Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

[Altima]

After the limited success I have had using my Chaos army as an assault force, I have been convinced to buy a second army, which happen to be Tyranids, because I think they look good and are quick and relatively easy to paint. I'm hoping it will put the fear of god into the Ork and Tau players I regularly come up against:

Ork players will never, ever fear Tyranids. Orks can put more (and better) models on the table a lot easier than tyranids. More or less, orks are just plain better than Tyranids. However, there are many ways to screw with them.

HQ
1 Broodlord
8 Genestealer retinue (Scuttlers, Scything Talons, Feeder Tendrils)

Put the feeder tendrils on the broodlord (cheaper to do it that way). Forget scuttlers, too--it may or may not affect the broodlord. You'll want to outflank anyway. Just remember that the broodlord cannot fleet (which is why he sucked in 4th). Consider a hive tyrant--they are, far and away, the best buy for a tyranid list.

Three types of hive tyrant configurations: flying dakka tyrant (2xTL-devs, 12 twin linked living ammo S5 shots at BS4), flying CC monster (not as effective as the last edition with the combat moves, but implant attack+high strength+MC status will leave many a character and tank dead), and walking CC monster (what's worse than a monstrous creature with four wounds? A monstrous creature with TEN wounds--abuse that run rule with a full tyrant guard retinue).

Elite
3 Warriors (Extended Carapace, 1 Venom Cannon, 1 Deathspitter, 1 Devourer)

Warriors require two weapons each--usually a ranged weapon and a pair of scything talons or rending claws. If you go ranged, odds are you'll want deathspitters+barbed strangler (no need to purchase ES upgrade). Other than that, consider the CC option--with the run option (and leaping), a warrior can get into CC on turn three--giving them EC, two ST, more strength, and you can smack them hard. Give them bio-plasma, and your warriors can actually take out light vehicles.

Troop
16 Termagaunts (Flesborers, Without Number)
16 Hormagaunts (Adrenal Glands)
3 Ripper Swarm bases (Spinefists)

Need more troops. Preferably some genestealers (gotta love scuttlers and outflank). Hormagaunts are, more or less, a waste of points. They're good against GEQs, but, then again, so are spinegaunts. Look at it this way--would you rather have 16 naked hormagaunts or 32 spinegaunts? I think you know the correct choice.

If you do use them, there are two schools of thoughts for them--either give them both WS and I upgrades (allowing them to strike before marines) or give them a strangth upgrade (allowing them to hit harder against slower opponents).

You need at least 3 rippers before they start becoming good. They're alright, but more gaunts is usually better (rippers can't hold objectives, take double damage from template weapons, can be instant killed...).

Fast Attack
2 Raveners (Scything Talons, Devourers)

Lose the gun. If raveners are close enough to shoot devourers, they're close enough to fleet and 12" assault.

Heavy Support
Carnifex (Barbed Strangler, Scything Talons, Adrenal Gland, Scythe Tail, Tusks)
2 Zoanthrope (Warp Field, Warp Blast and Synapse Creature powers)

It's okay. You need the S upgrade to get the most out of scything tail. Unfortunately, Carnies are usually walking targets. Get the wound upgrade for more survivability. As the only MC on the board, expect him to suck and die--fast.

Misc
1 Biovore

Not sure where to fit the Biovore as I already have the 2 allowed Heavy support choices.

Biovores suck. Secondly, zoanthropes only take a single heavy support slot (you can't have more than 3 zoanthropes in an army, either).

I've tried to set the army list up so that I have a large amount of viscious close combat troops with enough support to give them some covering fire. Other than the Carnifex there's no standout creature for an opponent to go for, so I'm expecting it to take some heavy fire, thus the long range weapon to keep him away from the front line.

I've never played such an assault orientated force before, and have no experience of even playing against Tyranids, so any advice is appreciated.

Erm, you're giving your carnifex assault upgrades when you mean to keep him away from the lines? If that's the case, drop the assault upgrades, throw a venom cannon on him, and give him the wound and ES upgrade and a venom cannon.

Tyranids took a hit from the recent edition. In particular, our assault capabilities have kinda hit the crapper. Use to be, if a tyranid assault line reached someone's gun line (and make no mistake, something like 80% of your matches will be gunline battles), the game was practically over.

Generally, what tyranids do now is either full assault or full shooty. Full assault lists will see winged hive tyrants, outflanking genestealers, charging elite ninjafexes (2xScytals, AG-WS, and something else, I think), running uberfexes, running warriors/raveners, all with a solid core of disposable gaunts.

Shooty lists are fun, too. Devilfexes (2xTL-devs, ES) will eat up many a squad with 8 S6 twin linked living ammo shots--and they can be elite 'fexes, too. There are gun-fexes (BS+VC). Dakka-tyrants (2xTL-devs). Tons of spine and termagaunts (S4 living ammo makes them as good, point for point, as with marines--and marines will run out of models before you do).

