Test Your Might 8

[Keld Denar]

Damage taken. What I wanted to know is if Traj moves up to where Liam is, will he be affected by the dead creature, or since it's dead, it won't be emitting the aura anymore?

What are the rest of your guys gonna do?

EDIT:
What damage type was that that I just failed against? It might matter.

[afroakuma]

The free tetromenos follows behind the centipede swarms, which enter all four squares of your little enclosure. AoOs as needed.

It also casts another obscuring mist, erasing both itself and half of the EBT area from view.

The escaping tetromenoi vanish into obscuring mist of their own, concealing more of the EBT.

Each takes the appropriate CL penalties.

You can't tell what the other athlios does, because you can't see it.

And yes, Traj will be affected.

[Keld Denar]

Any chance I can get an updated battlefield map? This is kinda complicated.

What kind of damage was it that Liam took? Was it some kind of elemental damage?

[afroakuma]

Non-elemental.

*sigh* Let me try to put this together.

This is going to be ridiculous.

[afroakuma]

{table=head]-|A|B|C|D|E|F|G|H|I|J|K|L|M|N|O|P
1|||f|f|f|f||||||||||
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4|||f|f|f|f||M|t|||||||
5|||||||t|t|M|t||||||
6||||||t|t|t|t|t|t|||||
7|||||P|P|P|t|t|P|P|P||||
8|||||P|P|P|t|t|P|P|P||||
9|||||P|P|P|t|t|P|P|P||||
10||||||||||||||||
11||||||||||||||||
12|||||||||||||X|X|X|
13|||||||||||||X|X|X|
14|||||||||||||X|X|X|
15||||||||||||||||
16|||||||S|||S||L||||
17|||||||S||T|S||||||
18|||||||S|V|K|S||||||
19|||||||S|S|S|S||||||
[/table]

[Keld Denar]

Heh...yea.

What do you mean non-elemental? Shouldn't it be like, acid damage or something? Being untyped is pretty strong, especially considering the only creature in the MM with untyped damage is a Balor, and only when they die. Just from a balance PoV.

Also, while I'll play under the rules now, I don't think that the Athlios' aura should still linger after death. The effects of being exposed to it, yea, but the emanation should not continue. Otherwise it leaves huge (30' radius!) dead zones in the battlefield. Just commenting for design purposes....

[afroakuma]

Very true. However, I suspect that if I alter that, Traj is going to do something very terrible to me, probably involving that bloody DI. Maybe I'll just install a timer on when the aura fades after death.

As to the blood; does it matter to you, at this moment, if it's acid damage? The answer is yes, because then you could use protection from energy or suchlike. Except it's not energy. It's a caustic liquid. Caustic means it's a base, non-energetic, unstoppable. Note that a trio of vrocks can do 20d6 untyped damage, so not just balors.

That map is still incomplete, but I assume you can follow that the swarms are where your party is, the tentacles are in a circle, and anything you can't see is under fog.

Fair?

[Keld Denar]

Very true. However, I suspect that if I alter that, Traj is going to do something very terrible to me, probably involving that bloody DI. Maybe I'll just install a timer on when the aura fades after death.

Yea, thats exactly what I was gonna do. Lots of things have abilities that negate different player abilities. Golems are immune to SA and most spells, for example, and a Quell can interdict a cleric/paladin to shut him off from his god for a short period of time. Having 1 player temporarily negated puts pressure on the rest of the party to eliminate the source of that negation. Players should be recognized for using tactics that identify and eliminate it quickly so that the negated player can go back to contributing meaningfully in an encounter. I don't have a problem with Liam's Crushing Dispair lasting for a couple rounds, or persisting through the remainder of the combat even, that was a risk he took to eliminate the baddie. I just don't think its fair that a PC continues to be denied his primary class ability even after the source of that negation is slain. Make sense? Like I said, I'll keep trying to fight, whatever you decide, but the whole point of this exercise is to analyze your monsters, and I'm just giving feedback.

As to the blood; does it matter to you, at this moment, if it's acid damage? The answer is yes, because then you could use protection from energy or suchlike. Except it's not energy. It's a caustic liquid. Caustic means it's a base, non-energetic, unstoppable.

