Relationship Woes and Advice, The Seventh Saga

[Syka]

Well...After the confession thread, I saw way too many "what do I do in this situation" threads popping up, so here is one nice compendium. Come here to post questions about how to approach the opposite sex, the dread first date and, should you be in a relationship already and fairly certain they don't read Giant, a place to complain/seek advice about a current flame.

If you'd rather not make it public, I will compile a list in this thread of people who will accept PM's to give advice.

The biggest bit of advice I've seen bandied around is the truest- no matter what else is true about the situation, always be yourself. It's no good to act like someone else, because eventually the true you will come out and the other person will not be happy you hid that from them.

Rules Of Relationships:
#1- Communicate. If you can't talk with your partner, it's probably not going to work.

#2- Be yourself. Admittedly, if you have some really bad habits you should probably try to change them, but be honest about who you are. No one wants to find out they were loving a lie, and no one likes to live a lie (...well, normally).

#3- Accept your partner. In mine, and other people's, experience you have to be able to accept your partner as they are, because they probably won't be able to change. Also, don't change drastically for someone. I've tried it, my friends have tried it, it doesn't work and it doesn't end pretty.

#4- Hints. Do. Not. Work. Or they might, but the chance of that happening is limited. Some people are like me and just utterly oblivious unless it is blatantly stated, others are (also like me) and don't want to assume, and yet others don't care. You won't know which they belong to unless you actually spell out your intentions and/or feelings. I would consider this a corrolery to Rule #1 except that it comes up so often. Do NOT assume someone should know something from hints. Hints, by nature, are subtle. Clue Bats/Crow Bars/Mack Trucks are not. Try hitting them with one of those. ;) (No, not literally. I mean be upfront if you are trying to get someone to know something.)

Private Advice Givers:
Eh, I'm pretty sure any regular has an open PM box for you.


RULES. YOU READ THESE.
-Anything of a sexual nature, please PM to either myself or one of the regular advice givers. If you just want general opinions post something like: "I have this problem, but it is not board appropriate. Could one of you guys PM me?" I know from experience that you will in fact get help.

-KEEP IT NICE. Disagreements are bound to happen, but please don't be rude.

-Joking is all fun and games, within reasons. Please do not get derogatory.

I decided to put this up because, evidently, it was not apparent that these should be followed. I do not want this thread to be scrubbed again, and we were blessed to get it back.

Cheers,
Syka

[Pyrian]

It looks like the banners are all dead links.

[Syka]

OK, I'll take them down I guess. If Felix wants to repost them, that'd be awesome.

Cheers~

[skywalker]

Ok, I'm going to respond here to the outpouring of advice I received, since I know kung fu tab fu...

Some statements that jumped out at me:

1. That's a ridiculous situation.
2. Why did she even need a date-date in order to go and dance at all? One can dance with friends without taking someone as a date, yes? Or even just go with her girlfriends and dance with thems as aren't attached at the pelvis to boytoys for the entirety of the dance.

3. Yeah, she's been silly, but she's probably more defensive about you seeming to be making her feel bad about having fun than actually having any ill intent.
4. Grinding is always sexual due to the fact that the genitals are stimulated, most especially in the male. If it's not all but frottage, it ain't grinding. And that's a no-no that should have been laid down from the get-go and communicated about clearly if it was to be an issue.

5. So yeah, she's defensive, you both failed to communicate about what would and would not be happening due to her dancing with others, you're upset...

It's not exactly a "go without a date" type of dance. It's sort of like prom, you can go without a date, but it is socially less acceptable.

I'm with you about the "it's always sexual" thing. She claims she can demonstrate to me the sort of non-sexual grinding that took place. We'll see. She admitted that it is, at the very least, always suggestive.

I really didn't know I had a choice in the matter of her dancing. She asked me if I would be ok with her taking him to the Sadie Hawkins dance (Christ that school has a lot of dances), and I said yes, as much as I was ok with her taking him to this dance, and the dancing that went on. I had assumed she knew I wasn't ok with it, because I thought it had come up as an issue in the past. Apparently, she hadn't. I understand somewhat better where the defensive-ness is coming from. She thought it strange I had picked now to suddenly start caring about it.

Serp:She oddly drew the same comparison, that a tango would be more worrisome. I feel, personally, that there are reasons to tango besides the sexual element, all the steps, etc. Grinding, by contrast, has no attractive elements besides the sex and the ease of the dance. Pelvises/organs were definitely touching in this example.

