C.u.t.e. I I I

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

In Which
Children Undergo True Epihanies

When I was a child, I spoke like a child,
Thought like a child, felt like a child,
Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things.
1 Corinthians 13:11

Why?
A Child

This is the new hub thread for Project C.U.T.E., which is, in turn, dedicated to creating a role-playing game, setting, mechanics, and all, which simulates the experiences of 'pretend'. Sticks are swords, your teddy bear really is alive and really does love you, and the shadows in your closet really do conceal something just awful.

Introduction

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Why start it up again?
Project C.U.T.E. began on the twenty-first of june, 2006, and ran for twenty-eight pages.
I begin with these bare facts because I have no wish to instill a sense of granduer or accomplishment; humility is more to the point, and more accurate besides. Nonetheless; the project itself fired a few minds, inspired a few spirits, and brought some degree of happiness or amusement to, I would hope, many.

If the question is, 'why begin again', then the answer is not that I want to revisit an old thread. The answer is that I want to return to an old- a very old- idea.

Nearly every role-playing game has, at one point or another, made the comparison between children's pretending and its own, more codified means of creating imaginary characters. The truth or fiction of this analogy is outside my province, but I will say that in many respects the games we create and play don't, and can't, recapture the soaring freedom of the ever-changing, potent flights of fancy we possessed in youth.
But I believed then and I believe now that we should try. That's why Project CUTE is back online.

Why a game about kids?
This is a question with more answers, and better ones.
First, we were all kids once, and the confusion, the promise, and the hope of childhood is something that has value even when its truth has passed.
Second, the experience of childhood is such that perhaps no other time in a person's life is the act of playing a role such a wondrous thing.

Childhood has an intellectual and emotional honesty that edges into brutality; adults will say 'kids can be so cruel' and leave it at that, but this does childhood a disservice. Nothing a child even percieves is trivial; each aspect of their carefully tailored world is thick with meaning and emotion. The seachanges of friendship into enmity, joy into sorrow or anger, are so rapid in childhood as to approach madness- but the resilient soul of a child contains these changes and grows apace. The moral universe of a child is at once pointed, and simple; it brooks little obfuscation but has few shades.
Childhood is, in a word, an intense time to be alive, and tapping into this intensity is the goal of this project.

What about the old material?
Depending on the direction of the project (and see below for some details on that), the old material may be imported wholesale, or may be converted in some way; there's really no telling. Rest assured, however, that the work of the many, many people who left us a class, a magic item, or a feat, or a combat action to hide under the sheets, won't be forgotten. I couldn't- could you?

What's this about direction?
After giving the matter a considerable amount of thought, I've decided to remove C.U.T.E. from the 3.5 edition D&D ruleset, as it stands today. I will be listening to appeals of this decision, but the primary thrust of my work on the project will be in keeping with it.

The new system- which I am almost sure would be your next question- will be a, please note, modified version of the Fourth edition rules. I am aware that there is a certain amount of vitriol still attracted by 4e, but as this project is creating all new, all-original content, here is our chance to fix those problems we percieve with the system.
I stand by my choice of 4e for reasons of mathematical and mechanical soundness; it's not a perfect system, but it is a solid foundation. I loved 3.5 and I continue to do so, but moving forward and imagining new things in new ways is what CUTE should be about.

Guideposts of Design

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D&D, and many other systems, have elected of late to include, along with notes as to their specific rationales for choices made during development, more general 'guideposts': principles that guide all decisions made during the design process, and that shape the final product, sometimes in unexpected ways. Since I like the conciet, I've elected to provide such 'Guideposts' for C.U.T.E., as follows.

Imagination:
CUTE content is creative, and rewards creativity. No concept should be too outre, no combination too bizzare, no action too illogical, to break the will of the system or its designers. Children are bizzare and illogical too, but their world is vibrant and alive because of imagination. CUTE is a game about imagination, and imaginative and varied solutions are what it should reward.

Honesty:
As I've mentioned, childhood is a time when 'brutally honest' just doesn't cut it when it comes to a view of the universe. While children decieve (readily and often without guilt), their intellectual rigor and willingness to face unblinking eye of infinite darkness surpasses the greatest mature hero at times. The project will not shy away from darkness for the sake of adorability, will not shrink from horror for the sake of tone; but, on the same coin, we will not deny joy and light where it can be found, we will not denigrate goodness and virtue for the sake of literary conflict. CUTE's view of its universe is, like a child's, not a literary or an affected view, but an honest, penetrating one.

Choice:
When a child, we are confronted with choices; the game we produce should reflect, reward, and require choice on the part of the player. The system should provide a context for decisions about who we are, and who we wish to be, as well as providing interesting choices in-character, and allowing players to make their own way in their own world.

Links to Previous Threads

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Here's our archives; be forewarned, ladies and gentlemen, that many of the links therein are no longer functional. The process of retrieving old content will be a lengthy one, but is already in progress.

• Project C.U.T.E.: The Original.
• C.U.T.E. II: The Sequel.

Anyone who is able to provide a working link to the CUTE compendium and the class evaluation threads would be a huge help, and thanks in advance.

New Content

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This is where you come in, everybody. I hope to fill this with links soon!

All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did.
T.E. Lawrence

So long, dad! I'm off to check my tiger trap!
-Calvin

[AstralFire]

Er... I don't actually get what this -is-...?