Acid in D&D is a catchall for anything that is liquid and generally nasty. I know there is a difference in real life between an acid and a base, but in D&D, there isn't. I just feel that if PCs were prepared with energy resistance spells and abilities, they should be rewarded, not punished.

Fair?

I'm not trying to cheese it out, just offering commentary on what I feel is balanced or not. It makes little difference to me if my guys live or die. I'm not trying to prove that I'm better than you. I'm trying to look at the bigger picture, and I think these points are valid.

What do you think?

[afroakuma]

Yea, thats exactly what I was gonna do. Lots of things have abilities that negate different player abilities. Having 1 player temporarily negated puts pressure on the rest of the party to eliminate the source of that negation.

You're referring to whom? Your melee character who just singlehandedly slew a creature at +2 his ECL? I don't think he's all that negated.

I don't have a problem with Liam's Crushing Dispair lasting for a couple rounds, or persisting through the remainder of the combat even, that was a risk he took to eliminate the baddie.

Like I said, five rounds once he's out of the aura.

I just don't think its fair that a PC continues to be denied his primary class ability even after the source of that negation is slain. Make sense?

I (and many others) don't find DI to be fair or balanced in the slightest, especially when you obtain it without going the whole mile. Do note that I only stuffed it for Liam; it's working fine on everyone else. Or were you referring to Vast?

Like I said, I'll keep trying to fight, whatever you decide, but the whole point of this exercise is to analyze your monsters, and I'm just giving feedback.

And I appreciate that. Have it your way. Your ridiculously-damaging dwarf can do ridiculously more damage.

Acid in D&D is a catchall for anything that is liquid and generally nasty. I know there is a difference in real life between an acid and a base, but in D&D, there isn't. I just feel that if PCs were prepared with energy resistance spells and abilities, they should be rewarded, not punished.

Certainly they should, but at the same time, generic spells shouldn't be able to disable actual hazards to that extent. A vat of acid is not "energy," it's caustic doom. Had it spewed, say, tanglefoot bag goo on you, you wouldn't be protected by protection from energy.

Your point about the aura is certainly valid; I disagree on the blood, because that is the creature's primary attack mechanism. To have it become docile and harmless via such a simple, easy tactic is not, in my opinion, reasonable.

Not to mention, I know one of your guys has energy immunity armor.

Anyways, the blood's always been untyped. I can make it piercing damage, or negative energy damage (that's a stretch...) but in the end that's what the creature's weapon is. It's not too different from if I gave a creature force damage (which is typed) except that force damage isn't a negative, it's a positive.

My point is this: as acid, the monster's blood presents no challenge, and therefore the monster itself presents no challenge, since its main attack, primary defense and battlefield control mechanism all revolve around its blood. I myself agree that it should be acid, but as long as acid is an energy type instead of a nonmagical hazard, it's just too easy to get around.

*sigh* Let's try it your way. The blood deals acid damage. We'll see how it goes.

Now I'm the one expecting a TPK. _{stupid flippin' Dragonfire Inspiration...}

[Keld Denar]

Yea, Liam does have Energy Immunity enchanted on his breastplate, which he paid 15,000g for, 15k which he could have spent increasing his damage more. I do see your point though, although by extension, protection from fire would make a fire elemental encounter trivial, so fire elementals shouldn't exist? Or dragons for that matter?

Regardless, lets continue with the untyped damage. Liam took it.

And I think we are at a misunderstanding about the DFI aura. Traj still has it up, and its still affecting Vast and Keld because they are all outside of the aura. Liam doesn't have it, because he was cut off from its effects when he entered the aura. Thats fine. What I'm wondering though, is if I bring Traj out of the cave and engage the big blood blob, is his DFI gonna get snuffed out too, just because of his proximity to the slain Athlios? If so, hes gonna stay put, probably indefinitely, because his attacks can't even hurt it without them. He does 2d6+6 base damage with all attacks, like a rogue without sneak attack.

And if he didn't do DFI, he'd be doing normal IC, which would give Liam +6 to hit and +6 to damage, allowing him to PA for 6 more points comfortably, doing +18 more damage per hit, only 3 points per hit behind what the DFI gives. The only reason I opted for DFI over normal IC, is because without it, Traj would be a relatively worthless melee character.

