversifying some between anti-tank and anti-infantry. It is one thing to waste a round of bolter fire at a vehicle it can't hurt to use the plasmas/meltas, its another to not even plant on using them and putting the unit in a situation where only 1/5 of them is expected to do anything.

Well, meltas and flamers aside, there are no assault weapons available to Chaos, excluding the sonic weapons of the Noise Marines (which, together with their incredibly versatility, is why they are one of my favourite units already ).
While a melta plus a plasmagun would be my favourite choice, that would free up only 5 points when dropping the lascannon. I'd rather get 10 points, so I could stick an Icon of Chaos Undivided onto that squad (I mean, what is this? I have an army of Chaos Undivided, but no squad actually bearing the sign of that?), so I figure I'll go with two meltas instead. That will, at least, retain a good deal of the squad's anti-vehicle capability.

I don't want anyone to take what I say as a given, so I try to back up all of my points with enough thought and numbers to have some good backing behind what I say. I'm also bound to loose sooner or later and I know there is a lot of 40k I haven't yet seen. But I do know that paying points for something that doesn't get used never makes much sense. Not to say a few upgrades here and there are bad even if they are situational, but the points put to those sort of things shouldn't be too many of your points overall.

Considering all your victories so far seem to not have been just simple victories, but a complete or nigh-complete wipe-out of the enemy army, with your army largely intact, it would seem it is still a long way for you to lose a game.

EDIT:

And therefore, for the sake of reasoning, here is my counter argument.

Im many armies, I agree with squad optimisation, but chaos marines are one of the few where i feel mixed squads can be useful and required.

With CM's you have alot fewer squads to play around with than, lets say, guard, and squads may often need to double up in roll. My personal plague marine squads for example fill out my objective cappers and have the option of being a dab hand in combat when it is called for. When fighting tyranids, I rarely want to assualt but with tau i often find it worth it. This is due to the absense of any other real durable units i can use to tie up a shooty squad in my list.

In warhammer fantasy, squad optimisation is almost compulsory, most units being good at combat or shooting but rarely both (damn dragon mages...), where as most in 40k can do both. Marines easily excel in both areas and it seems foolish to waste that potential.

Granted, there will be times when you dont use that power fist or lascannon, but when you're sitting opposite 12 landraiders, you'll be glad you have it. Generally, I feel the security outweighs the cost of games when its not used.

Oh, great. Now I'm feeling completely conflicted.
Well... that 2 melta solution might, perhaps, be a fair compromise then. Sure, it's purely close-range, but it might just make that guy in the landraider sweat a bit...

[Killersquid]

I actually have a question about models. The bitz pack for the Battlewagon won't be out for a few months, but does anyone know what the Killcannon looks like, and if it replaces the Kannon/Lobba/Zzap Gun spot? Also, what's a good thing to convert into a deffrolla?

[banjo1985]

Defrolla...well the black plastic tubing that toilet roles sit on in the bathroom might be viable if you cut them down in width a fair bit. Then just stick as many spikes as you can on it.

After the limited success I have had using my Chaos army as an assault force, I have been convinced to buy a second army, which happen to be Tyranids, because I think they look good and are quick and relatively easy to paint. I'm hoping it will put the fear of god into the Ork and Tau players I regularly come up against:

HQ
1 Broodlord
8 Genestealer retinue (Scuttlers, Scything Talons, Feeder Tendrils)

Elite
3 Warriors (Extended Carapace, 1 Venom Cannon, 1 Deathspitter, 1 Devourer)

Troop
16 Termagaunts (Flesborers, Without Number)
16 Hormagaunts (Adrenal Glands)
3 Ripper Swarm bases (Spinefists)

Fast Attack
2 Raveners (Scything Talons, Devourers)

Heavy Support
Carnifex (Barbed Strangler, Scything Talons, Adrenal Gland, Scythe Tail, Tusks)
2 Zoanthrope (Warp Field, Warp Blast and Synapse Creature powers)

Misc
1 Biovore

Not sure where to fit the Biovore as I already have the 2 allowed Heavy support choices.

I've tried to set the army list up so that I have a large amount of viscious close combat troops with enough support to give them some covering fire. Other than the Carnifex there's no standout creature for an opponent to go for, so I'm expecting it to take some heavy fire, thus the long range weapon to keep him away from the front line.

I've never played such an assault orientated force before, and have no experience of even playing against Tyranids, so any advice is appreciated.