[banjo1985]

Thanks for the advice. My Warriors all have Scything Claws with their ranged weapons, as Synapse creatures they'll have to end up somewhere near the front to stop the cannon fodder from going feral.

More troops are definitely needed I guess, I'm favouring some Genestealers and more Termagaunts, this time possibly with Devourers.

On Hive Tyrants - I was trying to cut down as much as possible on big creatures shooty armies like Tau and Space Marines could blow to bits easily. I do like them though, but I thought a Broodlord with 8 expendable troops around him was a better choice.

No guns on the Raveners would save 12 points, which is another two Termagaunts I guess. If I use the Raveners properly (i.e. assault a unit, cripple them, then wipe them out in the opponents assault phase ready to assault again) they won't need guns.

Quite honestly, I only inculde the Carnifex for the Barbed Strangler, it's the only creature in that list that can really use one effectively. I guess I should have focussed it all shooty or all claws, but to be honest I liked the way the model looked with that combination of weaponry. There's nothing to stop me setting the Carnfiex up differently I suppose, I don't play with the kind of people that would take issue with this really.

[Altima]

Because of the new template weapon rules, all tyranids can use a barbed strangler effectively.

A six-strong warrior squad with deathspitters, strength upgrade, and a barbed stranger (relatively kitted out for CC) is a horror among the game, and will decimate anything without a 2+ save.

Devourers on gaunts is a very, very bad thing. Waste of points, more or less.

Tau will be relatively easy to win against. They get the shaft even more in this edition than we did (arguably). Expect to see stealth suits with burst cannons that will shred your gaunts, annoying battle suits (probably with smart missiles), gunlining firewarriors (possibly with devilfishes in order to perform Fish of Fury and bring in more cannons and missiles), and, of course, the hammerhead with that god-awful railgun and its submunitions.

Best way to deal with Tau? Gaunt-wrapping (wrapping two gaunt squads in such a way as they all get 4+ cover saves due to LOS blocking) and out-flanking genestealers. A tau player will wet themselves when an unshaken genie squad pops out at their table edge and assaults them. It will really make them think twice about split-deploying next game. Lastly, it's really, really fun to watch a single barbed strangler shot (from a carnie) land on a broadside or battlesuit squadron and wipe it out. Instant death rocks!

Also, if you really want to get away from the monstrous creatures, take a bunch of warriors. You can get three elite slots of 'em and up to two HQ slots of them (I miss heavy support warrior squads...). However, MC are really good--one, they can take a lot of punishment. Two, they can dish out some punishment. Three, they're the only reliable way to truly take out vehicles anymore (in close combat). That -2 to vehicle damage from the VC will really grind on your nerves after a while. Four, they can take a lot of punishment.

[banjo1985]

Because of the new template weapon rules, all tyranids can use a barbed strangler effectively.

A six-strong warrior squad with deathspitters, strength upgrade, and a barbed stranger (relatively kitted out for CC) is a horror among the game, and will decimate anything without a 2+ save.

I guess from the pure amount of attacks rolled? A good squad to rip Ork Boyz to shreds I guess.

Tau will be relatively easy to win against. They get the shaft even more in this edition than we did (arguably).

I'm very inexperienced with Tyranids, and indeed recent Warhammer stuff in it's entirety. What exactly has happened that has ballsed up the Tyranids compared to previous editions? Is it getting rid of node creatures, so that your gaunts have to rely on backup from synapse creatures? I've heard the new edition makes Tyranids more agile as a whole, as well as making leader creatures immune to instant death, which should be a big plus?

Lastly, it's really, really fun to watch a single barbed strangler shot (from a carnie) land on a broadside or battlesuit squadron and wipe it out. Instant death rocks!

This I like the sound of. Broadside Battle Suits are horrific things, what with being able to shoot from behind blocking terrain and all. The guy I play against has three of the buggers.

Also, if you really want to get away from the monstrous creatures, take a bunch of warriors. You can get three elite slots of 'em and up to two HQ slots of them (I miss heavy support warrior squads...). However, MC are really good--one, they can take a lot of punishment. Two, they can dish out some punishment. Three, they're the only reliable way to truly take out vehicles anymore (in close combat). That -2 to vehicle damage from the VC will really grind on your nerves after a while. Four, they can take a lot of punishment.

I appreciate the taking punishment arguement. Fortunately, to my knowledge the Tau player has no vehicles whatsoever, and the Space Marine/Ork player just has a single Wartrukk (or whatever the new big beefy thing is), so at the moment it's not much to worry about. I wouldn't want to use the 'Nids against my own Chaos army though, 2 Rhino's a Predator and a Vindicator would be rather harder to combat.