Personally, I think DFI is a little OP as well. I think if you change IC to DFI, it should make it personal. That would allow a character like a Bardblade to be competative, but wouldn't accidentally raise the effectiveness of everyone around him by about 2 HD. But thats neither here, nor there.

So, can Traj come out to play without getting suppressed by the dead Athlios, given that Liam won't recieve the benefits of the DFI for another 5 rounds?

Also, Vast killed one of the Polytrotos. :P Nasty little bugger!

[afroakuma]

Yes, he can join Liam on the front lines.

I might add that red dragons have a hellish load of tricks beyond the fire breath. Elementals, well they are screwed, but it's a given that they literally are energy. Protection from energy against them is like protection from evil against a succubus. It's what's for dinner.

Alrighty, your go, I believe.

[Keld Denar]

Ok...my round.

Traj activates his Anklets of Translocation, teleporting 10' forward, then initiates Pouncing Charge to move to L14. There he full attacks. Weapon damage is normal steel and magic. Provokes an AoO.
Primary MH - (1d20+24)[42] Dmg - (2d6+6)[16]DFI - (6d6)[20]
RRotF MH - (1d20+24)[42] Dmg - (2d6+6)[13]DFI - (6d6)[23]
Primary OH - (1d20+24)[29] Dmg - (2d6+6)[17]DFI - (6d6)[22]
Secondary MH - (1d20+19)[32] Dmg - (2d6+6)[13]DFI - (6d6)[29]
Secondary OH - (1d20+19)[23] Dmg - (2d6+6)[14]DFI - (6d6)[17]

Liam 5' steps to M15 and full attacks with 2 points of PA and flurry. Weapon damage is adamantine and magic, but unaligned.
Primary - (1d20+22)[35] Dmg - (1d8+31)[38]
Flurry - (1d20+22)[23] Dmg - (1d8+31)[36]
Secondary - (1d20+17)[34] Dmg - (1d8+31)[36]
Tertiary - (1d20+12)[24] Dmg - (1d8+31)[33]


Vast will sling at the other ungrappled Polytrotos and then move 35' around the stone cave to L18. (35' move speed)
Sling - (1d20+16)[26] Dmg - (1d4-1)[1]DFI - (6d6)[12]

BTW, the EBT grapple damage for the last round and then for this round is:
EBT1 - (1d6+5)[8]
EBT2 - (1d6+5)[7]

Keld will move to K17 (30' move) and then use Divine Ward (1 TU attempt) to cast his domain Cure Serious Wounds on Liam.

CSW - (3d8+19)[27] * 1.5
40 damage healed.

And thats my turn.

[afroakuma]

Do note that there are four centipede swarms in the cave at this time.

That's 2d6 damage each to all three of them, plus being a distraction. Vast's gonna get penalized for the throw.

vs. Keld
Swarm - (2d6)[6]
Swarm - (2d6)[8]
Swarm - (2d6)[8]
Swarm - (2d6)[3]

vs. Vast
Swarm - (2d6)[6]
Swarm - (2d6)[4]
Swarm - (2d6)[8]
Swarm - (2d6)[6]

vs. Traj
Swarm - (2d6)[4]
Swarm - (2d6)[10]
Swarm - (2d6)[6]
Swarm - (2d6)[9]

[Keld Denar]

Distraction is not a problem for Kelds casting, he was outside of the cave when he cast (he wouldn't have LoS in the cave).

Vast's roll was high enough that he should still hit even with the distraction. Vast didn't take any real hp damage either, between the 16 temp hp from hero's feast and the 11 temp hp from Minor Shapeshift.

Traj took the damage and liked it. Hopes the little buggers burned their tongues on his firey goodness (doesn't actualy happen).

EDIT:
Those swarms are 10x10, right? I don't htink all 4 of them can occupy the same space at once. Might be wrong though.

[afroakuma]

They're 10x10, but they're swarms. They permeate. It's a wonderful thing.

[Keld Denar]

You gonna do anything other than hit me with swarm damage? Your big fatty still has actions, and those guys all hiding in the cloud do too.

[afroakuma]

Well, Fatty gets an AoO against Traj, first off. So that's a tail slap.

