Relationship Woes and Advice, The Seventh Saga

[Felixaar]

^: Yush... Also, the best candy too.

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[Coidzor]

^: That's because I don't keep my candy in my trunk... Don't own a car after all.

The best candy's under my bed...

Right. Where you're from. What I don't get is why people are surprised that their colloquiallisms aren't universal. Especially since non-Americans continually berate us yanks for expecting the rest of the world to automatically know all of our slang.

*goes to google Kath and Kim*

It just goes to show that we're less different than we like to think. ...I'm kinda curious what that means as well. it seems slightly misogynistic in origin from the names used. Unless there is a male variant of Kath...

V: Ah, but what's it mean in that context?

...It's possible to revert to dependent status after having attained independent status?

[Serpentine]

Ahh British Commonlaw.... What would we do without you and your term common law marriage to describe those sorts of situations?

It's actually "defacto marriage" here. Which I have to go and tell Centrelink I was in for a year, AGAIN, so I can be considered independent

*goes to google Kath and Kim*

For the love of all that is good and clever, do not look up the American version. Okay, the US has done some really good stuff... but there are very, very few US remakes of other nations' stuff that isn't truly terrible and a disgrace to the original and whoever gave them the damn licence
(...not that I actually liked the original Kath and Kim all that much <.< It's just that from what I've heard of the Americanised remake, it's lost whatever point it had and is even more mindless and drivel-like than it was to start with)

Oh, and I guess I didn't realise that "pash" was so Aus-specific, or at least that it hasn't been heard in other places. My sister uses it a fair bit...

[Klose_the_Sith]

Why are people surprised by this?

It's in such wide usage (at least amongst some people apparently )

[averagejoe]

Okay, the US has done some really good stuff... but there are very, very few US remakes of other nations' stuff that isn't truly terrible and a disgrace to the original and whoever gave them the damn licence

I respectfully disagree.

Warning: language.

[Phaedra]

Ahh British Commonlaw.... What would we do without you and your term common law marriage to describe those sorts of situations?

Must... supress... legal geekiness...

GAH!

There's no such thing as common law marriage in English Law. Hasn't been since the 19th Century.

...

I feel better now.

[Coidzor]

...*goes to reread post to see what the problem is*

...Did... Did you think that I thought that said term was still in use in jurisprudence in some legally binding capacity? and that it mattered that I did or did not?

[Phaedra]

Oh no, I know the term's still used and you didn't mean it was legally binding. It just irritates me. And pretty much everyone else who ever studied family law and had that drilled into them. It's just seen as a horribly misleading term among lawyers and the proliferation of the term does actually cause problems with people who think it creates some kind of legal status.

It's more like, um, misusing a scientific term around a scientist. Or something. Yeah.

It's kinda a pet hate.

[averagejoe]

It's more like, um, misusing a scientific term around a scientist. Or something. Yeah.

If we did then we would be commenting on everything. For example: pretty much any time someone uses the words "work" or "energy."

Actually, this is something of an odd quirk I find with scientists. For example, I can't watch, say, House with anyone who has studied medicine because they just kinda sit there and shout out the inaccuracies. On the other hand, I have a blast watching, say, Battlestar Galactica with my fellow physics students, and none of us ever get the urge to say things like, "Well, yes, but how do they get around the causality violations which come with faster than light travel? And, besides that, if they have the energy to travel faster than light, why are they using nukes? How are they generating gravity? Ships in space don't move like that." etc. etc.

Further, this is in stark contrast to the amount of research they actually put into the shows. I mean, even in the worst medical shows they wouldn't say something like, "We need a bilateral interpass on his kidney's fourteenth ventricle, or he'll spasmotically anaphalaxiate!" but it's the sort of crap you see in sci fi shows all the time. Fairly simple, common words are misused all the time, "polarity," "circuit," and, "spectral," being some of the worst offenders. Yet, somehow, we still love it.

[LoadedDie]

So, this is a bit of a whale and it's weighing heavily on my mind. For point of reference she is 32 and I'm 26.


So, I met this woman online about 7 months ago now. We were playing World of Warcraft and talked briefly, but it was enough to catch her attention. She would later tell me I had her at hello.

Time passes, I went to different chracters but one day log into the one she met me as. She was energetic, cheerful and excited to see me. We exchanged character names and went from there. Over the months we talked about who we were, what we did, etc.