[Erloas]

What hurt the tyrnids, and other CC oriented armies is the fact that you can no longer consolidate into a new combat. It used to be if a unit got into the gunline they could wipe out a unit and usually consolidate into the next, killing 2 units a turn (one on their turn, one on the opponents turn) and they could never be shot at. Since you can't consolidate into combat any more you can only ever kill 1 unit a turn and if you wipe that unit out in your turn then that unit is sitting in the middle of the enemy lines with all of their guns around it, meaning it will be shot to pieces in your opponents turn before you get to do anything with them again.

[banjo1985]

Oh right, well that kind of explains things then. So the best course of action with CC heavy forces is to assault a unit and not wipe it out, so that the unit can't be fired at during the opponents round. You can then mop them up in their own combat phase and move on to the next target in your own turn. Still seems quite effective though.

[JMobius]

Generic Space Marines question: Just how worthwhile are space marine bikes?

I find myself infatuated with them, for some reason; I've yet to actually play a game employing them, but on paper, they seem quite impressive, particularly those fantastic assault bikes... needless to say, a mounted assault army list seems quite tempting. I'm just worried if they're a trap of some kind.

[Winterwind]

What do you think of the practice of mixing different Chaos Gods and their respective special troops (such as berzerkers, plague marines etc.) within one army?
There are no restrictions whatsoever regarding that in the current Chaos Marine codex (which, I assume, is meant as compensation for dropping all the daemons), and as Chaos Undivided armies such as the Black Legion are consistently depicted as fielding all kinds of troops, including the special ones, I figured that was alright - not only with regards to rules, but also with regards to fluff, as a mighty Lord, devoted to all four gods alike, might gather followers of all four Dark Brethren under his command.

But yesterday, skimming through some German WH40k forum, I found out there are apparently quite a few people who seem to believe using special troops outside of cult armies (such as the World Eaters or the Death Guard) is very poor taste, and even considering to mix those of different gods together is such a cardinal sin that people who do that should be burnt on a stake, and most definitely never played with.
Are those just some ultra-hardcore-orthodox lunatics who thrive on the Internet as they couldn't survive in real life, whom I can safely dismiss, or is it me who is misinterpreting the fluff here and mixing the troops of different gods really is kicking the fluff as it lies whimpering on the ground, as they say?

Generic Space Marines question: Just how worthwhile are space marine bikes?

I find myself infatuated with them, for some reason; I've yet to actually play a game employing them, but on paper, they seem quite impressive, particularly those fantastic assault bikes... needless to say, a mounted assault army list seems quite tempting. I'm just worried if they're a trap of some kind.

Well, I had a quite similar question in the previous thread regarding Chaos bikes with Nurgle icon, which, I assume, will have somewhat similar properties - the general advice was that, while they can be used to great effect, one has to be careful with them, as they tie up a huge amount of points with comparatively few wounds, and still can engage only one enemy unit per round. So, probably worthwhile, but not in too big units, and not in too small games.

[Tren]

Are those just some ultra-hardcore-orthodox lunatics who thrive on the Internet as they couldn't survive in real life, whom I can safely dismiss, or is it me who is misinterpreting the fluff here and mixing the troops of different gods really is kicking the fluff as it lies whimpering on the ground, as they say?

Ultra-fluffies like that exist for all armies and will always throw a fit (particularly about special characters), but as more "true" 5th edition codexes come out those kind of people don't have much of a foot to stand. The trend since the Eldar codex has been to remove limitations on special characters and units to essentially allow you to build whatever kind of army you want regardless of fluff. That's just the way the game is changing.

Besides, ultra-fluffies like that tend to be most prominent on the intartubes. If at your FLGS you meet someone who doesn't want to play against a legitimate list then to hell with them, I'm sure there'll be plenty of other people who have no problem.

[hamishspence]

you know, for at least one army (Black Legion) mixing units is standard.

a World Eaters army backed up by a Slaaneshi sorcerer would be Unusual, but I was never fond of the absolute hatred between deities anyway.

Daemons has trimmed it back to a minimum, so CSM players shouldn't moan if they see a mixed army.

Putting a character or HQ in a squad of a rival power is the only really extreme act of ignoring the rivalry completely- anything short of that is ok in my book and I've been a 40k fan since 2nd ed.

Kharn the Betrayer included in with a squad of Noise Marines would be an example. And you could use the excuse "he's joined the army so when he kills his buddies in frenzy, its more fun"

[Erloas]

GW has been dropping special limitations like that all over the place. They were originally done for "themed" reasons, but what really ended up happening is that players would only ever take the best theme and never use the rest, so there were a lot of good units that people wanted to use but never would because the other limitations to using them were too great.

The Vampire Counts was a good example, because with the bloodlines people only played Carstein or Blood dragon lists, and while the Lhamian and Strigori vampires were very cool and interesting they did have a few shortcomings which ment no one ever used them.

They decided it is better if people can use what they find interesting and still field a competative list then to keep it fluffy and only ever see 1-2 variations of an army. It leads to a greater diversity of lists which is more interesting and fun for both parties at the table.