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Er... I don't actually get what this -is-...?

Clarified for you. ^^;

[Vaynor]

Yay! I need to make some more Pillow Warrior stuff now.

Edit: Someone needs to undergo the task of recompiling all of the old material into a new list. Hmm.

Edit: Oh, 4e. Nevermind.

[AstralFire]

Clarified for you. ^^;

Ah! Cool, sounds like it could be fun. It's certainly creative.

Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to familiarize myself significantly with 4E, so I don't think I can participate much.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Ah! Cool, sounds like it could be fun. It's certainly creative.

Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to familiarize myself significantly with 4E, so I don't think I can participate much.

That's actually my personal project; condensing the mechanics I'm stealing from that system into an easy-to-skim form so people won't need to know the new edition to participate in CUTE.

But keep in mind many of the old contributors didn't do stats of any kind at all- just posted ideas. You're welcome and encouraged to do the same.

[dyslexicfaser]

Pretty interesting idea.

It's too bad 'Storybook Hero' is a dead link, I liked he sound of it.

Your quote makes me want to make a 'Calvin' class. Someone who can change the rules just by wanting it hard enough ("Well, I say we're playing pirates now."). Or, alternatively, a 'Calvinball' sort of thing ("I declare this an anti-magic area!" "Ah, but it's Tuesday, and on Tuesdays this whole field is an Opposite Zone!")

I just don't know how to model it in 4E. Yet.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why'd you have to post this while I was asleep? *siiigh*

Glad it's back.

So, are we still going with the "Land of Imagination" setting idea?

So, just a list of the classes we came up with...

The Whiner - He's more or less a bard without the spells, right? - Leader?
The Dreamer - She had healing abilities, as well as an "imaginary friend". I can't remember much about her. And I made her... - Probably Leader
The Darling - A sort of social interactions centric rogue. She had a "spite" attack which let her do more damage to people giving into her wiles. - Striker
The Storybook Hero - I think was a warrior-type with imagination-based powers? - Defender
The Animal Lover - A sort of ranger/druid thing with a love of animals. - Striker?
Panlid Champion - I... don't remember. I know there was something about using improvised items, but then, I thought all classes could do that? - Defender?
Mama's Boy - A Cloistered Cleric, more or less. - Leader
Scaredycat - A rougish sort who specialises in detecting (and avoiding) danger. - ... I have no clue.
Quiet Reader - One half of the "stories are magical" duo. A very bookish sort who turned out to be very Warlock-y. - Striker or Controller
Storyteller - The other "stories are magical" duo. A sort of wizard/bard mix. - Controller

Whew! Anything I'm missing?

[Elrosth]

Hellz, yes! Its back!

Any thoughts on where we should start? I think we should start either talking about the system's new mechanics and how a class might be built, or just pick a class and start there, fleshing out the system with that as a test.

[Yuki Akuma]

As this is 4e now...

What are we going to do with power sources? Make them all Imagination? Make subsets of imagination, like Stories, Games, Lessons, and so on?

[Mephibosheth]

Open (if you dare) the spoiler for links to previously unlinked C.U.T.E. threads! Muahahahaha!

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Compendiums

Completed Content - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10307
C.U.T.E. Compendium - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10716
Note: Many many obsolete links are contained herein

Evaluation

Evaluation Methodology - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10415
The Prodigy - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28001
The Dreamer - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10421
The Animal Lover - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10229
The Panlid Champion - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10259
The Darling - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10317
The Storybook Hero - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10345

As to the new system, I haven't had a chance to play or homebrew in 4e yet, but I'll crack open the books again and try to familiarize myself enough to contribute. I've been around C.U.T.E. from the beginning and feel like I have a pretty good handle on the way the project's developed.

In terms of how to progress, it might be helpful to pin down the details of how the imaginal plane and the material plane work and interact before we launch into class design. I remember this became a big sticking point in the previous attempts, merely because we didn't know when class powers might work and when they shouldn't. If we can pin down these broader, setting-level issues, the classes might be easier to outline. Just a suggestion.

Yay! C.U.T.E.'s back! Glad I kept this stick sword and pot helmet handy, just in case! *brandishes fake weapons, laughs gleefully, inexplicably looses two front teeth*

Mephibosheth

[Yuki Akuma]

Perhaps we need some new descriptors for powers. Say, Real, for powers that work in the real world, Quasi-real, for powers that only work in the Imaginal but, if used in "shallow" areas, can have real effects, and Unreal, which only work in the Imaginal and don't effect anything that isn't in the Imaginal?

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Well, here was my core concept for determining how the Imaginal plane works: a concept called Immersion.

Both characters and the campaign as a whole have an immersion rating.

A character's immersion rating is equal to their level, but they can also gain immersion, via, for instance, monster attacks, or by acts that particularly bring them out of touch with reality; a character's immersion rating resets to their level after an extended rest.

A campaign's immersion rating is equal to the player's average level + 1/5 their gained immersion, rounding up.

Monsters and even areas also have an immersion rating.

Players can only deal 'lethal' damage to creatures whose immersion rating is equal to their own, or (lesser? I think is what I mean)- that is, characters have to be 'deep enough' in their imaginations to be as immersed or more immersed than the monster under the bed before they can vanquish it for real.
However, the process also works in reverse; monsters can't do anything more than make kids faint if the kids don't have an immersion rating as high as their own.