Ranna:She said she would be fine with this, and my best friend actually recommended the same course of action. I find myself not wanting to. I also remember what happened the last time she told me she was ok with something I suspected she wasn't (it was bad).

xPx:It's not that I worried, just that I find it inappropriate and don't want my girlfriend doing it.

To all, I have an update, I called her today and we talked some more about it, she said she was prepared to tell whoever her date to this next dance was that that was not ok. She didn't like it, but she was prepared. I explained to her that I don't even like her going to dances with other guys at all, and I think I'm already making that and other compromises in our relationship, and so I didn't think asking her to not dance in one specific way was a large thing to ask for. She agreed. She also asked me to prom, which I declined.

Thanks for the advice, guys.

[Syka]

So...why can't you go to the dances with her? I know at least at schools around here you could still go even if you weren't a student (and, I'm assuming, didn't look like you were like 40 or something). If you are only a year or two off, you'd still have been able to go here. I know a number of people dating above/below them that still got to go to dances with their SO's.

[skywalker]

So...why can't you go to the dances with her? I know at least at schools around here you could still go even if you weren't a student (and, I'm assuming, didn't look like you were like 40 or something). If you are only a year or two off, you'd still have been able to go here. I know a number of people dating above/below them that still got to go to dances with their SO's.

Students are allowed to take dates from outside the school to Winter Formal and to Prom, altho in my day there was (and I think there still is) a form involving the signature of the principal of the date's school. Who the hell would I get the signature of, the dean of my college? That's just a comment on the absurdity of my situation.

This here Sadie Hawkins that she wants to take him to, no, I cannot attend. My school had some (a lot) of trouble with students drinking, outside guests not behaving properly, etc, and so now dances have much stricter regulations compared to when I was in my first two years there.

Beyond the regulations, I don't really want to go to Winter Formal/Prom. She thought she was taking me to Prom last year, which is why her eventual date now has a shirt that is far too large for him. But I am (obviously) well known to her classmates, given that I was a senior when they were freshmen. And it could turn out one of two ways. They could remember me as the cool guy they thought I was when I was a senior (seriously, those kids love me), or they could see me as the creepy college guy hanging around at a high school dance. I just don't want to chance that 2nd one, because frankly, we always classified guys who did that as the second, not the first. Now, I'm not sure it was ever a graduate doing that, but I still don't want to be that creep.

[Felixaar]

OK, I'll take them down I guess. If Felix wants to repost them, that'd be awesome.

Damn, that would be awesome.

I'll do me best...

Skywalker, I think I should start of by saying that theres a problem with the world if there is a dance known as "Grinding." Especially if it's acceptable at a school dance.

Anyway... I suppose you just need to see what happens as time goes on. If it's really that big a difference between you, then you have things you need to consider. Since it's a freedom you don't want, maybe you should trade it in for a different freedom?

I dunno mate. You've done the good thing and talked to her about it, if she refuses to compromise then I guess you have to take stock of how big an issue it is and make your choice from there.

[Edge of Dreams]

going to be as concise as I can here, maybe oversimlifying a few of the situations, but I want to give an overview, not details.

Spoiler

Show

Timeline:
First girlfriend, high school through first year of college, 2 and a half years, barely got up to kissing, boy were we both repressed/scared/whatever.

Second year of college - spent some time trying not to think about dating, then had my first experiences with "sorry I'm busy" type excuses and finding out a girl I'm interested in is already taken.

Start of third year of college - second "girlfriend" if you can call her that, only free one day a week to hang out, and after a couple months of taking it slow, told me she wasn't going to kiss anyone until she's engaged. Yeah, that wasn't going to work for me.