Late December we got real flirty and eventually exchanged phone numbers and pictures. In January she tells me she is starting to feel an "attatchement" to me. I'm a bit weirded out by this as before her, most of my relationships have been short, abortive attempts with crazy women. She assures me that she is not, I look at my feelings and agree to the arrangement.

Late January, I decided it would be a good idea to meet to see if we were compatible physically. I live in Minnesota, she in Kansas. We set the date for the weekend after Valentine's Day, mostly because she would get President's Day off as she is a teacher. The date is cancelled, she did notify me in advance that it was possible, because her grandfather had a relapse of his cancer. During this time though we talked about futures, getting together, what we wanted, etc. She got out of a long relationship before entering into this one with me. Possibly six or seven years, she'd mentioned that she met him when she moved back to where she is teaching now, where she has been teaching for about seven years. She talks about how she sees us shopping for groceries and me being the one to put random items in just for giggles and about her coming from work, me cooking dinner and then us having a talk about having children. About this point she tells me that she loves me and I, of course, return the sentiment.

We drag into March, she gets busier due to work and calls less and less, morning phone calls get abandoned due to her oversleeping. Late March we get into a disagreement, essentially over when we are going to meet. She tells me that she has a lot of things on her plate, finding a new job, selling the house, relocating, etc. She tells me we should take it slow. She tells me that she is in a funk that she's pushing everyone away.

However, she never wanted to clarify what that meant. The "I love you's", "love" and "sweetheart" terms disappear from her end of the conversation. It's rough, but eventually our conversations start to flow a bit, even to the point where she starts asking how I am again.

On the 6th, I was talking to a guy who she had said was more or less stalking her. He told me that he had been a boyfriend of hers at one time, concurrently with me and during the time she was with me and that there was a third guy also, who had actually shared her bed.

I admit it, I kinda lost it there. I understood that she's trying to figure out her life, but I wanted some measure that I mattered that I wasn't just being used for the emotional support that I could offer. Of course, I went about it all wrong, by asking for that "proof" (which was a phone call, just to hear her voice) I wasn't generating the "warm fuzzies" and only serving to push her further away. She told me that she wasn't ready for another serious relationship at this point, that she didn't deserve my heart or the responsibilities that come with it, she felt that I was judging her and emotionally battered by my comments, she couldn't give me reassurance and it wasn't fair to me to stick around her while she was figuring herself out and that obviously I couldn't handle her when she's like this.

Unfortunately/fortunately, neither one of us actually broke up with the other. I couldn't do it because I don't walk away from problems. Why she didn't/couldn't I don't know, she broke up with the first guy when he delivered his ultimatum: "Call or I'm gone."

I examined myself and have figured that most of my actions have resulted because I have a fear of abandonment, thus when she was pushing for more space I was pushing in so that I wouldn't loose her/she go away. Of course, that little knowledge doesn't let me go back in time about a month and stop this little scenario from playing out.

I did call once right after, but I think she had blocked my number as it just rang and then a busy signal. Haven't called or texted since, but she did send a text that her job interview went well. We've talked a little online, one conversation ended with her saying "We'll talk later okay?" and Easter was just a basic Happy Easter to each other and on Monday we had a brief conversation about working out/exercising, but I haven't talked to her since.

So, that's it. Thanks in advance. Any help, tips, friendly whacks upside the head are all appreciated :)

[Serpentine]

I respectfully disagree.

Warning: language.

Off the top of my head, I can think of one US remake on a non-US film or show that has not been noticably worse than the original. I would be willing to accept that there are more than that, but I doubt there's many.
Also, maybe I didn't watch that properly, but isn't it just about UK vs. US movies, not UK original movies vs. US remakes of perfectly good (or barely mediocre) UK original movies?

Uh...
<.<
>PASHES FLIX<

That's somehow relationship-related, isn't it?

[Pyrian]

Any help, tips, friendly whacks upside the head are all appreciated :)

*Whack!*

Okay, my first thought upon reading all that is that "she's" probably actually a guy. Okay, maybe not really. But you haven't even met this woman you're all tied up in knots about, and based on her behavior she doesn't even want to meet you. I'm not sure from all that whether you're being strung along or just stringing yourself along but either way it seems like you're hoping that that non-relationship is going to "go somewhere" when in all probability it never will.