Kids can't even percieve creatures or aspects of zones that have an immersion rating 2x their own, though they can be affected by them environmentally; if a pixie starts a fire, an un-immersed kid can still be burned.
Area affects at higher immersion have effects on reality; direct effects and attacks don't.

The nonhuman races- dolls, taking animals, spirits, etc.- have a minimum immmersion rating. They can be played at first level, but the other characters might not be able to see them at first- they'd be an invisible helping hand until immersion got up to the point where they were visible. On the other hand, characters just might not see them attack or use powers- they'd appear to be an inanimate teddy.

A character can spend either base immersion or gained immersion out-of-combat, as a sort of ritual, to alter reality; for instance, they can determine that a door is unlocked before they try it, or that the weather will be sunny when they open their eyes, or that they have a small concealable item in their pocket; a favorable circumstance, in short.
These changes have 2x the cost when a creature is involved, and creatures with an intelligence score can oppose them with their own immersion pools.
Further, changes that contradict things actually observed- for instance, if the child knows the door is locked but wants to believe it isn't- have 2x the cost.

Immersion can also be used in combat, as a standard action, to grant a +1 bonus to defense for every 5 points spent, or increase attack and damage at the same 1/5 ratio for the encounter; or prevent a monster's power from recharging for 10 points; or ensure an automatic success or failure on a save vs. ongoing damage for 10.

Characters reduced to zero immersion, however, lose all their class abilities and can't percieve anything with immersion ratings higher than one.

Monster immersion ratings are related to role; solo and elite monsters have immersion ratings equal to their CR (and thus deal lethal damage to opponents of their level), while ordinary monsters have immersion ratings equal to CR-2.

Areas, as mentioned, also have immersion ratings, and can use their immersion pool to oppose attempts to change reality if the DM so chooses- the DM also determines how much resistance there is. Areas have an immersion pool of 2x their immersion rating, but it never regenerates. On the other hand, reality cannot be changed once an area can no longer oppose it; reality becomes fixed there.
If the player wins this opposed roll, they change reality the way they wish it to change.
If the DM/area wins, reality changes in an oppositional way; things become harder for the players, triggering a 'trap' or 'obstacle'.
If the player wins, but their opposed roll's result was two times the area's result, there's an 'overload' sort of condition, and an exaggerated, undesired version of their intention results- instead of being unlocked, the door falls off its hinges.

Note that 'lethal' is above in quotes for a reason; the vast, vast majority of monsters never kill children (that is, players). Varied victory conditions can result, like memory loss, personality changes, trauma (emotional or physical), reduced or increased base immersion, curses (both the D&D -1 to X and the more traditional "you must always tell the truth etc.").

Some powers may allow players to inflict these 'victory conditions' themselves.

My vision for what happens when a character reaches maximum immersion- that is, their base immersion is 30- is that they dissappear into the imaginal realm. The seduction of imagination allows or forces them to abandon reality itself, and they become things for future characters to encounter. At least one epic destiny should probably reject this fate, but the majority should embrace it; it feels like the natural conclusion to me.

Campaign immersion, since I haven't explained it, determines the maximum CR of monsters, primarily, as well as the maximum immersion rating of areas.

Rather than granting treasure or having an 'imbue' skill, characters gain package of 'belief points' as their adventures make them more confident that yes, that stick can act as a sword. Each belief points corresponds to X amount of GP or X number of item levels, and it can be spent to enhance any item the character chooses, although each item can only have one enhancement at a given time.

Immersion, besides being a characters statistic, is also a power keyword; some powers only work at/above a given immersion, others can affect the use of immersion or immersion ratings, others might grant characters the ability to use immersion more quickly or in a new way.

Under my conception, this is the new unifying mechanic that explains how imagination and reality interact.

Thoughts?

ALso; I'd like to drop Panlid Champion. I'm out of love with it.

To summarize immersion relationships; lower immersion creatures etc. are 'real' and can be affected by powers...actually, hm, add this: creatures whose immersion is 1/2 the player's current immersion are as immune to lethality as those with immersion ratings greater than his.

This way, creatures that are as deep in as the character can be hit, creatures almost as deep are the same, things way back up there in real reality are immune- to them, you aren't real- and things way down deep aren't real to you yet. Bam.

I'm in favor of sub-sources under the imagination mantle, as described; stories, etc.

'Calvinball' is probably precisely how rituals work; rituals and counter-rituals (you haven't touched eleventh base), and counter-counter-rituals (you're out, give me a dollar).

[Yuki Akuma]

...Damn, Shiny.

Yes, I like that. How do "Belief" points work? Are they tied to Immersion, or something else?

As for power sources!

Fiction - the power of fictional stores, from books, films or TV. Powers based on the Fiction power source are called "Stories".

(This power source is for Storytellers and Quiet Readers.)

Rolemodel - the power of beings greater than - or simply different to - children, granting them powers based on imitation. Powers based on the Rolemodel power source are called Lessons.

(Mama's Boys, Animal Lovers and any other 'divine' classes use this.)

Play - raw imagination, inspiration and improvisation. Children with the strongest link with the raw Imaginal use this power source. Powers based on the Play power source are called "Imaginings".

(Dreamers, Storybook Heroes and others.)