Second half of third year of college through now, midway through fourth year: 1) First date, then sorry, old boyfriend is back. 2)Seriously interested in girl, but she's just gotten out of a long relationship. After spending a significant amount of time around her, I find out she's finally gotten together with another guy (yes, she knew I was interested). Says I was "too much like her last boyfriend". 3) get to pseudo-first-date, then inquire about future dating, she's not interested. 4) Ask out friend I've known for a year or so. After first date she informs me that she's so busy with school that she's happy to be single right now (why didn't you tell me sooner? grr arg). A few months later, we end up snogging on a couch after a party - my first french kiss and first serious make-out, as far as I've gotten with a girl even up to today. 5) Meet girl at folk dance, go out on one date, then she's so busy we'll pretty much never get to hang out again for a couple months. Never heard back from her (not that I tried that hard after hearing that). 6) Meet random girl, get to *Second* date, then she gives me a "just friends" email. 7) Finally decide to stop putting up with mixed signals from close female friend and tell her that I'm interested if she is. She turns me down, apparently afraid she'll "walk all over me" and "hurt me". She's a really dominant type, and I'm pretty passive, so I explained that I didn't mind that dynamic. She still says no.

During this time there were also at least a couple girls who turned out to not be single or lived too far away or some other coincidence that stopped me from trying to get past the first conversation.

So, I am incredibly frustrated by the *seven* rejections I have gotten over the last year. I'm also rather frustrated by how little I've gotten to experience in the physical side of relationships. Now, I'm a fairly conservative romantic idealist who was raised Christian, but regardless of whether I'm putting off sex 'til mairrage, I'd still like to have a little fun along the way.

Part of my brain is screaming "Love me!" I want *someone* to hang out with, cuddle with, share my secrets with. The other part of my brain, of course, is screaming "I wanna get laid!" This is all adding up to put me in a serious funk, and it's starting to seriously affect my ability to deal with just normal life.

I'm an outgoing, intelligent, decent-looking guy. I have no problem with confidence - I can start a conversation with almost anyone, and friends joke that I flirt with every girl I meet. Somehow, I can get first dates, no problem, but nothing ever goes past that. One of my friends even said "You're a great fisherman, your problem is that you're all catch-and-release".

All in all... WTF?
Help, please?

[Pyrian]

Ooof, Edge. Well, it could be just a string of bad luck. More likely, you're doing something wrong, but guessing what from my perspective would be like playing Minesweeper on expert mode except without the little numbers - how the heck would I know? I guess all I can suggest is running down Serpentine's list, but I think you've already got it reasonably covered.

Serpentine's famous list: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=483

I think I should start of by saying that theres a problem with the world if there is a dance known as "Grinding."

Gah, you people want to take all the fun out of life. ...Hell, grinding's the best thing I got last year. So who the hell am I to be giving relationship advice!? ...Sigh.

[Serpentine]

Serpentine's famous list: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=483[/COLOR]

Whee, I's famous!

Wait... It isn't just famous cuz I keep pointing people to it, is it?

[Edge of Dreams]

Whee, I's famous!

Wait... It isn't just famous cuz I keep pointing people to it, is it?

Nah, it's actually a pretty good basic list. Thanks for the link, Pyrian.

I don't think any of that is really my problem, though. I mean, I'm not perfect running down the whole list, but nothing stands out to me that would be a consistent major turn off to every single one of my past dates. I mean, I've had dates with girls who already knew me for quite a while, so I can't be too inherently disgusting, right?

[Serpentine]

Well, lets see now...
You have no problem asking people out, obviously. And they're often quite willing to go on at least one date, right? Three possibilities:
1. Bad luck. It could just be that you happen to keep catching these girls at just the wrong time. All you can do with that is try not to let it get to you and keep on trying.
2. There's something wrong with your first dates. What do you do, or have you done? Do you come on too strong, maybe? Too light? Are they too formal, or too casual? How does conversation go?
3. You fail at follow-up. Looking at some of your stories, you seem to bail pretty quickly, at the very first sign of difficulty (Second college year, 4)), effort (5)) or some issue (Start of 3rd year (though you did well to hold out for months)). If you're really interested in someone, try to go to that effort after the first date. Maybe you just haven't met the person you're that into.

[xPANCAKEx]

Edge - from reading it i'd be more inclined to ask more into your first date manners: Whats your mindset going into the first date? How do you act? Whats your body language like?

And a the toughest question of all (and you really have to be honest with yourself here, after reading what you said in your original post) - are you desperate?

relatedly: Being too laid back can across as either eager to please or too scared to say no. After your response to your dominant friend saying you wouldn't mind it if she walked all over you (as that is effectively what you said), i'd be inclined to say the former. Theres a massive difference between being laid back and being a push over, so make sure if you have boundries you state them and stick to them.

stating the obvious here, so i don't neccisarily know if it applies, or if you already know:
if you're too intense/upfront/latched-on on the first date then its a no-go. A first date is all about showing the other person they can have a good time around you in a romantic setting, NOT act as an interview to see if the other person is compatible to be your life partner.

