The Dying Earth [OOC]

[Vox Clamantis]

Besides, do you realistically think TS would actually use such an encounter for us after we specifically laid it out? I don't think it would be much of a surprise if we went up against it.

= not serious.

~Gabriel

[Tequila Sunrise]

*Sheepish look* Um...um...can I switch to power prep after all? I want to have Frost Backlash as an option instead of Burning Blade, and Be Gone instead of Glamor Blade, and of course Sloth Strike instead of Blastback Swipe, among other things.

Sure. *Adds to loot pile*

About Glamor Blade...I feel like it should have been a utility power. And that 'glamor' shouldn't be in its name, but whatever. Anyway, I'm going to rule that it actually makes a second Variel. They're both real, and anything that happens to one happens to the other. (So if one gets hit with a status effect, both are effected. You'll roll one save per turn to free both Variels from the effect.) You could use this power as a makeshift teleport power; Variel makes a second Variel and then dismisses the original Variel.

More coming soon...

[Tequila Sunrise]

I hate daylight dumb@ss time.

No short rest yet, so you can use APs and cool powers only if you didn't use 'em already.

Also, a heads-up for you guys: Very soon I'm going to be moving to South Korea (that's the friendly one) to teach English. I haven't bought my ticket yet, but the exodus will probably happen sometime next week. I really want to continue this game, and I'm pretty sure it'll be possible, but there will probably be a hiatus for a few days as I get over jet lag and culture shock...yeah, I know exactly 13 words of Korean. They're gonna love me.

[NecroRebel]

I'm a bit confused. You say that Reed moved far enough that he can get another attack next turn, but Variel and Dolgan haven't gone yet. I think that means that they have to go before I do again, right? I've been waiting for them to go before posting another set of actions (which, depending on how far away she is, will involve me attempting to grab her, moving and using Deft Strike, using Deft Strike and running, using Sly Flourish and running, or moving and using Sly Flourish, roughly in that order of desirability).

Regardless, you're not waiting on me, are you? I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm a bit confused. You say that Reed moved far enough that he can get another attack next turn, but Variel and Dolgan haven't gone yet. I think that means that they have to go before I do again, right? I've been waiting for them to go before posting another set of actions (which, depending on how far away she is, will involve me attempting to grab her, moving and using Deft Strike, using Deft Strike and running, using Sly Flourish and running, or moving and using Sly Flourish, roughly in that order of desirability).

Regardless, you're not waiting on me, are you? I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

I'm waiting for Variel, myself, before posting Dolgan's action.

Grey Wolf

[Tequila Sunrise]

No, I'm not waiting on Reed. A PC will need to move at least 12 hexes on a turn in order to get a second shot next turn. (Sorry if this is a little confusing without the map, but I erased it already. This'll end quickly one way or the other, anyway.)

[Tequila Sunrise]

No, I'm not waiting on Reed. A PC will need to move at least 12 hexes on a turn in order to get a second shot next turn. (Sorry if this is a little confusing without the map, but I erased it already. This'll end quickly one way or the other, anyway.)

[Crucival]

Sorry. Got confused, got busy, then got confused again. I think my actions make some sense though. Two annoyed swordmages attempting to block a tunnel are better than one!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No, I'm not waiting on Reed. A PC will need to move at least 12 hexes on a turn in order to get a second shot next turn. (Sorry if this is a little confusing without the map, but I erased it already. This'll end quickly one way or the other, anyway.)

I'm a tad confused about what is going on without the map, I'll admit. I think I pushed her back and knocked her down with my attack (a sprite wouldn't have much fortitude defence, would it?), which means that Dolgan should be able to get another attack after this one (she'll have to use one movement to get up, and another will place her, at most, 4 spaces beyond Dolgan, close enough he can catch up again). Am I correct? If Dolgan missed, all this doesn't apply, of course.

Grey Wolf

[Tequila Sunrise]

Sorry. Got confused, got busy, then got confused again. I think my actions make some sense though. Two annoyed swordmages attempting to block a tunnel are better than one!

Only one flaw that I see in your plan: Glamor Blade is a standard action, which means that one Variel will be able to reach Ms. Took but won't be able to attack.