Reality - powers based in reality, or at least what children assume to actually be reality. Powers that use the Reality power source are called "Acts".

(Not too sure about the last one, especially for the names of powers. I thought Whiners, Darlings, and possibly Scaredycats would use the Reality power source.)

[Mephibosheth]

In general, I really like Shiny's immersion mechanic. It's pretty simple and could be really helpful in adjudicating transitions between the real and imaginal, especially in the imaginal borderlands where encounters with everyday things can be common. I do have a couple of questions and comments.

First, does moving deeper into the imaginal plane require higher levels of immersion? If so, how do you deal with low-level (and thus, low immersion) characters in the deep imaginal plane? We've already established that moving deeper into the imaginal plane doesn't necessarily correlate with more powerful encounters or higher level characters, so it wouldn't make sense to tie depth in the plane to the character's immersion level. Or is it possible to "gain" temporary immersion to move deeper (perhaps via contact with a transition zone that grants enough immersion to move deeper). Or am I over-thinking this whole thing?

Second, I'm a little concerned about area-of-effect attacks and secondary effects of higher immersion creatures affecting those without. If that were true, wouldn't there be parents injured by pixies all over the place? I would say that un-immersed entities (parents, older kids, kids who've moved out of the imaginal plane, etc) should be unaffected by things with higher immersion ratings, simply because those things are ultimately unreal.

Third (and somewhat following from the above), is there going to be a way to deal with temporary changes in immersion, especially insofar as parents and the real world affect kids' imaginary lives? You might be far immersed in the imaginal plane when the light's out and the Monster Under the Bed is creeping up, but the minute Mom comes in to turn on the light, everything changes and you're jerked back out of the imaginal plane. How does immersion deal with that?

Otherwise, I love it. It will take some difficult work to make everything add up properly (I'm envisioning lots of tables for how immersion rating affects locations and creatures, and some difficult work with belief points), but it seems like it'll be worth it.

And I'm fine with dropping the panlid champion.

Mephibosheth

[ninja_penguin]

1. This stuff seems pretty neat and charming.

So, just a list of the classes we came up with...

The Whiner - He's more or less a bard without the spells, right? - Leader?

The Darling - A sort of social interactions centric rogue. She had a "spite" attack which let her do more damage to people giving into her wiles. - Striker

Scaredycat - A rougish sort who specialises in detecting (and avoiding) danger. - ... I have no clue.

2. I've done some DM'ing and unposted homebrewing stuff for 4e, so just some thoughts. I've generally thought that a lot of the classes tend to bleed into a secondary role a little bit. For example, the fighter drifts into striker territory, the Paladin drifts into leader territory, and the Warlock drifts into controller territory (disclaimer: partially my opinions, partially gathered from others). So sometimes you can think about what else they can do, when determining their abilites.

I haven't read the previous C.U.T.E stuff, so if this is totally wrong or off-base, feel free to disregard it:

The whiner: I also can imagine this one being able to mark or daze creatures at range through his constant complaining. Probably targets will defense a lot.

The darling: Could probably drift into controller territory, too. Maybe some daily dazing/dominates/weakens/whathaveyou.

Scardeycat: I have this mental image of a controller/leader whose abilities function around sliding and shifting allies and enemies, in both the 'oh god, have to get away' and the 'quick, get between me and the scary thing!'.

Also, possible suggestion for an epic destiny: growing up to be a parent that still remembers.

[Vadin]

Wha...what? What do I see here? Shiny? And CUTE? The project that got me interested in setting and concept design (I used to be randomman413)? Wow...it's been quite awhile. And 4e? Vadin approves, sir. Count me in.

Immersion ratings- very nice. Conceptually, in terms of finding 4e parallels, immersion points are like a combination of action points and healing surges? Powers and class features let you do different things with them, but there are a few universal abilities?

On the topic of healing surges, those remain, yes? If any adventurers should be able to magically get back health for no real explainable reason, it should be children. It's like they're made of rubber or something.

And, a topic that hasn't really been broached yet (and can probably wait until after classes are at least started), paragon paths- related to classes or not? In looking at homebrewed stuff, I've found that I really like the universal paragon paths (those that only require a certain feat that anyone can obtain and a certain trained skill) much more than class specific paths. Power source specific paragon paths work too.

Some ideas for paragon paths
Imagineer- Summons creatures and uses his imagination to alter the world around him, both on the real and imaginal plane. (Summoning and area effects, with the ability to use imagination to affect the material plane)

Copycat- In acting like the Monster Under The Bed and the Tooth Fairy, the copycat takes on some of their aspects and abilities. (Striker? Also either with a selection of powers or the ability to take powers from monsters (ala Blue Mage))

Leader- Just what it sounds like. Even though he isn't any older (he might even be a little younger), this kid knows how to take control and act like a grown-up when the grown-ups aren't around. (Obviously, a leader. Anti-magic and buffing abilities. Less positional battlefield control, more changing how the monsters can act)

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

/Yuki::

Belief replaces conventional 'treasure', since gold pieces don't make much sense for children- instead they can imbue ordinary items with belief to have the function ordinary magic items would, or to grant themselves services etc.

Your subsidiary power sources look good- no real problems there, though I'm not sure about the names, which seems to be an unsurety you share.

/Meph::

Way to mind-read; I was considering this very thing/these very things.