[Coidzor]

You ever have moments where the loneliness just comes upon you and bites and claws and tears tatters in your Self?

I'm not quite sure what it is, but I think the nostalgia of the rain-water and the sound of the falling tree limbs in the ice is serving as a trigger.

Sliding in and out of lucidity. *phew* It just passed but I still feel sick from it in the pit of my stomache.

Something about being up when everyone and everything else with half a brain has long since passed out if nothing else. Just makes me lonely and think of her. Yearn, even. Bleh.

I need someone to smack me upside the head.

V: I always wonder how to make myself who I want to be... or at least feel I should be instead of the shell that displeases me and those around me.

Haven't figured it out yet, but I seem to be muddling through things ok for the most part.

[Ichneumon]

I just read Serpentine's list, it completely destroyed my self-confidence.

so much that I do wrong.... so much....

[Serpentine]

Hey, it's Icky! =D
Hm. That's not... quite the outcome I was looking for with that... Don't forget, they're not all "right/wrong" questions. I just wanted it to be a starting-point for introspection and assessing how you come across to other people, maybe a trigger for improvement.
Just make yourself, who you want to be =/

[Quincunx]

[snipped]. . .I need someone to smack me upside the head.

V: I always wonder how to make myself who I want to be... or at least feel I should be instead of the shell that displeases me and those around me.

Haven't figured it out yet, but I seem to be muddling through things ok for the most part.

Going to loop together the last few days' worth of posts here, since I've had to catch up.

Creeping out someone who ought to be a peer in skeeviness, and that over the Internet where only the words count, hints that something is not OK. Getting a restraining order laid against you screams that your interpersonal relations are not OK. Earlier, in order to soften the blows and allow for the ambiguity of the 'net, I hinted that both your girl troubles might've been the girl's fault. I retract that. Get yourself to a counselor. Have someone who can see you in real life, in totality, figure out what's intimidating others.

[Gray Jester]

I just read Serpentine's list, it completely destroyed my self-confidence.

so much that I do wrong.... so much....

Don't worry, we all have to start somewhere. And that list, Serp, is pretty impressive. I only skimmed it last time, this time I read it through fully: it's pretty accurate for both genders, while still being vague enough that it's applicable. There are some gender specific things that could be added under "hygiene", which would change it more to "health/hygiene", but they aren't absolutely necessary.

Fortunately for many guys, you don't have to do -every last thing- on that list: usually basic hygiene (teeth, deodorant, washing up), the basic social skills one (knowing when to leave/stay, ability to converse), and the more basic style ones (look in Men's fashion magazines/websites, they exist and are wonderful resources*). Of course, the more you have going for you, the greater your chances are. Furthermore, most people can practice almost every thing on that list, and often more then one at a time.

*Just make sure you don't just copy it, and try to find a model with similar looks to yours. Modify the actual look slightly, but keep in mind things like fit, lines on the clothing, etc.

[Serpentine]

Thanks As I say at the start of it, I'm always open to suggestions for things to add to it.

[Keinnicht]

I just read Serpentine's list, it completely destroyed my self-confidence.

so much that I do wrong.... so much....

Really? My response was that I do almost everything on that list and people still aren't interested in me.

I by the way, is anyone else having problems with network timeouts on this site?

[Sir_Norbert]

o (girls only) Do you shave your armpits regularly?
• This would be one of those “some like it, some hate it” ones.
o Do you shave your legs regularly?

Surely a line "This would too" or something like that needs to be added here.

[Serpentine]

Well, I said right at the start that "there are several items that may not be clear-cut, that may be totally repulsive to one person and a huge turn-on to another", and on the line you specify, I say "this would be one of those". See your point, but if I did that for every single one of those...

[Gray Jester]

Really? My response was that I do almost everything on that list and people still aren't interested in me.

Serpentine's list is good for self image and being tolerable, and it's honest: if you don't meet a majority of those, your chances with girls are cut by a great deal. Some people tolerate the things listed, but only very rarely are they considered -appealing-. If you meet most of them, pat yourself on the back.