Most of the "real" players I run into don't necessarily like the reduction in theme but don't really have a problem with it either. Usually what they don't like is that some combination or special ability they used to live by is no longer there or no longer as practical.

The one thing that is kind of ironic about chaos gods' most devout followers (players) is that they think things should be very orderly and set rules to how chaos is. If anything, I think a chaotic Chaos list is actually more fitting. Sure there is conflict between the various parts of chaos, but that is true of every race, but in the end it always comes down to the Ork's way of doing things (no matter which race you are), the biggest and strongest tell you want to do and you do it or you get clobbered. The way an Ork builds his Waaagh! from different competing Ork tribes isn't really any different then the other races, especially Chaos.

[hamishspence]

a horde of Daemonettes led by a Bloodthirster- again, odd combo. Still, I don't find it as objectionable as some seem to.

[Winterwind]

Okay, thanks. Me and my conscience are relieved now.

[Altima]

a horde of Daemonettes led by a Bloodthirster- again, odd combo. Still, I don't find it as objectionable as some seem to.

Daemons are different than their mortal followers. There's even a rule in the Daemons codex that characters (such as heralds) cannot join units who have a different Mark of Chaos as they do.

But, really, why wouldn't you want your bloodthirster riding herd with bloodcrushers or bloodletters? And really, what's funniest of all, is that a Keeper of Secrets can take a Bloodthirster in combat. It's awesome.

But yeah, the old cult armies were great, and extremely fluffy. Many chaos players don't like the fact that they took them out. Heck, it was one of the few armies that were mechanically rewarded by being fluffy. An example would be if you had a cult squad of the god's favorite 'number' you automatically received a free champion!

But yeah, feel free to have different types of Chaos warriors in an army. A Chaos Undivided army (Black Legion, Word Bearers) sees Chaos (and not just the four gods) as a pantheon, instead of one god above them all.

Another example would be the World Eaters--they were devastated long ago and now only exist as roving warbands who'll happily join with anyone for the right price.

I wouldn't talk down to people who are fluffy. You can be sure that a game against them will be fun, and not just a beat down of the most efficient/cheesey units someone can jam into their lists.

[Winterwind]

But yeah, the old cult armies were great, and extremely fluffy. Many chaos players don't like the fact that they took them out. Heck, it was one of the few armies that were mechanically rewarded by being fluffy. An example would be if you had a cult squad of the god's favorite 'number' you automatically received a free champion!

Well, I am trying to make my army fluffy - almost all of my squads are in their god's favourite number (and not limited to cult squads, but also including all squads which have icons), the army leader is deliberately kept without mark (to be a proper Chaos Undivided commander), and one of the squads (namely, the Tzeentch Raptors) has its icon rather so all four of the gods are represented in the army than because it would be effective (except, of course, that it allows the squad to be properly big - with any other icon, I would have taken a smaller number).
But it never occured to me that combining cult troops within the same army might be considered unfluffy, if that army was explicitly themed to be Chaos Undivided.

But yeah, feel free to have different types of Chaos warriors in an army. A Chaos Undivided army (Black Legion, Word Bearers) sees Chaos (and not just the four gods) as a pantheon, instead of one god above them all.

Another example would be the World Eaters--they were devastated long ago and now only exist as roving warbands who'll happily join with anyone for the right price.

And, of course, it would also be fine to declare one's army a splinter group of any of the big ones or any other such thing to come up with own fluff, colour themes, symbols etc., correct?

I wouldn't talk down to people who are fluffy. You can be sure that a game against them will be fun, and not just a beat down of the most efficient/cheesey units someone can jam into their lists.

Oh, I wouldn't dream of such a thing - contrariwise - but there's a difference between being fluffy and being intolerant of all who do not heed their subjective interpretation of the fluff in every detail.

[First Speaker]

a horde of Daemonettes led by a Bloodthirster- again, odd combo. Still, I don't find it as objectionable as some seem to.

Daemonette cult who have enslaved and tortured a Bloodthirster for kicks, done unspeakable things to it, and drag their prize from battle to battle as a sick trophy?

[Tren]

I wouldn't talk down to people who are fluffy. You can be sure that a game against them will be fun, and not just a beat down of the most efficient/cheesey units someone can jam into their lists.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that people who run fluffy armies are bad people or inferior gamers. But I've had it suggested to me by an overly fluff concerned player that because I wanted to convert a Prince Yriel model to be the supreme autarch of my Sword Wind army, that I am a scum-sucking degenerate not fit to play the game and that I am in fact ruining the game because Prince Yriel would never be in a Biel Tan army. Delightful. That's just plain not cool, and unfortunately it's a attitude I see a lot of online. There are very vocal people who disparage and insult other people who want to play this competitive game like it were-- ya know-- a competitive game.