I'm a tad confused about what is going on without the map, I'll admit. I think I pushed her back and knocked her down with my attack (a sprite wouldn't have much fortitude defence, would it?), which means that Dolgan should be able to get another attack after this one (she'll have to use one movement to get up, and another will place her, at most, 4 spaces beyond Dolgan, close enough he can catch up again). Am I correct? If Dolgan missed, all this doesn't apply, of course.

Yeah, you definitely knocked her down. At least after we resolve Variel's actions. You might be underestimating Ms. Took's need for speed though. (She's sacrificing standard actions to run and using minor actions to shift.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, you definitely knocked her down. At least after we resolve Variel's actions. You might be underestimating Ms. Took's need for speed though. (She's sacrificing standard actions to run and using minor actions to shift.)

You can use minor actions to shift? How does that work? At any rate, right now, she has to burn one move action gettin on her feet again, so all she has is one move next turn. She moves one more than Dolgan (if she runs, so does he), the same as Variel, and one *less* than Reed. And we are all between her and the exit at this point (since she got knocked back into the cave), so if she moves through us, that's three AoO, and next turn we're close enough for another go.

Grey Wolf

[Crucival]

Hm. How about spending an action point? I'm pretty sure Variel has one left. (He didn't use one during any of the fights before the big demon, so when they hit the milestone, he got a total of 2 AP. He spent one during the big demon encounter, leaving him with one remaining.) He could use it to make a move into the exit, putting two Variels between Ms. Took and her escape.

Again, the point isn't to attack her. The point is to make it impossible for her to leave so he can use his intimidate skill to talk her into sharing why she's really there. Variel doesn't want to hurt another fey, dammit! He just also doesn't want her to run away with the seed for the Tree of Destroying The World With Gnarly Roots.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hm. How about spending an action point? I'm pretty sure Variel has one left. (He didn't use one during any of the fights before the big demon, so when they hit the milestone, he got a total of 2 AP. He spent one during the big demon encounter, leaving him with one remaining.) He could use it to make a move into the exit, putting two Variels between Ms. Took and her escape.

Again, the point isn't to attack her. The point is to make it impossible for her to leave so he can use his intimidate skill to talk her into sharing why she's really there. Variel doesn't want to hurt another fey, dammit! He just also doesn't want her to run away with the seed for the Tree of Destroying The World With Gnarly Roots.

You needn't use the action point if you don't want to attack: move to get into postion, then standard action to double yourself and block the exit. Right now, she would have to get through us to leave, which would mean plenty of AoOs for free.

Oh, and by my count, the big demons was our 4th encounter since we woke up, so we got an extra action point at the end of it, so we are up to three, minus whichever we have used.

Grey Wolf

[NecroRebel]

You needn't use the action point if you don't want to attack: move to get into postion, then standard action to double yourself and block the exit. Right now, she would have to get through us to leave, which would mean plenty of AoOs for free.

Oh, and by my count, the big demons was our 4th encounter since we woke up, so we got an extra action point at the end of it, so we are up to three, minus whichever we have used.

Grey Wolf

Um. Were there 4? I thought it was 1. Pale Men ambush from the boats, 2. Pale Men/Lobsters guarding lair, 3. Demon/Lobsters/Hearts in the lair.

Not that it matters; I already asked about action points/encounter powers and TS said that we haven't taken a short rest since the demon fight, so we can't use another regardless of how many we have left. It's why I was 'only' able to move 21 instead of my maximum 1-turn dash, 41 (That takes From the Shadows, hitting with FtS, running, then an action point to double run, but still neat).

[Vox Clamantis]

I can teleport a goodly ways...but Laertius doesn't actually think they should be chasing or hindering her. She hasn't hurt them in any way, so any use of force would (in his opinion) be not only unjustified, but impolite.

~Gabriel

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Um. Were there 4? I thought it was 1. Pale Men ambush from the boats, 2. Pale Men/Lobsters guarding lair, 3. Demon/Lobsters/Hearts in the lair.