[Quincunx]

LoadedDie: From someone who's still in a loving internet-to-RL relationship--RUN. Run now.

You can fall in love with someone at first sight if you're talking to them in real life. Over the internet, where one 'hello' looks like every other, I get the mental image of a trap snapping shut over the first object to enter it. This impression did not improve.

Dodging the RL meeting and the calls? Yellow flag.
The initial pursuer weans off of contacting the pursued? Yellow flag.
Trying to make you feel bad for asking for confirmation (confirmation is not "proof")? Red flag.
The third boyfriend trying to warn you off the two-timer or three-timer or frankly-I've-lost-count-timer? Scarlet sheet unfurled from the top of the World Tree!

This woman can be your friend. She might even be one of those great friends who holds you together if you start coming apart. She isn't, and will likely never be, your one and only.

Pyrian: The guys I've run into masquerading as sluts tend to aim younger AND the women that I've run into doing the same tend to this hot-and-cold pursuit as detailed above. I suppose we should all be glad that photos aren't involved.

[averagejoe]

I couldn't do it because I don't walk away from problems.

If pride is the only reason you are still trying to make this work, then you should most likely stop. Without actually commenting on this situation, but just the philosophy in general, if "I don't walk away from my problems" is the only reason you're staying with her, then walking away is the solution to your problem. It is different (and more complicated) if you've bought real estate together or have kids, but without any reason to stay together, both parties do harm to each other in trying to do so.

There are two things that strike me about your post. The first is that it seems possible that a lot of your feelings for her are based on this fantasy the two of you constructed based on this potential future together. It's a natural enough thing to do, but potentially dangerous, in that it's rather easy to become infatuated with the idea of someone rather than the person themselves. You imagine the life you will have, and maybe even some of the actions and conversations, and it's all awesome in your head, but it's unlikely to happen, and a serious relationship needs something more than that.

The other thing that strikes me is that it seems possible that you're looking for validation from other people, and so you might be hesitant to break things off. However, a relationship isn't something you can use to fix a problem within yourself. It really never works. If this is just because you want validation or acknowledgment from her then that is, frankly, a wrong reason to be trying to maintain this.

These are just things to consider; I'm just trying to focus your thoughts on certain things which I think might be helpful to think about. You probably already have the information you need to make a clear decision, you just have to think about it clearly.

Off the top of my head, I can think of one US remake on a non-US film or show that has not been noticably worse than the original. I would be willing to accept that there are more than that, but I doubt there's many.
Also, maybe I didn't watch that properly, but isn't it just about UK vs. US movies, not UK original movies vs. US remakes of perfectly good (or barely mediocre) UK original movies?

Well, I was being a little silly. The first bit of the sketch was him portraying a hypothetical British film, then portraying the same film as done in America, in which they add a gunfight and a lot of shouting.

In truth, I don't actually believe I've seen a British movie stacked up against an American remake, but I must admit a fondness for British cinema, probably more so than American. I just can't admit that to you foreigners.

Oh, wait, that Pride and Prejudice remake was pretty awful, especially compared to the 1995 one. Gosh but Colin Firth makes me question my sexuality.

[xPANCAKEx]

LoadedDie

i was going to tell you to run for the hills before i even read Quincunx's response.... have to agree definate red flags going on. Plus - and i hope you don't take the criticism that is about unfurl personally (its not an attack on you, but on her) - she sounds f*#@$%g mental.

she latched onto you REAL damn quick.
she said i love you without ever meeting you

Now i have to ask, when you return the affection, where they your honest feelings, or did you feel that her emotional honesty diserved a similar response. It may be worth examining your feelings to make sure you're not

It sounds heavily like she loves the fantasy and the chase, but the minute you return that it got out of her depth so shes moving away. It doesn't come across that she is emotionally ready, or capable, of starting and sustaining a relationship

she just doesn't seem to be providing or caring for ANY of your emotional needs anymore - and that, in the end, will always lead to heartbreak

this whole "I don't walk away from problems" principle, while all very admirable, is going to cause you a lot of heartache. You have to examine what the greater problem is here - and unfortunately i think your inability to move away from an emotionally damaging situation before it gets worse far outweighs the breakdown of your relationship/potential relationship with her.