I'd say that low-immersion characters in high-immersion zones sort of gradually come 'into phase' with the zone, in the following way: interacting with a zone whose immersion rating is higher than your own grants you temporary immersion (that is, immersion above your base value)- sort of like your 'transition zone' idea.

As an example, let's say little Timmy enters a fairy ring with his teddy, Mr. Stuffs, at immersion 5 (Timmy's about halfway through his first tier, and brave). What he doesn't know is that the ring is linked to the court of an Erkling and has immersion rating 10- so he doesn't feel any qualms about stepping into it and fiddling with some mushrooms that sing when touched. Doing so (and thus interacting with the zone) grants Timmy a point of temporary immersion every minute he remains in the zone, until he reaches immersion 10- and the Erkling's guards suddenly dismiss their tarnhelms to ask what he's doing there.

Thus, low-immersion characters essentially become more immersed the longer they remain in high-immersion zones, but the immersion is 'artificial', based on their circumstances and not their deep-seated belief or being, and thus, after an extended rest, they won't be able to percieve them the same way.

Keep in mind that a zone's immersion rating determines maximum monster CR, not minimum, so the DM is still free to tailor encounters to the party's level; but since 4e has recourse for encounters fairly far above the party's CL, having high-immersion (thus highly imaginative) zones in low-immersion (thus low-level) games is very possible.

Hmmm, you have a point; let's say that creatures with immersion 0 are completely immune to anything done by those with higher ratings; all adults are automatically immersion 0, as are some rare children. Creatures with immersions of 1 or more are affected by creatures insofar as they can percieve them, subject to the rules regarding lethality and immersion.

I think 'ultimately unreal' is debatable; I'd like to go for more of a 'quantum reality' thing where whether fairies really exist, and are just out of phase, or don't exist, is ambiguous.

In addition to circumstances that cause you to gain immersion, there are circumstances that cause you to lose immersion; that's one of the reasons I went with a dynamic immersion mechanic rather than a static rating equal to your level.

As an example of gaining and losing immersion, little Suzy, just starting her career at level 3 (and immersion 3), awakes from unsteady dreams to find her closet open. Confronted with an object of fear, she populates the darkness with horrors, gaining one point of immersion. Making her way to the floor, she ties her jump-rope to the bed and her waist, and enters the closet, toy hammer in hand. The closet is an immersion 5 zone; after a few moments therein, Suzy gains an additional point of immersion and the deathwatches (supernaturally agressive beetles, and things Suzy is afraid of) attack from behind. She shrieks fit to raise all hell, but begins whaling on the creatures.

Alerted by the shriek, Suzy's mother springs into action, coming into the room and turning on the light; the prescence of a parent drops Suzy back to her base immersion rating of 3, and 'reveals' the beetles as harmless dust bunnies. After getting her untied, mum tucks Suzy in and carefully props something heavy against the closet door, being an understanding type, and does her the courtesy of looking under the bed and everywhere else monsters might hide, dropping Suzy's immersion below her base, to immersion 1. Suzy is thus able to sleep untroubled by the window whisperer (an immersion 3 annoyance she might otherwise have faced), until she wakes up- given an extended rest, her immersion resets to 3, and the next night she may be troubled by an almost imperceptible voice.

Dynamic Immersion is designed explicitly to model swift, frequent changes in what is real and what isn't; whether by choice or circumstance, children can change their own reality very quickly.

/Ninja::
Thanks for the vote of confidence.

I agree with your assessment of class roles; they're more guidelines than actual rules, as one might say.

I like that idea for an epic destiny- it's solid, and fits a niche I had planned out.

Those could be some decent conceptions for the new iterations of those classes; I'll consider, and I like.

/Vadin::
Glad to have you on board, chum.

That's correct, for the example you gave; they're universally available but the way different classes interact with them can be different, sometimes very.

Healing surges are absolutely still in, and for just the reason you've named.

I'd like to create at least two paragon paths for each class that are class-specific, and one (or two) that are not; for instance, a Darling could have 'Sugar Savant' and 'Spice Savant' as their class-specific paths, and 'Wheedler' requiring training in bluff and the sad puppy face feat.

Imagineer might be a little too powerful, really, as I see it now; summoning is something I'd like to see, but I'm not sure in what form.

Copycat might be a good basis for an idea I'm batting for a class based on the old 'Guardian Bearer'/Kid-with-a-teddy concept we've had since the start.

And 'Bossy' might be an interesting paragon path for Momma's Boy or one of the other 'mentored' classes, though I'm not sure how well it works as a class.

To all

Some questions to consider:
What previously created aspects and items are iconic of the system itself, as opposed to just 'good ideas', and why?

What holes still need to filled, mechanically and fluff-wise, with classes or other material?

What should absolutely not be a part of C.U.T.E., if anything, and why?

What should the default setting for C.U.T.E. be? Why?