Not that it matters; I already asked about action points/encounter powers and TS said that we haven't taken a short rest since the demon fight, so we can't use another regardless of how many we have left. It's why I was 'only' able to move 21 instead of my maximum 1-turn dash, 41 (That takes From the Shadows, hitting with FtS, running, then an action point to double run, but still neat).

I asked Tequila about it, and the skill challenges count as encounter. Stands to reason, since that there are abilities that allow action points used to reroll skill rolls, not just get extra actions. But you are right, since we didn't get a breather, those of us that used an action point against the big demon can't use another. Pity in more ways than one, because Dolgan really wants to use his Solar Wrath to check if this sprite really is one...

Grey Woolf

[NecroRebel]

I can teleport a goodly ways...but Laertius doesn't actually think they should be chasing or hindering her. She hasn't hurt them in any way, so any use of force would (in his opinion) be not only unjustified, but impolite.

~Gabriel

I think Reed would've been fine with it if she had just taken the seed and walked out without saying anything, since he was distracted by the shinies and wouldn't have realized she hadn't given them their reward yet (...because I forgot about the reward OOC until earlier today... ), but since she called attention to the fact that she was doing something she shouldn't be per the characters' agreement, she's getting attacked.

Besides, breaking our deal was pretty unjustified and impolite, wasn't it?

[Vox Clamantis]

Besides, breaking our deal was pretty unjustified and impolite, wasn't it?

Not in any way comparable to the use of violence.

~Gabriel

[NecroRebel]

Not in any way comparable to the use of violence.

~Gabriel

That's why we're trying to subdue her rather than killing her. It's just not possible, by the rules, to do without using powers that would be deadly.

Also, keep in mind that as far as our characters are concerned, they just met this woman, what, 20 minutes ago? Less? As far as they know, she could be more dangerous than anything they've yet fought, particularly if she got her hands on what may well be a weapon.

...I know, we're kinda metagaming to think we should be stopping her, but at the same time, IC we haven't known her long enough to build up much trust, she apparently randomly came upon us, many miles from where what she sought was, followed us out of sight all those miles, and then, immediately after we were ambushed (during which she gave no aid), she appeared and asked us to risk our lives for a reward that is now not apparently forthcoming. Given all that, she's probably less trustworthy than the creatures we just slew, whether or not she has reason to distrust us as well.

We all seem to be professional adventurers/heroes, but that also means that we've all dealt with people in the wilds who aren't what they seem. Survivors in our lines of work probably fight at the first sign of betrayal; it's only the heroes who actually set out to ask questions later.

[Crucival]

So, she outright said that she was lying to us, retrieved an object which two characters confirmed to be covered in an illusion, and said something mysterious about it not being what she claimed.

If she had just said "I lied to you before, it's actually an X and I thought you wouldn't get it otherwise" Variel might not have cared because he likes facts. Similarly, if she had simply walked out with it as if there was nothing wrong, or acted surprised at it being illusion-wrapped, he might've just let it go.

Also, he's not attacking her, unlike the hyper-violent Reed and Dolgan. He just wanted to keep her from leaving until he could be sure that she wasn't going to do anything untoward with the seed.

But, regardless, she went with looking guilty, "apologizing" for lying, acknowledging that the seed was not what she had said, and then turning invisible and attempting to flee. Sorry, but that totally screams "I just tricked you foolish heroes into finding the seed of the Armageddon Tree for me" to me, and makes Variel more than a mite suspicious.

In a totally non-metagamey way, right?

[Vox Clamantis]

Looking at this from her point of view, I've just met four people out on the wilderness who agreed to help me in exchange for important information. These casually violent individuals then proceeded to massacre a bunch of relatively helpless supernatural creatures. 'Relatively helpless supernatural creature' sounds a lot like 'unarmed female sprite out alone in the world.' I would be extremely uneasy around these people, to say the very least.

Laertius, who is himself disinclined to trust anyone, would never fault her for thinking the worst of him. He might be upset that she wasn't going to give up her information, but he'd never resort to violence over it. Man, as they say, carries his civilization with him. I don't think Laertius is really going to trust the other members of the group as readily from here on out.