Attack - (d20+25)[27], Damage - (2d8+11)[24] and grappled.

If I get away with that, Traj's little stunt is gonna fail.

[Keld Denar]

Sorry, between Punishing Stance and charging, you only needed a 4 or higher to hit Trajy boy, but you rolled a 2. Eat flaming shortswords!

[afroakuma]

Traj does Hit, Hit, Miss, Hit, Miss.

Liam does Hit, Miss, Hit, Miss.

For every hit, a 10 ft. cone of blood sprays out at the attacker. I assume Traj was in Liam's cones; was Liam in Traj's?

Anyway,

Traj:
Blood Damage - (2d10)[16] acid damage
Blood Damage - (2d10)[16] acid damage
Blood Damage - (2d10)[19] acid damage

Liam:
Blood Damage - (2d10)[16] acid damage
Blood Damage - (2d10)[11] acid damage

and as an immediate action, she'll pop another blister. 15 ft. cone, trying to catch as many of them as possible:

Blood Damage - (4d10)[13] acid damage, Reflex half

[Keld Denar]

Naw, Liam is attacking from the south of her (as you look at it) and Traj charged at the west side of her. They are 2 different quadrents of each other.

Also, Traj's attacks only do fire damage (he can't crack the DR) and the fire damage cauterizes the wounds. Thus, the only one who gets splattered is Liam.

Ref1 - (1d20+10)[23]
Ref2 - (1d20+10)[18]

and if she aims it south, she'll hit both Liam and Keld

RefLiam - (1d20+10)[20]
RefKeld - (1d20+9)[21]

Fail saves...now you see why Liam invested in energy protection. He couldn't even dodge a stiff breeze.

Damage taken.

Then what?

[afroakuma]

Naw, Liam is attacking from the south of her (as you look at it) and Traj charged at the west side of her. They are 2 different quadrents of each other.

She's very sad about that.

Also, Traj's attacks only do fire damage (he can't crack the DR) and the fire damage cauterizes the wounds. Thus, the only one who gets splattered is Liam.

Er, no it doesn't. Only negative energy kills that bloated, watery mess.

Tell Traj to savor the pain.

They both failed their saves, so much blissful sizzling comes their way.

My go?

[Keld Denar]

Bah, did you just change it? I could have sworn that fire and acid damage also had that effect. Anyway, Traj's saves

Ref1 - (1d20+21)[29]
Ref2 - (1d20+21)[23]
Ref3 - (1d20+21)[30]

Yup, your turn!

[afroakuma]

She had had acid up there, until I realized that if her blood's acidic, then that's rather illogical. Not to mention they're resistant.

Oh, and there are no saves for the ones he got from hitting her. He takes all of it.

[Keld Denar]

Oh, ok. Sounds good. Keep going, I'm curious to see what this slut can actually do on a full attack :P

Slut.

PS, where the hell would you find a weapon enhancement that inflicts negative energy damage?

[afroakuma]

"Uses negative energy," I believe is the wording.

Weapons that drain levels or HP use negative energy.

[Keld Denar]

Hmmm, only things I can think of off the top of my head include the 9 lives drinker sword (major magic item or minor artifact), the vampiric upgrade from MIC, and any time you cast/channel a Vampiric Touch with a weapon attack such as from a Spellstoring weapon or Arcane Channeling.

Regardless, what else is she gonna do? I'm curious.

[afroakuma]

It's gonna be a while, I'm afraid.

But it will involve a grapple and some claw attacks.

[Keld Denar]

Lets see some claw attacks mang!

[afroakuma]

Alrighty, claws vs. Traj:

Attack - (d20+25)[28], damage - (2d6+11)[19] and Fort save
Attack - (d20+25)[38], damage - (2d6+11)[18] and Fort save

Miniclaws vs. Traj:

Attack - (d20+20)[26], damage - (1d8+5)[12]
Attack - (d20+20)[24], damage - (1d8+5)[10]

and tail vs. Liam

Attack - (d20+20)[24], damage - (2d8+5)[11] and improved grab.

[Keld Denar]

Traj
Miss

Hit
Fort - (1d20+17)[22]

Miss

Miss

Liam
Miss

That it? My turn?