And I'm not saying power gamers can't be douche bags too, but for my part the majority of this kind of behavior I see coming from people who're so obsessed with fluff they forgot it was a game, or think because they play an unoptimized/fluffy list they've got some moral high ground. I absolutely respect someone who wants to put together a very fluffy army and create one of their favorite forces from the codex/books/etc. and I understand why it's fun for certain types of gamer. But I think it's immature and annoying when you complain that your unoptomized fluff driven army gets run into the ground by someone who punches in fields an army with the goal of winning.

[evil_d4_swarm]

Hello again. I think I may have put together a solid list by now... Is it any good?

Spoiler

Show

I'm going to be buying another $50 worth of models soon, so I need to know what to get.

Thanks.

[Winterwind]

Hello again. I think I may have put together a solid list by now... Is it any good?

Spoiler

Show

I'm going to be buying another $50 worth of models soon, so I need to know what to get.

Thanks.

Not being familiar with Tau, I see some error in that list. You have assigned 12 Kroot Hounds to one squad and 6 Kroot Hounds to another, with identical equipment, yet pay 36 points in both cases. Unless the Tau have some freakin' weird special rules, that can't possibly be right.
(Wow, Kroot Hounds are cheap... )

Otherwise... going by the stats for models and weapons given in the main rulebook alone, that's a list that instills fear in my heart, far more than the previous incarnations of your army.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I pretty new, but it seems like you have quite the lack of Crysis suits. A couple of HQ sure, but I always thought alot of the power in a tau army came from the versatile battlesuits? I would personally drop a hammerhead and get a squad of suits in there. Either as an attachment to one of your shash'o or as an Elite unit in itself.

Also, I have never really thought of the Cyclic Ion Blaster as worth it. 5 shots sure, but with str 3 you will need typically need a 5 or better to wound (unless you are fighting Eldar or other tau). A Burst cannon offers 3 shots but typically wounds on a 3+. And with a shash'o you hit on a 2+, so you don't have to worry about having a hail of bullets to hit. Only 8 points too. Better imo.

1 more thing, I noticed that both of your Shash'o have weapons with a 18" range. And only 18". Is this wise? Battlesuits are pretty fragile, and keeping at range with missile pods and such is a definite advantage.

[Erloas]

One thing that always seemed odd to me about "fluffy armies" is that being effective is often considered unfluffy and being one dimensional is often considered fluffy.
The thing about fluff is that it is supposed to be realistic in terms of the race and the setting. The one thing we know about all real armies throughtout history is that whenever possible they tried to be the most effecient they could be and to the best of their ability had what was needed to win. If an army didn't have the siege equipment to take a castle they would either wait until they could get it or make it or they would simply not try to take the castle.
If an army needed calvarly to win and they didn't have any they would avoid contact as long as possible until their calvarly came back (if it were out on some other errand) or do the best they could to change the field of combat so it wasn't as big of a deal.

If a current army general was faced with a situation where an airstrike would be considerably more effective and safer then sending in some infantry and tanks they would get ahold of the airforce and get things worked out. They wouldn't just send in their infantry because they are the army and not the airforce.

Given the nature of 40k I wouldn't see the various races sending out raiding parties and attack forces to various conflicts when those forces are missing units that would be vital their chances of success. Especially for a race such as the Eldar who are supposed to have divination type skills and are a dying race and have to make everything loss they take count. It those conditions it wouldn't make any sense for a farseer to engage the enemy when they are missing components that are vital to their chances of victory. Sure one craftworld might specialize in some aspect of the army, but there isn't anything saying any other units of the army is never to be found there.


What I find the oddest about fluffy lists is in many ways they are also the easiest to make cheesy. Not sure as much about 40k, but in fantasy generally what I consider cheesy is someone taking many of the same units and generally build their army so it ignores every aspect of the army except one very specific one. A skaven army that takes nothing but jezzels and ratling guns, an empire army that takes nothing but handgunners and cannons, a bretonnian army that takes as many pegasus as possible and O&G army that takes as many fantatics as possible, a vampire or tzeentch army that has 23 power dice in 2000 points, etc. They can be of varying degrees of effectiveness, but at least as far as I see it they are cheesy, and generally not that fun to play against if you win or loose. But they are also some of the easiest armies to write a backstory for. Like "My empire army comes from hauchland where they specialize and manufacturer rifles for the rest of the empire" or "My O&G army is a night goblin waaagh" They are easy to come up with a story because they are all the same. They do tend to ignore the fact that no empire general would go to war without some of the various state troopers and there are knightly orders all over the empire, or that bretonnian generals wouldn't take all of a limited resource such as pegasuses and put them all in one spot at one time and deprive other parts of their realm from the utility and protection the pegasuses bring. In most cases a highly themed and generally one dimensional army doesn't make any sense in terms of military logistics, resource management, and preparidness for war.