[Serpentine]

Well, I was being a little silly. The first bit of the sketch was him portraying a hypothetical British film, then portraying the same film as done in America, in which they add a gunfight and a lot of shouting.

Ah, gotcha. Fairy Nuff.

In truth, I don't actually believe I've seen a British movie stacked up against an American remake, but I must admit a fondness for British cinema, probably more so than American. I just can't admit that to you foreigners.

Actually, I'm not sure how many British movies I've seen USified. None really come to mind. Perfectly Good British Sitcoms Ruined, on the other hand...

Um... Sorry, Die. I got nothin' I think you might be best to just concluded it, get it over and done with.

[LoadedDie]

Pyrian: Yea, she's female. Webcam, phone, etc. At this point it probably is me stringing myself along, 'specially since she hasn't shown any warmth since early March.

Quincunx: Run, but how? Call and break up with her? Just disappear? But I'm also wondering is why? Why would she do this? I mean she genuinely cared about my home life or at least seemed to. My Mom visiting is a stressful occasion, and when she knew she would be she'd always ask how I was doing or how my Dad was. She'd ask how my Dad could put up with the things she did. That's the thing, sex was actually a small part of the equation. No dirty pictures, no dirty webcam chats. She's always said the conversation was the attraction, the way I talked, how I said things, the way my voice sounded. Little cute vocal quirks. I've wondered if the possible depression might have something to do with it, in that aspect her actions make sense, but at the same time, if it's an act, it's just cruel.


averagejoe: Well, yea, you've probably hit my nail on the head with pride. I'm not sure what you mean by validation though. Probably the picture we painted no longer meshes with her reality, which might be part of the problem. Thus I'm no longer relevant.

xPANCAKEx: I had that feeling for awhile. After we "committed" she no longer felt the need to upkeep it or at least not regularly. The first meet was one thing, but since I kept pushing for it, she kept moving farther away. Since, I guess, doing so would mean the relationship would be real. You're probably right I guess, if she's doing this maybe she is a bit mental. Not that it really helps me, she just gets to be another crazy woman I fell for. Seriously...all the time... Now, it's just my own heart being used as a weapon.

Why play the victim? To keep me around? Are her words chosen carefully to produce this response? Or as she says, she seriously doesn't know what she wants or where she wants it, so she's just sampling and shopping?
Shadows and secrets, she gets really testy when someone reveals aspects of her private life. She got miffed that I was talking to the guy she dumped once. To keep us all separate possibly.

[Quincunx]

Heh. Here I may be the wrong person to ask, since there might be a salvageable friendship and I'm more likely to burn bridges.

Now as to why, I'm bound to my own experience. I got tangled in between two RL 'nice guys' and tried to keep them both happy since neither one deserved heartbreak. It took me a humiliating long time to figure out that relationships do not work that way*--that the amount of unhappiness dished out by such split relationships, like the waning interest and the flaky inability to prioritize one guy to the point of making sacrifices for him, exceeded the amount of happiness provided by maintaining two relationships. Once I got that through my head, it became much easier to harness that necessary unhappiness and power a break-up with it, and then to prioritize a single, proper intensity of relationship. (More cruel answers are available for "why?", but let's go with this best-case scenario for now.)

Avoiding someone on the internet is problematic at best, even if she ends up pursuing you. Dropping the bombshell of "This romantic relationship we have--" (insert female reaction here) "--is making me unhappy--" (insert female reaction here) "--and all I want is friendship." (insert female reaction here) may be the way to go about it, but have some people pick this apart first! If my "why" is also hers, the reactions will be yes we do/that's not what I meant to do!/oh, well. . .um. . .that's a relief? [EDIT: Of course/but what about MY feelings/what I want is-- ! would be a red flag for more cruel reasons.] [EDIT_02: Suggest that she live on her own, independent as a woman should be, for awhile and see what transpires.]

*Polyamorous people are kindly invited to not put their two cents in at this time--I'm trying to make a point.

[LoadedDie]

Avoiding someone on the internet is problematic at best, even if she ends up pursuing you. Dropping the bombshell of "This romantic relationship we have--" (insert female reaction here) "--is making me unhappy--" (insert female reaction here) "--and all I want is friendship." (insert female reaction here) may be the way to go about it, but have some people pick this apart first!

Your statement does imply that we are talking on the phone and not online, thus bringing up a question of how I talk to her on the phone when she is possibly screening her calls.