My take on the last is actually a few different ones, as follows:

• Under the Bed, Into the Woods: The default setting, an approximately modern, loosely-defined slice-of-life drama. Light on folkloric elements, long on 'I tried to do this when I was a kid' and self-created beliefs or legends; The Krampus is unlikely to show up, but 'Scumbly-Scuzzy-Joe', a hobo you saw once that you think is a vampire, might.
• Prepatory: A WWII-era british setting with a victorian sensibility, set in august 1940, at a prepatory school in London. Children escape the horrors of war (and uniforms) to adventure in the school's corridors or abandoned houses, streets, and even sewers without. Long on interpersonal and intraparty conflict, with a 'belly of the beast' monster focus where derelicts and war profiteers become something more sinister when the shadows grow long.
• Chicken-leg House: Eastern european poorly-defined semi-ancient setting, with by far the biggest focus on actual world folklore; mothers and fathers tell their children not to go out after dark with good reason, and terrible things lurk in the shadows of a still-young world for the unwary. By far the most lethal setting in CUTE, and featuring the Baba Yaga in a starring role.

Of course, any of the elements that define any of the above could be mixed into the others; I just think these three ideas cover our niches, more or less.
Thoughts? Comments? Ideas?

[Yuki Akuma]

Ah, okay. So Belief is just currency? That works fine.

I don't like the idea of high-immersion creatures being totally unable to affect 0-immersion creatures like adults. Some children powers would probably work fine on adults, given the right situation. Not the imagination-based ones, of course, but... other ones, like "Sad Puppy Face" or something.

An idea for the Dreamer: how about class features/powers that cost Immersion to use, and also a way to recover/exceed her base Immersion rapidly, so she doesn't 'run out' of Immersion during an adventure?

Also, my favourite setting? "Under the Bed" or whatever you want to call it. I dunno, I'm just inspired too much by Rugrats, Calvin and Hobbes, Ozy and Millie, and other stuff...

Not that I don't like historical settings, but I'm just better with modern ones.

[LastoftheSummer]

Interesting, If I may ask a few questions,

If you go with a more modern setting, will you include no-human races? I like the idea of a boarding school with gnomes, dwarfs, warforged, etc.
How will time/aging be handled? if at all?
How much do you intend to homebrew and how much will be converted from 4th edition or elsewhere?
How will pets/stuffed animals/imaginary friends be handled?


Edit: I have some 4th ed material and would be willing to convert some stuff as needed

[Fax Celestis]

Tangental note: My "main beef" with 4e, at this point, is one thing: I can't slog through the material in order to learn it. Reading it makes my eyes bleed.

[Yuki Akuma]

Tangental note: My "main beef" with 4e, at this point, is one thing: I can't slog through the material in order to learn it. Reading it makes my eyes bleed.

Oh well. Sorry we won't have you aboard?

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

/Yuki::
Essentially, although I see things like 'access' and 'services' playing a bigger role here than elsewhere. Belief might also be used to buy 'status' with a given group, say.

Well, we could easily add a power keyword- 'actual'- for things that would, logically, effect the real world, like interaction-based powers, or subtler effects. And some creatures might well be able to effect the world- it could explain the concept of, say, Gremlins. There literally are gremlins. :P

That's an interesting idea re: dreamer. Happy thoughts could act to recover immersion, say, and then immersion could be used to recover health, rather than Happy Thoughts being a direct-healing at-will.

I thought it might be, and that is the default for a reason. C&H are our forefathers in this noble endeavor.

/Last::
Fantasy CUTE is a different story, I think; it's possible, but I'm not making it primary. The present way of handling races is, in my conception, modular; things like 'brain' or 'fat' granting ability bonus packages, skills, and powers.

There are alternate, higher-immersion races based on things you'd find in stories, like porcelain dolls that walk and talk, animals that wear waistcoats, or spirits that watch over children. But gnomes? Not so sure.

Time is handled more or less as a 'neverwhen', as far as I can think now; I don't see a reason to worry about kids growing up over the course of their adventuring career. It seems like an unnecessary wrinkle.

The base mechanics will likely be converted. The applications- that is, the feats, possibly even the skills, and definitely, of course, the powers- will be homebrewed, as will races, paragon paths, etc.
Some mechanics- like a social combat system- may be added, and some mechanics like immersion that are already added are new, of course.

In various ways. There may be a class based on this, there will almost certainly be items based on this; summoning may be handled this way. Mounts could easily be dogs or even ponies- kids love ponies, in concept if not in practice.

/Fax::

I'd be happy to give an executive summary of the pieces you actually need to know, if you like. And that's mostly generalities.

Also, I don't think Fax said he wasn't onboard.

[ninja_penguin]

haven't had time to read the previous C.U.T.E threads due to time constraints. I'll just be tossing out ideas, and I'll read back on stuff (if required) sometime next week, after my projects are done.

Also, I thought I had an answer for the first question, but blanked.

What holes still need to filled, mechanically and fluff-wise, with classes or other material?

Fluff, fluff-wise. (lame joke, sorry) How do stuffed animals and cherished dolls function in the world, and how do they work? Some classes could be designed to work with some sort of companion, but I think that should be considered. In some cases I think that they can just be snarky/supportive companions as needed, but if they mechanically do anything, you should think about it. Also, racially, what exists (this applies more to the 'Under the bed, into the woods' setting, and maybe a little less so to 'Prepatory') in regards to stuffed animals, bean bag animals, and dolls? Do they spring up to larger size when immersion kicks in, or do they just animate themselves, staying the same size?

I'm also a little bit fuzzy on the immersion/belief concept, but that's just because I don't have time for a very detailed read. I do think that an expy/port of channel divinity could become 'Channel imagination', with similar kinds of effects, and some powers for some the 'divine' classes.