However, there are more things in attraction then just that. For instance, is your conversation engaging and emotionally stimulating? (Emotional stimulation is pretty key, as I understand it. People like people who make them feel.) Do you come across as confident, or arrogant? (I come across as arrogant, but I try to balance that with humor. I'm working on the humility thing.) There's a notable difference between "I'd spend time with that person because they aren't gross" and "I'd date that person because I like them."

Serp, if you wouldn't object, I'd like to change your list of negatives into a list of positive steps to take, combining like ones as needed and cutting it down into a manageable list of things people can do, instead of a checkup list.

[Serpentine]

Mmmm... You can if you want. However, it was intended as a guide to looking at yourself and the manner in which you present yourself rather than a guide to doing anything, and it was also more about not repelling people rather than specifically attracting them. More "think about whether you're doing anything to turn people off", rather than the "do this to turn people on" I think you're after, y'know? But yeah, if you think it'd be useful, go ahead. I just like to... be general and have people... think about their situation and what they can come up with themselves to fix their own situation, or something like that.
Anyway... It's not all negative, is it? I mean, there's "Do you have decent manners?" and stuff...

edit: I just figured it out. I don't feel qualified to tell people what to do. If you tell them to do something, there's too much chance that it'll be completely wrong. If you get them to think about their own situation, then they can come up with a solution tailor-made to their circumstances, with an added bonus of low responsibility on your behalf.
Conclusion: I'm too unsure of myself to give direct advice

[sktarq]

......I'm an outgoing, intelligent, decent-looking guy. I have no problem with confidence - I can start a conversation with almost anyone, and friends joke that I flirt with every girl I meet. Somehow, I can get first dates, no problem, but nothing ever goes past that. One of my friends even said "You're a great fisherman, your problem is that you're all catch-and-release".

All in all... WTF?
Help, please?

Okay...ever thought you may be asking the wrong kind of girl on those first dates? Really. You seem to be attracted to girls who are so busy they don't have time for you....not a set-up for a win, eh? There is always frat row type parties for the "wanna get laid" part which may well help you with the air you give off on your dates in trying to actually keep a GF.
Really this is just a shot at that little darker region under the blindfold of the short post/internet but best of luck.

[Coidzor]

Get yourself to a counselor. Have someone who can see you in real life, in totality, figure out what's intimidating others.

I have good news, everyone! I am. Still no real indication of what it is.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Some items of Serpentine's list are ambiguous; I recall a question about showing off one's intellect. While this can be seen as boorish and arrogant, being unafraid of your own intellect shows confidence and, obviously, intellect. It treads a rather fine line. Some, like smoking or shaving, are entirely dependant upon the person cited.

[Serpentine]

That's true. However, I wasn't just talking about being intelligent and not being afraid of showing it, I meant going out of your way to make sure that everyone knows how clever you are, leaping in ahead of everyone else to answer a question, belittling people for errors, etc.
And meh, it's allowed to be ambiguous. It's that sort of a list *shrug*

[Zeful]

Serpentine's famous list: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=483

According to this I am doing better than I thought in the area of Social skills than I thought (with about 50% of them), though I almost completely failed the Aesthetics portion (a majority of "I don't knows" and "nos"), of course much of that I can't improve on without becoming very uncomfortable very quickly (I have no friends so would have to ask my mom, or a clerk about clothes that suit me, and that ain't happening). Though I'm curious as to what an "Unusual lack of piercings" means, there are a lot of people that don't get piercings at all (I don't have any because I don't think I'd find a pair that would suit me and I'm horribly indecisive).

[Felixaar]

Gah, you people want to take all the fun out of life. ...Hell, grinding's the best thing I got last year.

Ohh, nothing wrong with grinding persay, but calling it a dance is kind of like referring to my compost heap as a work of art.

Edge, I think you might just be dating the wrong girls. You're looking for something a bit more long term, where these ones seem to be the mess around and then ignore you type. It can appear attractive from the outside, but blech, not a good idea in the end. Try going for some girls you wouldn't go for normally, maybe? Or try becoming friends with girls first, and getting to know them before anything else? Or maybe you should try a break from relationships for a while, just to see what happens and tempt fate? Best of luck, mate.

Coid, start hanging out with people who don't pass out quite so fast. Seriously though, I don't think I can give you any better advice than try to move on, time heals all wounds, etc. Take it easy, pal.

Opinions: How much right do I have to question the life choices of my friends?