~Gabriel

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Looking at this from her point of view, I've just met four people out on the wilderness who agreed to help me in exchange for important information. These casually violent individuals then proceeded to massacre a bunch of relatively helpless supernatural creatures. 'Relatively helpless supernatural creature' sounds a lot like 'unarmed female sprite out alone in the world.' I would be extremely uneasy around these people, to say the very least.

Laertius, who is himself disinclined to trust anyone, would never fault her for thinking the worst of him. He might be upset that she wasn't going to give up her information, but he'd never resort to violence over it. Man, as they say, carries his civilization with him. I don't think Laertius is really going to trust the other members of the group as readily from here on out.

~Gabriel

Err... no, from her point of view, she has been following a group of people to make sure she could lie and trick them into recovering an object she wants that she knows they wouldn't recover if she was honest with them.

Now, we (characters/players) do not know what this object is, but it is going to be central to the morality argument, and there is two possibilities:

1) The object is important but innocuous. For example, the keys to her tree, with an embarrasing key-ring of her S.O. posing with only a couple of leaves in strategic place. In this situation, the use of violence is, I agree, unwarranted.

2) The object in important, and dangerous. For example, the egg of a world-eating insect. In this case, violence is perfectly acceptable, since she can obviously can no longer be trusted to do what is right with such an object, after having demonstrated her desire to cheat, lie and steal.

(I'm going to skip the "uninportant object" line for obvious reasons: one does not lie about unimportant objects)

The bottom line is that she removed our ability to make a moral decision. Would we have helped her to recover the object if she had told us what it really is? Evidence seems to sugest we would have not. Thus, until such time as we *can* decide if that object should be in her hands, stopping her is the only way. And notice we hardly went directly to charging at her: we are giving her every opportunity to explain her actions and be civilised. Every time she refuses, she strengthens the 2nd possibility.

Also, predicting a possible counter-argument, "why should we be the ones to decide if keeping the object is good", three things:

1) Dolgan is a priest. He makes moral decisions as part of his job/calling (others may have similar arguments).
2) We acted in good faith, and we might have let her take the object regardless, but our decision-making was removed under false pretenses.
3) She lied.

Now, I'm not going to even start to pretend all this went through Dolgan's head. Right now is pumped full of adrenaline and just saw someone stealing from him, so he is acting on a basic instinct: "she lied, she's taking that thing, which is not a seed, I need time to think about it, I better stop her so I have that time"

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf

Edit: by the way, I didn't go into the whole "massacre a bunch of relatively helpless supernatural creatures" because it is inmaterial to my argument, but I still want to say: these are demons, and we know they are so because they are paralised by Dolgan's power. The fact that we are much better fighters than them is irrelevant. You are probably refering to us killing the one in the walls as the massacre part, but since she lied to us before we even got to that part, introducing that argument into the morality of the situation is specious.

Also, obviously, but just in case, everything expressed here is in my opinion, as filtered through Dolgan's view point.

GW

[Tequila Sunrise]

I think it's very interesting that the most cynical character of the party is the one who doesn't want to attack or subdue her.

...an embarrasing key-ring of her S.O. posing with only a couple of leaves in strategic place.

This discussion cracks me up. Please continue.

[NecroRebel]

It did seem a bit odd to me that the suspicious tiefling would be the most apparently-trusting of all of us. I felt it IC for Reed to a) be on a hair trigger for betrayal, given his line of work and heritage, b) be unwilling to just let someone leave without fulfilling their end of a deal, and c) be very suspicious of someone who claimed to be a liar.

I agree with Grey_Wolf, though; she followed us through the wilderness specifically so that she could see if she could manipulate us into killing the guardians of what she sought.

It may be, of course, that the seed is something harmless overall and that we would've helped her if merely asked, though as she met us in the wilds she was probably wise not to just tell us what it is. Meeting random people in the wilderness is, as I implied before, an extremely dangerous prospect when there's the possibility of carnivorous shapeshifters or vicious bandits about. They might have decided to take her precious thing, which could for all we know be a fairy egg or otherwise her children in disguise, lying about what it is could have been beneficial.

However, it's probably unlikely that our characters would decide that she was right to distrust us. Most people get very insulted if you say that you don't trust them, and that tends to color their reactions. It may not justify the party's actions, but it does help explain them.