I'm a bridge burner myself, but what attracted me and kept me there, is/was her personality, the friendship aspect. The dreams we talked about aren't why I'm still here I think. They're nice and all, but it's the little things about her, her laugh, her dedication to her career, I think those things are awesome. Probably why she asked if I was seeing anyone, since I had acted like it didn't matter. Might have also become my problem too, I got too attatched myself and establishing that healthy distance made her loose interest. I enjoyed that friendship part, and then went for a heck of a ride :P

Your suggestion is actually what I've been thinking about doing, so anyone feel free to toss in some ideas. I'm not sure I can actually reach her on the phone so this conversation will probably happen online. I'm not sure how her response would be, I mentioned that I had flirted with some women while I was out with some friends and she had mentioned that perhaps I should go with that.

[EDIT: Of course/but what about MY feelings/what I want is-- ! would be a red flag for more cruel reasons.] [EDIT_02: Suggest that she live on her own, independent as a woman should be, for awhile and see what transpires.]

Your first edit...uh what do you mean by cruel reasons?

Your second edit makes sense and lets her do her own thing. I've felt for awhile now, no matter which way she has been leaning, that whatever we have/had has been adding pressure. Since when we argued the second time she pretty opened with when I push her about these things it only pushes her further away.

One of the things I've been wondering and since I've been reading the internet, have I just become too much of a wuss for wanting my feelings addressed and thus became no challenge to her at all?

[averagejoe]

averagejoe: Well, yea, you've probably hit my nail on the head with pride. I'm not sure what you mean by validation though. Probably the picture we painted no longer meshes with her reality, which might be part of the problem. Thus I'm no longer relevant.

"Validation" might have been an unfortunate word; I wasn't sure what to use. I was responding to: "but I wanted some measure that I mattered that I wasn't just being used for the emotional support that I could offer," and similar comments, like your talk of fear of abandonment.

[Syka]

British versus American- See Life on Mars. I haven't watched the entire British series but I have seen most of the American one and part of the British. I liked both, but from what I understand the British version kinda flailed about and ended unsatisfactorily in the second season. The American one just ended after only one season and I was highly impressed. The main actor in the British one was better than the American one, but the supporting cast I thought was superior in the American one.

Both were good, but I preferred the American version. This is weird for me since I usually prefer the originals, like I refuse to see Quarentine since it's a bastardization of [REC], love Japanese horror (NOT the crap they repackage it as in America), and have an unhealthy obsession with British humor.

On non-married long term couples- they can't really track the break ups of non-married couples since, ya know, there is no actual record of their relationship (such as marriage licenses). However you can take a sample of married couples, ask if they lived together prior to marriage, etc. I'm not saying they break up more or less than married couples and it would be really interesting to try and compare it. But right now I can't see it being feasible.

And as THAC0 pointed out, the engagement thing only holds if there is a definite date set.

Cheers~

[LoadedDie]

"Validation" might have been an unfortunate word; I wasn't sure what to use. I was responding to: "but I wanted some measure that I mattered that I wasn't just being used for the emotional support that I could offer," and similar comments, like your talk of fear of abandonment.

Then in a way you are correct, I think? I wanted some validation to the relationship, which she pretty much had said that she couldn't offer any reassurance at this time. Which is why I am confused. If she was truly stringing me along, wouldn't she try and offer some? During the second argument/fight she said that a true relationship is a partnership and she doesn't feel she can be a full partner right now. Provided I didn't go and blow a big hole in it, it seems to imply that there might be something there but she can't do anything about it.

That's why I'm so confused, I've been strung along before and it was all teasing, but at the same time, having me wait till she's done with her job, selling the house, etc could just be a big tease but in a different way. Or it couldn't be. Probably why a couple of the responses is just to run far far away...

[Felixaar]

Uh...
<.<
>PASHES FLIX<

That's somehow relationship-related, isn't it?

I can't pick which of the great lines I'd use if this were to happen in real life, but that doesn't really matter since I wouldn't be able to talk at that point.

On an unrelated note, this thread needs to discuss Pashing and US v. UK Movies a lot more.

...Oh, right! The advice giving!

LoadedDie, sound's like she's a bit of a lost cause, mate. I would just officialy say "Okay, this is over," and try to retain some sort of friendship - otherwise, I gotta say, this could have disastrous consequences for you. It just seems far to psychologically unhealthy to make continued romantic interaction a wise course. Best of luck.