I find its actually harder to write a good theme and background for a well balanced and diversified amy even though militarily speaking it makes a lot more sense.


edit:

Also, I have never really thought of the Cyclic Ion Blaster as worth it. 5 shots sure, but with str 3 you will need typically need a 5 or better to wound (unless you are fighting Eldar or other tau). A Burst cannon offers 3 shots but typically wounds on a 3+. And with a shash'o you hit on a 2+, so you don't have to worry about having a hail of bullets to hit. Only 8 points too. Better imo.

The cyclic ion blaster though is AP1 on a 6 to wound. On average that means 69.4% of the time you will have an AP1 shot that wounds anything up to T6. You will also have a 69.4% chance of a normal AP of the weapon on a T4 enemy. (I don't have the stats to the cyclic ion cannon, its missing from the tau reference sheet, the AP1 part is in the FAQ though) With the burst cannon being AP5 that means most armies are going to get a save against it. You average 2.5 hits a turn even at BS5, against T4 that is 1.6 wounds and against 3+ save thats .54 unsaved wounds. So against MEQ the burst cannon averages .54 unsaved wounds a round and the cyclic ion blaster averages .925 unsaved wounds (.694 unsavable and .231 failed save). So the cyclic ion blaster actually comes out ahead.
Edit again: for the sake of completeness. Against T3 the burst cannon does 2.08 AP5 wounds, the Cyclic Ion Blaster also happens to do 2.08 wounds (again don't know the AP, though .64 is still the chance of being AP1)

[evil_d4_swarm]

Not being familiar with Tau, I see some error in that list. You have assigned 12 Kroot Hounds to one squad and 6 Kroot Hounds to another, with identical equipment, yet pay 36 points in both cases. Unless the Tau have some freakin' weird special rules, that can't possibly be right.
(Wow, Kroot Hounds are cheap... )

Otherwise... going by the stats for models and weapons given in the main rulebook alone, that's a list that instills fear in my heart, far more than the previous incarnations of your army.

Oops. That should be 6 to a squad...

I pretty new, but it seems like you have quite the lack of Crysis suits. A couple of HQ sure, but I always thought alot of the power in a tau army came from the versatile battlesuits? I would personally drop a hammerhead and get a squad of suits in there. Either as an attachment to one of your shash'o or as an Elite unit in itself.

Also, I have never really thought of the Cyclic Ion Blaster as worth it. 5 shots sure, but with str 3 you will need typically need a 5 or better to wound (unless you are fighting Eldar or other tau). A Burst cannon offers 3 shots but typically wounds on a 3+. And with a shash'o you hit on a 2+, so you don't have to worry about having a hail of bullets to hit. Only 8 points too. Better imo.

1 more thing, I noticed that both of your Shash'o have weapons with a 18" range. And only 18". Is this wise? Battlesuits are pretty fragile, and keeping at range with missile pods and such is a definite advantage.

I could drop a hammerhead for a couple Crisis suits, but that would mean spending an extra $75 plus tax. I only have $50, and I have two hammerheads to begin with. One of the hammerheads can be converted to a Sky Ray, though, if that is smarter.

[Altima]

-snip-

Well, it's not out of the question for an Undivided force to be led by a warlord who has chosen a patron. And yes, Chaos has been splintered so many times, and has gotten so many new recruits, that it's not out of the question for there to be all kinds of splinters.

After all, those Daemons armies have to be summoned from somewhere.

As for fluff vs. powergamer, well, there's always different interpretations. GW has retconned, rewritten, or torn up the fluff so many times that it's not out of the question for there to be some minor differences between Imperial Forces.

However, finding reasons to shove 20+ assault cannons (in last edition) in your list, finding a way to include Tigirius and Vulkan in your list at the same time, or a Chapter Master leading every combat patrol is not very fluffy...

I suppose I'm just cynical now. I rarely had any 'fun' games, and when I wasn't facing gunliners, I was being greeted to every sort of cheese army from three editions. Ever fought Iron Warriors last edition? NOT FUN.

Annnnnyway, for the Tau player, I've never found Kroot to be worth it for the Tau. Sure, they're better in close combat than fire warriors (which means they're about as good as any other army's basic trooper). It might be better to get rid of both kroot squads, get another fire warrior squad, then get some devilfish. You've got the burst cannons to deal with hordes (and your standard weapons, of course, along with the Fish of Fury) and you've got the railguns to deal with vehicles, but you seem a tad weak in the middle area. I recommend caning your broadsides and going with twin-linked missile pod/flamer or targeting array XV8 suits. They'll shut down transports quickly, they're cheap, and you can get something like five of them for your 3 broadsides. The flamers can also be used to bolster fire against fast troops who may about to charge your lines.