Also, I've found action points and milestones to be pretty useful in 4e. just change them to 'awesome points', or some similar analogue.

Also, I think an important thing for making the classes is to try and balance the numbers of 'primary' roles (i.e. what they're identified as, and not what they bleed into), and make sure that each type offers something different enough to make it interesting.

What should absolutely not be a part of C.U.T.E., if anything, and why?

In the 'Under the Bed' setting, death. Seems thematically inappropriate to me. I also see the 'Under the Bed' setting as the most light, and least harmful. The other two settings (to me) seem like you can't just flick on the lights when things go bump in the night, or you might wish you hadn't.

I've also considered the length of ritual casting in 4e to be ludicrous. I've already homeruled in our group that ritual caster can cast rituals of particular categories (exploration so far, maybe more as I look at them closer) as a full round action instead, as most of the are either:

1. A single round/very short duration, and it's not worth waiting around ten minutes for.
2. Last 24 hours, so it's the same as if they'd just cast it in the morning to begin with.

What should the default setting for C.U.T.E. be? Why?

Personally, I lean towards the 'Under the bed, into the woods' and 'Prepatory' styles. I like the slightly lighter backgrounds, and I guess that the 'Prepatory' reminds me of a darker version of 'The Lion, The witch, and The Wardrobe'.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Nothing's ever required; we're easy-going chaps.

As to Fluff Fluff:

• I'm considering a 'Bearer of the Guardian' as Play Striker- they have a horde of stuffed animals or dolls they can fling into position and use to launch attacks; many of their powers are delayed-action 'now that we're all in position...' flanking maneuvers.
• One category of items players can likely recieve using belief are 'companions', which can be animal, spirit, or object in nature, and which all have two basal functions- sage advice, and a boost to certain skill usages. This is the snarky/supportive stuffed animal that doesn't act in combat.
• Racially, the assumption is that their exact properties are likely a function of immersion; as high-immersion races, they have variable appearance. The current ones I'm considering are 'toadhallers', that is, clothed, talking animals; 'porcelains', a generic term for dolls made of any material; and 'fluffs', a generic term for all stuffed or bean 'animal' toys or soft, cuddly toys. At low immersion, the two 'toy' races are animated but still size small (which, since kids are the rubric and thus 'medium', is very small); at high immersion they are child-sized.

Immersion is basically the core concept for the project, influencing almost every aspect of the system. I'd give it a close read.

Belief is just GP by another name and with a shift in focus.

Action points and milestones are likely to be kept and I doubt I'll even change the names. Giving a little 'extra push' is very kid, to me.

I don't think- at least, hopefully- we'll have a problem with interesting and varied classes.

I agree on the subject of death in 'Under the Bed'.

Some rituals will likely stay lengthy, but others will be more spontaneous; and there will likely be ways and means (specific sites, immersion usages) to reduce casting time for certain utility rituals.

Also, I should note that the number of attack powers each class possesses is likely to be reduced, and the number of utility powers increased, so the need for rituals may be somewhat less.

Prepatory is darker, yes; keep in mind, if you know your history, it's set exactly one month before the beginning of The Blitz- so if the characters haven't sublimed, there's a good chance they'll die in the bombing. Tres dark.

[Yuki Akuma]

I see absolutely no reason why "Under the Bed, Into the Woods" can't be dark.

The real world isn't all light and fluffy. And in a world where the monsters out of a child's imagination can come to life and try to eat him, I don't see how a child couldn't ever die.

There might be 'levels' of death, involving either being thrown out of the imaginal (and having your Immersion reduced to 0), slipping into a coma, and 'real' death (which can still be reversed by high-Immersion powers and rituals)...

Sure, the "Under the Bed" part could simply be ended with a parent coming into the room, but not all adventures would be like that. The setting could easily involve children exploring some abandoned building or whatever, with no hope for Parental/Divine Intervention.

I also don't see the point of setting "Prepatory" "exactly one month before the Blitz". Why? Can't you just say "at some point leading up to, during or directly following the Blitz", and actually leave it up to GMs to decide for themselves whether or not they want to deal with characters all dying due to bombs falling into their bedrooms?

[Human Paragon 3]

Hey guys. I've been lurking on the thread for a while, and probably will continue to do so. Had a few thoughts though.

The first involves Pan's Labrynth. I think that text is pretty valuable as far as it relates to your enterprise here. There's a direct analogy to the Prepatory setting, of course, where 'real life' and the imagined world overlap and influence eachother, and where you're never sure which reality is actually worse. At the very least, I think it's a plausable DMing style that can be applied to running CUTE.

The second has to do with character death. I think it should be rare, but possible, and fall into a few differant catagories. The trigger for death could be the same as normal 4e, that is, falling to your negative blodied value (or it could be different, or there could be multiple ways for it to happen, like jumping into a bottomless pit or something). I think, however, that the circumstances should dictate one of three outcomes.

1: Character Death leads to permanant expulsion from the Imaginal. That is, what happens in the game (or sometimes real life) is so traumatizing to the child that s/he can no longer enjoy play. Their immersion becomes 0 permanantly. Essentially, this is the end of innocence. Powerful rituals could re-immerse them.

2: Character Death leads to permanant immersion. The child becomes part of the Imaginal and can no longer perceive the actual. Even when parents turn the light on, yell at the child or even touch him/her, the kid can't come back. He's lost to the world. The other kids might be able to interact with the lost child in the Imaginal, but s/he is no longer playable. They'd be an NPC for all practical purposes.