[Quincunx]

. . .I didn't go and blow a big hole in it, it seems to imply that there might be something there but she can't won't do anything about it. . .

"Can't" is what you say when there's one relationship already and the task is impossible. "Won't" is 'available but unwilling to extend the effort'.

Now, just to be curious, have all of these teasing relationships prior to this started with you pursuing, or being pursued?

[LoadedDie]

"Can't" is what you say when there's one relationship already and the task is impossible. "Won't" is 'available but unwilling to extend the effort'.

Now, just to be curious, have all of these teasing relationships prior to this started with you pursuing, or being pursued?

Heh, this is a bit of a "won't" situation isn' it?

Actually...now that I think on it....yes....all have started with me being pursued in some fashion. This would be the first that has gone this far...but yea...

Felix: Aye, I think I have to agree with you.

[loopy]

At the risk of getting a beat down, I'm happy to report that everything is going well with my relationships atm.

Aside from a slight panging for a girlfriend, and the fact that this girl I like just got a new boy *sigh*. But hey, you can't have everything, and I have beautiful girls of my own, haha. :)

I've come to the unfortunate conclusion that I'm something of a womaniser/player, with the proviso that I do actually care deeply about all the girls I'm flirting with. It isn't my fault that they are all beautiful!

[hawkboy772042]

Here's some background before I get to the question:

I decided to go to Israel for 6 months to work on a farm and met a girl(that was going to Australia for 6 months) in Tel Aviv. When I went out on a date with that girl, things went really well and when we started making out in her car, she did not want to go to the back seat... I inquired about why she didn't want to and she said that was because she wanted a more substantial relationship with me even though I'm likely to have returned to the US by that time.

While there is a chance that I may stay in Israel, I still wonder if it's worthwhile pursuing a relationship with her even if I choose to stay.

[Serpentine]

British versus American- See Life on Mars.

This would be the one lone example I could think of.

On non-married long term couples- they can't really track the break ups of non-married couples since, ya know, there is no actual record of their relationship (such as marriage licenses). However you can take a sample of married couples, ask if they lived together prior to marriage, etc. I'm not saying they break up more or less than married couples and it would be really interesting to try and compare it. But right now I can't see it being feasible.

It should be easy enough to do a survey of relationship histories, which would cover all this stuff. At least in Australia, Centrelink records could possibly be useful, too, though they'd possibly be 1. privacy protected and/or 2. biased towards whatever relationship histories involve the biggest pay-out.

Good for you, Loopy Just remember: All the care and good intentions in the world can't stop things from going weird and/or sour

Do I use and/or too much? Is it a sign that I'm indecisive?

[Felixaar]

Just remember: All the care and good intentions in the world can't stop things from going weird and/or sour

Rather, they often have the reverse effect

Loops - glad to hear you are happy with it all. Not that I really condone womanising, but, hey, consenting adults and closed doors and all that. Flight suit UP!

Hawkboy - depends. Are you actually interested in maintaining a relationship with this girl? Or are you just in it for the "back seat"? Not judging, but that makes a big difference in what the better course of action is - if you'd actually be interested in something long term, then yeah, go for it, but if you're really only there for activities of a more physical nature, it's probably better to find someone who is of a similar mind - she sounds like the kind of girl who wants a strong emotional attatchment, and faking that up until you had sex and then leaving her because you don't really care would be a pretty jerk-face kind of thing to do.

[Pyrian]

But I'm also wondering is why? Why would she do this? ... I've wondered if the possible depression might have something to do with it... ...if she's doing this maybe she is a bit mental. ... Why play the victim? To keep me around? Are her words chosen carefully to produce this response? Or as she says, she seriously doesn't know what she wants or where she wants it, so she's just sampling and shopping?

Which is why I am confused. If she was truly stringing me along, wouldn't she try and offer some? ... That's why I'm so confused, I've been strung along before and it was all teasing, but at the same time... Or it couldn't be.

Don't get so hung up on why other people do the things they do. If they won't tell you right off the bat, they probably never will, and even if they do, they might very well be lying.

Instead, you have to decide for yourself what treatment you're willing to receive, to accept. And, if you're getting treated in a way that's not acceptable, that's an answer in itself - "why" is already beside the point.