[Ash08]

I've been experimenting with a few varations of army lists but haven't found anyones I like so far(every single one of them depend HEAVLY on a sinlge 10 member tactical squad in a drop pod). I'll post my entire force and any help with getting things switched around would be nice... Also, although all the models I have are slightly unchangable, I play with a group that is totally cool with bizarre repersentations(one time the Tau player used a squad of Kasirkin as Vespids ). I play mainly against Tau, Tyranids, and Orks in 1,000-2,000 point battles... Thanks in advance!
so here it is:

HQ:
.Captain Alasarius with a combi plasma, artificer armor, hellfire rounds145P
.Chaplain with Jump pack and bolt pistol 120
.Librarian with terminator armor, force weapon, combi plasma 135
Elites:
.5 terminators with an Assault cannon, and 3 chain fists 240
.5 terminators with a cyclone missle launchers 235
.Dreadnought with lascannon, heavyflamer 145
.Dreadnought with multimelta, storm bolter 115
Troops:
.10 member tactical squad with sarg(powerfist, plama pistol) a meltagun and a missle launcher 215 .Drop Pod with DeathWind Launcher 45
.10 member tactical squad with flamer and missle launcher 170
. 5 scouts(3 snipers, one missle launcher, all camo cloaks) 100
.5 scouts, 2 shotguns, 1 bolter, one combat blad/pistol, 1 heavy bolter 85
Various Transports:
.Rhino with storm bolter and extra armor 45
.Razorback with lascannons and hunter-killer missle launcher 85
Fast attack:
.5 member assault squad with 1 flamer, 1 plasma pistol, sarg(power axe and combat shield with bolt pistol 145
.5 vangaurd veterans with relic blade, 2 plasma pistols, 2 power swords and 5 jump packs 245
Heavy Support:
. 8Devastators with 2 lascannons and 2 plasma cannons, a sarg with a plasma pistol and 3 meatshields 225
.8 devastators with 4 heavy bolters, sarg with powerfist, plasma pistol, 3 meatshields 138
Land Raider with 2 a hunter-killer missle 260
Predator with autocannon, 2 lascannons and storm bolter 135
so ends my 3,000+ total

[Myatar_Panwar]

I could drop a hammerhead for a couple Crisis suits, but that would mean spending an extra $75 plus tax. I only have $50, and I have two hammerheads to begin with. One of the hammerheads can be converted to a Sky Ray, though, if that is smarter.

Well, unless you are really committed to paying full price, there are alternatives. For instance, TheWarStore has all GW products for 20% off all the time. There is also MiniWarGaming which sells stuff for 10% off (also is quite a bit easier to use, you have to go through mail/phone order on the warstore). Also, there is always eBay. I just got a Battlesuit Commander, an Ethereal, and a normal Crysis suit for 40 bucks off of eBay (from GW it would be what, 75 bucks?).

Also, if I'm not mistaken, 3 crysis suits would be 60, unless its more expensive where you live for some reason.


And I retract my statement about the Ion Blasters suck. Erloas is right. In general, it is better. I guess I'm just against it because most of the people I play against around here are Orks and Nids.

[Erloas]

As for fluff vs. powergamer, well, there's always different interpretations. GW has retconned, rewritten, or torn up the fluff so many times that it's not out of the question for there to be some minor differences between Imperial Forces.

However, finding reasons to shove 20+ assault cannons (in last edition) in your list, finding a way to include Tigirius and Vulkan in your list at the same time, or a Chapter Master leading every combat patrol is not very fluffy...

Well the question of what is powergaming compared to what is effective seems to vary greatly from person to person. But for me I would agree that your examples are cheesy based on my definition of someone trying to make their army as overwhelmingly stacked into one idea/unit as possible. I haven't faced anything bad in 40k yet, but thats just from not playing it much, and given the type of players locally I probably won't face that sort of thing much.

The biggest thing about the one dimensional armies is that you either have what you need to beat them then its usually easy to beat them and no fun because its one sides for you, or you don't have what you need to beat them and its no fun because its entirely one sided for them.

Of course to some people even if it doesn't fit GW written fluff, so long as the person comes up with a back-story for the army they consider it fluffy. Then you just have to claim your army comes from a planet with an autocannon manufacturing plant and they are delievering the autocannons along with troop movement and then they get stranded on some planet or forced into a conflict and all they have for weapons is autocannons and maybe a few other things they were transporting. To some people that would be a more fluffy army then a well rounded and balanced force that someone didn't have a story for. Which is what I don't like about some "fluff" requirements for armies in things like tournements.

Of course with some armies like Chaos, that sort of thing is what people expect for a fluffy army. I'm not quite sure how things worked in 40k chaos before, but with fantasy having an "all of one god" army tended to be very one dimensional and cheesy. It was those khorne lists where everything had the mark of khorne which gave frenzy (extra attacks and immune to psychology) and magic resistance and extra dispel dice that were cheezy and very fluffy. Or change to tzeentch and its the same thing except everything can cast magic and you have more power dice then anyone can hope to stop.
In those cases having a fluffy list also lead to having a cheesy list.