As to the line about 'relatively harmless supernatural beings,' there are a few things to pay attention to. First, we haven't yet destroyed any of the immobile hearts AFAIK. The mobile creatures were, from what I've gathered of Chaos Beasts, the rough equivalent of a pride of man-eating lions: they hunt sapient beings preferentially, they attack on sight with little to no provocation, and are just generally extremely dangerous. It probably isn't a bad thing in most people's eyes to protect oneself when attacked, and probably is a good thing to prevent attacks on who-knows-how-many other people, and as everyone probably knows, these creatures would attack others given the chance. Destroying them is something even the most selfish and cruel mortal or immortal would do given the chance simply because they are dangerous to anyone who comes near.

[Crucival]

Corrolary to this whole line of argument: She tricked the party, and they are now responsible for anything she is able to do with the object she now possesses.

If she becomes a world-threatening villain, it is because we empowered her to do so.

If she is able to embarrass her S.O. using fig-leaf pictures...and thus depose a rightful, benevolent ruler and replace him with a tyrant (see what I did there?) then it is because we gave her the chance.

So for all this talk about who's using violence for what, it's a question of who actually cares about the consequences of her deception. Laertius doesn't want to push her on the issue because he feels that she's justified in her mistrust, and I understand that. But saying "Why would she trust us in the first place? It's no more than I would do, so let her go" is the first step on a slippery slope towards apathy and a potentially dangerous lack of inquisitive drive.

Let me also add to this line of thought one other important piece of information: We are talking about a magical artifact, protected by deformed, powerful beings of pure hate and destruction. That alone should give the characters pause, when they discover that it is encrusted with illusions. You don't hide a bottle opener in a chaos hive.

[Tequila Sunrise]

How is Dolgan getting a +21 Insight? His base is +11 and if he's using Discern Lies it should be at least +25, depending on the total of his Religion check.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How is Dolgan getting a +21 Insight? His base is +11 and if he's using Discern Lies it should be at least +25, depending on the total of his Religion check.

Yeah, that's my mistake, sorry. I used my passive insight value as the bonus. It should be +11 - so only 30 to see if she's lying.

Grey Wolf

[Vox Clamantis]

Laertius is intensely suspicious and untrusting, but reneging on a bargain isn't the sort of thing he'd resort to violence over. He's no pacifist, but it would go completely against his nature to attack a defenseless female regardless of her social transgressions (which breaking a bargain falls under).

We'd already agreed to let her have the seed, so the 'what if it's evil' argument holds no water unless you were intending to go back on our word.

But I don't suppose any of this really matters.

~Gabriel

[Crucival]

....one last comment, before I give up on this argument.

The PCs agreed to let her keep the seed back when they thought they knew what it was. A seed for a particular brand of tree, which has beneficial alchemical properties. But between the illusion they detected and the "Sorry that I was lying to you, gonna go invisible and run off now!," she made it clear that the seed was not what the PCs were told. I don't think that the party said "you get to keep the seed, I don't care what it is."

I think, perhaps, this doesn't bother you because you assume the deception is a natural and understandable precaution in an untrustworthy situation. I think you also put a greater negative value on violence, and make certain assumptions about Ms. Took's intentions and vulnerability.

I don't, personally, care about the bargain, as much as I care about her lying about the object of the quest. Plenty of adventurers get suckered with "Defeat the evil demon--whoops, he's actually the guardian of the Sealed Evil in a Can that you just released" or "fetch this object that will save the world--whoops, that's actually the last piece of the weapon I need to destroy it." It wasn't a matter of planning to go back on the bargain, it was a matter of "Suddenly, I realized I had no idea what the hell I had just accomplished, or why, or for what side, because many of my fundamental assumptions were challenged/wrong."


ANYWAY!!! I think you have a valid point about us overreacting, but I also think that we have some good points about why Ms. Took's behavior is worryingly deceptive. But we're kinda stuck with what happened, now.

While these arguments are interesting, I refer you to this as an example of why they might eventually become detrimental to our collective health.

[Tequila Sunrise]

If Dolgan and Variel are satisfied with the Took situation, we can move on to the loot...