3: Charater Death leads to death in the real world. This should only happen in especially dangerous situations, where the children are both highly immersed and in a dangerous analog in the real world (in an abandoned factory, a rock quarry, lost in the city, playing on the highway, in the Red Zone in Iraq etc.). The child dies, and all other kids nearby have their immersion dropped until they can perceive the real world analog that killed the kid. Sometimes this can be teamed up with option 2 (like in Pan's Labrynth). No magic can restore the kid to life, although in some cases he can still be interacted with in the Imaginal.

/thoughts

[Yuki Akuma]

I think we're working under the assumption that "Imagined Things Are Real, For A Give Value Of Real". So, I don't see why very, veyr powerful (21st level+ stuff) Rituals couldn't bring back a child from True Death, although they may not come back in the same body as they left in (they could come back as a stuffed toy, say).

Unless we're going to let the Imaginal actually have an effect on the real world, adults included, but if we do that should still be really powerful and really rare.

When building the 'real world' setting, we might not want to make it exactly like real life in that case, however, as a world where imaginary things can affect reality would be a little different, even if only the children are aware of it.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

I think there's a difference between 'darkness' and physical, mortal death; my remarks on the subject were a bit short, so I'll clarify.

I think 'Under the Bed' can be a very dark setting for players or a DM who want it to be- if you recall, one of our design goals is 'intellectual honesty'.
If it makes sense for the teddy bear people in the stuffing well to eat each other to survive, an adult might make up something to explain why they don't. A child will accept that they do.

Also, time in CUTE passes at exactly the rate the DM chooses to have it pass; it may flow differently in segments of the imaginal. DMs can still choose to have the blitz happen in their campaign, or not; the atmosphere of impending doom all unknown to the characters is what matters.

I do love me some Pan's Labyrinth, clearly.

At any rate, I am in favor of multiple 'victory conditions'.
Juris, you've got some interesting ideas there; I'll include them in the following list.

'Death' Conditions

• Unconciousness: this is the default condition caused by monsters you aren't immersed enough to get really hit by. When you wake up, it was 'all a dream', though the monster isn't any more vanquished than you and may see it differently.
• Immersion Increase or Reduction: this is a 'lethal' condition, that is, it's inflicted by monsters that are as immersed as you. It could, at high levels or in particularly knock-down-drag-out battles, end up with permanent immersion or expulsion, as Juris mentions. However, I'm not sure I agree they're not playable if permanently immersed; it just might be more difficult for them.
• Memory Loss or Personality Change: Also 'lethal', and may be coupled with immersion reduction. The child loses some memory or aspect of their personality to a mind-bending monster, and is forever changed as a result. Physically, however, they likely just fall unconcious and awake not knowing their dog's name- or worse, no longer loving their dog.
• Physical Trauma: The child is injured, losing the use of a limb, an eye, or some other body part, or being permanently weakened or sickly in general, taking constitution damage or a negative status. This may make them extremely difficult to play, but potent rituals may be able to cure the latter set of conditions- broken arms, however, have to heal on their own.
• Emotional Trauma: The child becomes withdrawn or violent, suffering an extreme and near-total personality shift as a response to some horrible event. The specifics of the resultant dementia are up to the player, but it always makes the child almost useless in 'social' situations, and makes life hard for both the character and their friends.
• Mechanical Curse: The child takes a -1 or more penalty to a specific action or actions the monster that defeated them particularly focuses on or, alternatively, detests, as a result of some lost fragment of essence. This is likely to disappear over time.
• Traditional Curse: The child grows a beard, must count small objects scattered in front of them, becomes a were-creature, must tell the truth, or is disliked by someone who formerly revered them; they suffer a flavorful, complicated curse. The curse can usually be removed via a quest or deeply involved ritual, so this victory condition is usually more of a quest hook than a punishment.
• Actual death: Applicable only in the circumstances and under the rules Juris has suggested, I think; and let us keep in mind, some places are wholly imaginal and do not have real-world 'analogs'. Many of the fates above are 'worse than death', but most don't mean the character can never be played again, and I think this is a good idea.

Any thoughts?

I do like the idea of bringing characters back as toys or other nonhuman races, but it'll probably be very high-level; epic tier, even, or whatever our equivalent is called.

I'm pretty much going to stand by 'the imaginal only affects those who can percieve it', which cuts out adults, but very rare and powerful exceptions are within the purview of DM fiat to order.

I also don't think that our 'real world' setting is exactly like our real world; it's more a 'world of imagination' (y'know, like a world of darkness). Its shadows are more inhabited, its toys are brighter-eyed, its sunbeams produce more rainbows and its rainstorms produce more puddles to jump in. It's much like the real world, but it isn't it.

The World of Imagination is the place we would have wanted to grow up in- combined with the place we actually did- and it contains the shadows of the reasons we wanted to grow up, so we wouldn't be scared any more.

[Yuki Akuma]

To put it another way, this World of Imagination is like reality, but moreso; trees are larger and have more footholds, mountains tower over the land, skyscrapers loom overhead, shadows are deeper, rainbows are more distinct and even hills and meadows almost burst with the intensity of their ordinariness.

Does what sound like what you were getting at?