So long as the enemy has a diversity of units I generally have no problem with the list in terms of being cheesy even if I can't beat it.

Annnnnyway, for the Tau player, I've never found Kroot to be worth it for the Tau. Sure, they're better in close combat than fire warriors (which means they're about as good as any other army's basic trooper).

Isn't the point of kroot that they are a cheap unit that tau use to throw infront of the enemy to slow them down for another round or two of shooting? If you take the two units and move them up as close as you can to the enemy you can slow them a fair amount. If you can get within a few inches and then get charged they move a few inches into the kroot and at best consolidate an extra 3 inches forward, as opposed to their normal movement and run which would be 9-10inches forward instead. With a round of rapid fire they should do a bit of damage too. It also tends to break up their line by having some units getting farther ahead and the unit stuck in combat getting back a bit farther, giving you more time to concentrate on fewer units. Or if you can get the assault and have a reasonable chance of surviving the first round to tie them down at least into their turn, same effect but slows them down a bit more. If they can happen to kill a few in that time then all the better.

Although at 106 points for the unit compared to 110-140 points for the units they are protecting they are probably a bit expensive for that task. If the aformentioned is the task they are given though I think they could do it just as well without the hounds which between both sets of hounds would give another unit of 10.


As for the list... why do you have the pulse carbine unit in the transport? (assuming this reference sheet isn't in need of a errata as well...) Being 18" range and assault they should be able to shoot someone in most games on the first turn (spearhead or DoW deployments at least, or pitched battle if their are scouts or infiltrators that didn't outflank). Also being assualt they can keep up full rate of fire even while moving to whatever location they want to be at.
The pulse rifles however are much better at close range, the sort of time when you drop them out of the transport, let them open fire, then load back up and move. They would also be better at holding an objective in a building or cover because it will slow down most things trying to get to them enough that they get at least 1, maybe 2 rounds of rapid fire before they are engaged.

Of course there might be something I'm missing since I don't know tau very well, such as some special rule(s). Given the basic information about their weapon choices though thats what I see.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The biggest thing about the one dimensional armies is that you either have what you need to beat them then its usually easy to beat them and no fun because its one sides for you, or you don't have what you need to beat them and its no fun because its entirely one sided for them.

This is very true; fortunately people generally don't field such armies because they almost always fail against a decently diversified force.

As for 40K Chaos: it was in fact common, back in 2nd Edition, for Chaos to field armies under one God only. The idea is that you have Traitor Legions devoted to individual gods, and so they are the ones who come out and kill things. At the time "Chaos Undivided" didn't exist IIRC.

Now, you kids haven't seen a really beardy 40K army because the army list requirements that started in 3rd made it impossible to field the worst kind of cheese. Back in 2nd you'd have Eldar Armies made up entirely of Aspect Warriors and Space Marines which were nothing but Land Raiders. Those were crazy! Now, the "fluff" aspect of army building is hard-coded into the rules: you have to field "troops" and Elite units are rare.

IIRC, Chaos players are the most fluff-crazy in 40K; Ork players are the most generally crazy. Among Eldar players you occasionally have folks trying to field Craftworld Armies which are fluffy - though I've yet to see a Saim-Haim army that made a lick of sense - but the most fluff I've seen out of IG, SM, or Tau is in paint scheme. I mean, how many Tau do you see that actually field Ethereals, even though those guys are supposed to be running things?

[Killersquid]

Well, unless you are really committed to paying full price, there are alternatives. For instance, TheWarStore has all GW products for 20% off all the time. There is also MiniWarGaming which sells stuff for 10% off (also is quite a bit easier to use, you have to go through mail/phone order on the warstore).

Umm...those prices for the minis are actually higher than the ones at my local GW and the GW site, even after the price cut they give Why is that?

Ork players are the most generally crazy.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Um, can you give an example? Is it all of them? I noticed that a few choice items on MiniWarGaming is the same price or close to, but the list givin' on TheWarStore is all 20% off. Also make sure that with MiniWarGaming you are looking at the correct price (they show a Canadian dollar count and a US count).

Edit: And frankly, I find Kroot pretty ehh. At least in my experience. In the first few games I've played in, my squad of 10 Kroot and 3 hounds were obliterated by Ork shootas (squad of 10) at first contact. 1 round of shooting, and each time I lost about 50% of them and they were sent packing. Now, this was mostly due to some decent rolls by my Ork opponent, but the fact that Kroot toughness is the same as a firewarrior, and that they have no armor save, it makes them very vulnerable targets. The fact that they are only 3 points less than a firewarrior, makes them pretty ehhhh in my mind.

Though I'm sure theres a way to play them right, probably mostly used for assaulting from cover to keep foes locked in combat while all the shooty goes on outside.

[Eldan]

I have tried to build Saim-Hann armies, it's difficult to make them useful. There are just things you can't efficiently take down with bikes and vypers.